It’s week 9 of the 2009 NFL Season. As it stands only 2 teams are undefeated, The Indianapolis Colts and the New Orlean Saints. Of the 2, the Saints are the stronger with a better defense.
Today’s big showdown is Eagles vs. Cowboys at 8:20 PM EST on NBC. This is a battle for the NFC East.
This matchup between the Dallas Cowboys and Philadelphia Eagles isn’t nearly as big as the last one. Still, it always seems meaningful when these archrivals play, and the 100th meeting is certainly no different.
A few weeks after both teams seemed headed in the wrong direction, the Cowboys and Eagles have gotten back on track but only one will leave Lincoln Financial Field on Sunday night alone atop the NFC East.
This should be a good game.
Green Bay comes down to Tampa to take on the pathetic Bucs. This game will be broadcast on TV locally so I will be stuck watching this crappy game. The Packers will win this one big.
Monday Night the big showdown is Denver Broncos vs. The Pittsburgh Steelers. Both are top AFC teams and this could be a playoff Preview. We will see if the Bronco offense can overcome the Steel Curtain.
Here is a week 9 Analysis.
Enjoy the Games and discuss any Sports or Non Sports topics.
This is also an Open Thread, so any topic is encouraged.
► Hot Links
Wake me up when the Bills have a new owner.
I love fresh new open threads. The possibilities are endless! Hey rightside how are you doin?
@ bellamags:
Hello, bella! Doing fine thanks. I didn’t mean to sound disparaging on the last thread about FB… wasn’t my intention.
I see your new gravatar, but have to say I liked the old one
How are you?
The NFL and the USO just put on the best NFL PreGame Show EVER! They were in Afghanistan with our troops.
yay, Arizona Cardinals game is about to start. totally inconsistent team but i gotta support the home team.
@ Rightside:
I’m good. I decided to put a pic of the REAL Bella up. I feel safer that way. I understand your FB remarks. My sister tried to get me to sign up a LONG time ago and I kept telling her NO WAY, I hate that sh*t. But I did because I wanted to keep up with family then I realized its a great political information melting pot. Most of my discussions are politics with the occasional “I’m eating a tuna sandwich” status update. LOL. I have met a LOT of people online that are like minded. A few would give up to the minute reports from the tea-parties and demonstrations in Washington. Kind of a cool resource.
I was a friend of Dr. Marc Lamont Hill’s a while ago. He keeps up his own page and would write his own status updates. I friended him to see what he was really like, outside the world of TV and to get opposing views and opinions. I deleted him off of my friends list when I realized he really was that racist and hate filled off the air as well. EVERYTHING was whitey’s fault. I’m not surprised he is off of FOX news.
holy cow! Bears Harris ejected from the game for slugging a Cardinal in the head. wth is wrong with people???
I hear Obama and I get physically ill. Will the bill cover this pre-existing condition?
@ bellamags:
yeah, i thought Clinton made me sick. ha!
yay! Arizona touchdown!
@ bellamags:
I hear you.
I am just getting so disgusted by what zero and his minions are doing to this country on purpose. This healthcare bs, forcing us to buy into that crap? No f*cking way. If that garbage becomes law, I will humiliate anyone I meet who voted for that manchild.
@ Rightside:
actually, they deserve humiliation based on what he’s already done.
oh no, Bears touchdown.
@ Kirly:
True, but I will actively go find them. In my line of work, many of us are very conservative. But there are a few persons that I know personally who voted for him, based on one thing.
Rightside wrote:
You know I was thinking the exact same thing the other day. Let’s blame the ones who VOTED in this administration. The whole thing. Congress, Senate and the White House. Uneducated, intolerant, spineless voters who voted in all these people that vowed to bring them hope and change and free shit. They were promised things, their worries were soothed, they were finally getting Bush out of office. They hated Palin, hated McCain. Thought McCain wasn’t conservative enough, Palin wasn’t smart enough. They were fooled. Blame them. The politicians are just doing what they do.
@ Rightside:
if that one thing is race, then they’re racists.
@ bellamags:
The real Snork is my cat, but I wouldn’t want everyone to think I’m some sort of cat dude. It’s a guy thing. You wouldn’t understand.
snork wrote:
I understand… this is for you.
this is nasty so if anyone is easily offended don’t click on this link.
http://www.someecards.com/card/owning-a-cat-lowers
bellamags wrote:
Cover it? hell, it’ll make it worse.
@ snork:
(but i really don’t have anything against men who own cats. As long as they don’t dress them in little cat clothes, its all good)
@ Kirly:
*cough* *cough* *points at you, and touches my nose*
This person was in the Navy with me for over 20 years.
@ bellamags:
That’s funny! I’m a cat owner, and it’s hilarious!
@ bellamags:
Well, in that case, she’s not really a cat. Just sort of looks like a cat, but the tail is too long, and the reflexes are weird, and she’s really a Peruvian Lemur-haha. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
@ Rightside:
One of those douche bags is my brothers sister-in-law, I already told that bitch I never wanted to see her or talk to her again.
@ Rightside:
yikes. i wonder if he approves of the giddy prez0 blathering on for 2 minutes on Thursday before getting serious and addressing the Fort Hood shooting. it was worse than clinton and his laughing and joking and then wiping a tear from his eye. These people are despicable.
So does this health care bill mean that my soon to be 22 year old son will have to buy insurance or face jail time/fines? He only works as a cook in a bar for God’s sake!
Oh, and GO STEELERS!! (tomorrow)
snork wrote:
LOL that’s funny.. This is long and maybe you have seen this but its still funny:
Excerpts from a dog’s daily diary:
8:00 am – Dog food! My favorite thing!
9:30 am – A car ride! My favorite thing!
9:40 am – A walk in the park! My favorite thing!
10:30 am – Got rubbed and petted! My favorite thing!
12:00 pm – Lunch! My favorite thing!
1:00 pm – Played in the yard! My favorite thing!
3:00 pm – Wagged my tail! My favorite thing!
5:00 pm – Milk Bones! My favorite thing!
7:00 pm – Got to play ball! My favorite thing!
8:00 pm – Wow! Watched TV with the people! My favorite thing!
11:00 pm – Sleeping on the bed! My favorite thing!
Excerpts from a Cat’s Daily Diary….
Day 983 of my captivity…
My captors continue to taunt me with bizarre little dangling objects. They dine lavishly on fresh meat, while the other inmates and I are fed hash or some sort of dry nuggets.
Although I make my contempt for the rations perfectly clear, I nevertheless must eat something in order to keep up my strength.
The only thing that keeps me going is my dream of escape. In an attempt to disgust them, I once again vomit on the carpet.
Today I decapitated a mouse and dropped its headless body at their feet. I had hoped this would strike fear into their hearts, since it clearly demonstrates what I am capable of. However, they merely made condescending comments about what a ‘good little hunter’ I am. Bastards..
There was some sort of assembly of their accomplices tonight. I was placed in solitary confinement for the duration of the event. However, I could hear the noises and smell the food. I overheard that my confinement was due to the power of ‘allergies.’ I must learn what this means and how to use it to my advantage.
Today I was almost successful in an attempt to assassinate one of my tormentors by weaving around his feet as he was walking.. I must try this again tomorrow — but at the top of the stairs.
I am convinced that the other prisoners here are flunkies and snitches. The dog receives special privileges. He is regularly released – and seems to be more than willing to return. He is obviously retarded.
The bird has got to be an informant. I observe him communicating with the guards regularly. I am certain that he reports my every move. My captors have arranged protective custody for him in an elevated cell, so he is safe. For now…
NoThreat2U wrote:
The good news is it will be a premium based on what you make rather then what you get. The bad news is the rate will be 110% of total unadjusted gross income within two years.
@ Kirly:
I honestly think that the only thing matters to them is that we now have a half black president. Period.
Yes, they are. Bastards.
This SOB president makes W sound like W F Buckley.
@ Rightside:
racists are despicable regardless of their motivations.
woohoo! Arizonas 3rd touchdown!
Gag. Blecccccccccccccchhhhhhh.
Excuse me.
Redskins.
Bad.
Pitiful.
Is the Telegraph a reliable source of information?
I hate waiting for 3pm games … I hope the Saints can remain undefeated but the Panthers have a strong running game. The Saints have a few key injuries affecting their defense on that, so I hope the backups and Gregg Williams (Saints D coordinator) can shore up for it.
@ bellamags:
It’s one of the better British papers. Definitely better than Al-Guardian. It’s not a tabloid, if that’s what you’re getting it.
Don’t worry about the Panthers. They could barely eke out a win against the Redskins. You know. The same Redskins that lost to Detroit and Kansas City.
*sob*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6526030/Fort-Hood-gunman-had-told-US-military-colleagues-that-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html
@ bellamags:
I blame his killing spree on political correctness and liberals who worship at its altar
@ Rightside:
yep
Rightside wrote:
One Army doctor who knew him said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim soldier had stopped fellow officers from filing formal complaints.
@ bellamags:
Here’s the most damning paragraph in the whole piece:
Right there. Was afraid to do the right thing because of PC retaliation. This is 100% unadulterated caca de vaca.
snork wrote:
GMTA
bellamags wrote:
Uncredible.
Extra Point
Lieberman talking to Chris Wallace right now about it.
@ bellamags:
Chrissy’s leg is probably tingling at the thought of it…
@ Rightside:
They have not only tolerated this vicious ideology, but have actively encouraged it. They have opened wide the doors to immigrants espousing anti-Western hatred; they have bent over backwards to accomodate their every whim and not demand assimilation; they have allowed the Saudis to plant Salafi extremist mosques all over the country; they have rolled out the red carpet for radical imams; they have turned a blind eye to the anti-semitism and anti-Americanism taught in Muslim schools. Then they pretend that people associated with these mosques are not a problem.
And no one is allowed to object to all this without being ridiculed and demonized.
@ bellamags:
Having spent the past 30 years in the Army, I can absolutely believe that.
I also understand why he was sent to Ft Hood instead of being separated from the service. It’s always easier to push your problems onto someone else than to deal with them.
There’s a lot of effort involved in getting rid of problem Soldiers (especially officers). Trust me on this. I speak from experience.
@ wolfie:
Well said.
@ Rightside:
It’s called human sacrifice unto Baal. To hold unto their imaginary reality and unhinged beliefs, the gated-community ones in power see it is done.
It seems ever since Cheney was side-lined it has only gotten worse.
First thing to do, would be to call the JCS before congress from hearings. Have them explain how this could have happened. All the warning signs, and no one does a thing.
Force them to admit the culture of fear of reprisal in reporting moooslims as being radical.
Force zero to make a policy decision, and put out a directive to his JCS, that our armed forces must not be afraid to report warning signs, as we’ve all been trained to notice. Even if they are moooslims.
@ Kirly:
That is exactly right. Racists are people who consider race the most important, or one of the most important feeatures a person has; I am not sure where it slips into racism, though. Someconcern? is that really the right word? I’ll use it, some concern about race is probably acceptible, but I am not certain how much is permissible.
Certainly the people who voted for Obama solely because he is black are dispicable racists. People would have no trouble calling someone who voted for McCain solely because he is white a racist. Why are Obama supporters some how exempt?
Feh. I despise racism and racists. I always have.
@ Rightside:
It sounds like Joe Lieberman is all over this. Expect it to happen. And watch the donkeys not know what to do.
@ Iron Fist:
let’s pretend a prominent black conservative were nomitated for president. If other black did not vote for him, would they be racists?
lobo91 wrote:
I believe that. Do you know what the process is if someone suspects a solider of being a “problem”?
@ snork:
They plan to do their best to downplay the truth and push a combination of the “scared to deploy” and “unfairly ridiculed” angles as motivation for the attack.
And anyone who tries to bring up the truth will be slimed.
@ Rightside:
It would have been very interesting if Powell had run in ’96. Hypothetically, let’s say he got the R nomination and ran against Clinton. I really have to wonder how the black vote would have split. It would have been very, very illuminating.
@ bellamags:
That’s kind of a broad term. “Problem Soldiers” are most often people who don’t show up on time, do a poor job, are unable to be trained to standard, have substance abuse problems, etc. I’ve never had to deal with one who was spouting jihadist ideology during what was supposed to be a professional development session.
The fact that these incidents have been reported in various media outlets tells me that Hasan’s views and behavior were not secrets. His chain of command had to know.
Dealing with him was their responsibility, which they abdicated by sending him to Ft Hood.
His former superiors at Walter Reed should be composing their resignations right about now.
I just got my divorce paperwork done. whew…
lobo91 wrote:
I would say so.
@ snork:
That would have been interesting. I don’t think that there is any question Powell could have had the nomination that year. I am not a huge Powell fan, but then I wasn’t a McCain fan, either. Either of them would have been better than what we have.
Yep, I heard many people express happiness that at last we had a black president. If he wasn’t black, every blunder he made would have been noticed and commented on. 57 states for example. Can’t even imagine Hillary making an error like that.
@ bellamags:
When I said “should be,” the implied rest of the sentence was, “if they had any sense of responsibility.”
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that they do.
I still expect to see a coverup, and not just by the media.
Very scary that one puny muslim man can have that much influence inside of the US military.
@ Iron Fist:
Seriously can think of anyone who would have been worse?
@ teacake:
Hillary just overcharges buttons.
Anyhow, all the things people on the left think they are going to get because of obama, I doubt will really happen. Gay marriage? What other things are all so important to the left? I’m still too upset to even think straight.
@ Iron Fist:
Powell might have been able to get the nomination in ’96, but I doubt that he would have beaten Clinton. Clinton was still extremely popular at that point, and Powell’s RINO tendencies would have come out during the campaign.
Why would anyone vote for Dem lite when they can have the real thing?
@ lobo91:
Lobo, the cover up began even before he shot anyone. I saw an article today that said they still haven’t charged him because they still don’t have a motive.
@ waldensianspirit:
LOL, translating isn’t as stupid a mistake as someone who is SUPPOSEDLY a US citizen.
@ teacake:
I don’t think there’s any great hurry to formally charge him. He’s not much of a flight risk at the moment.
It will be interesting to see what he has to say when he wakes up (assuming that he does).
@ snork:
My guess is that he might have gotten about 30%, at best. Clinton was the first black president, y’no! Very popular with blacks until his wife ran against the Obamassiah.
Michael Steele did fairly well running for the Senate in Maryland in 2006. IIRC, he got over 25% of the black vote. That was a baaaad year for the GOP label, so that’s not too shabby a showing. And Steele is more conservative than Powell….(which isn’t saying much!)
@ teacake:
Translating Indonesian can get messy too
@ kansas:
Denis Kucinich would have been worse than the Zero. Propbably much worse. OTOH, Kucinich might not have had as much success getting his agenda through the Congress, but Obama has problems with that, too. Both of them suck pretty hard, though.
I’ve never used the expression “we’re screwed” before.
Guess what. We’re screwed.
Oh…and go Cowboys.
@ lobo91:
Here’s a prequel for what he’ll say:
@ lobo91:
That is a good point, but I think Clinton was beatable in 96. Dole was the most awful candidate for President that has ran in my lifetime, and I can’t think of anyone worse in history. The frucker barely showed up. The Republicans have to do better than him and McCain.
waldensianspirit wrote:
And most of the country will reply “F**K YOU” to that! Oh wait a minute, they already have.
Good afternoon, y’all.
Iron Fist wrote:
Calling him a fruit?
lobo91 wrote:
Not about flight risk Lobo. The army guy said they still don’t know his motives! To me this means they have to be ultra PC about this as to not inflame CAIR and the such. No doubt they have been hearing from CAIR too.
@ Macker:
If he wakes up, I’ll spring for his breakfast. A heaping plate of pork chops, bacon and eggs. Force fed.
@ Iron Fist:
The Republicans are so out of touch they’re likely to try Lindsey Graham next.
They still think it is a matter of being the lesser of two evils so they can rebag the public till their way again.
The Telegraph’s on a roll:
Bloodless President Barack Obama makes Americans wistful for George W Bush
Ding x 11ty.
Iron Fist wrote:
The problem with the Republicans is that, all to often, they go with the “next guy in line”. That was the case with Dole as well as McCain. They rarely stray from that practice; W was an exception to the rule.
waldensianspirit wrote:
Hahaha. Good one. How he became Senator is the head scratcher to me. Are people in Chicago big union sorts? Never mind…. forgot about Daly &co
I really was rooting for Sarah.
@ MacDuff:
W was still among the anointed, though. I mean, what could have possibly gone wrong from nominating the Yalie son of a former president?
@ Iron Fist:
The MSM heavily favors Democrats and leftists no matter who they are, but they would not have slobbered all over Kucinich, nor would they have pimped his policies so blindly.
Above all, no one would be able to call the criticism of Kucinich RAAAAAAAACIST. Centrists wouldn’t be paralyzed by guilt/fear and would join the public outcry.
I would MUCH rather have Kucinich as POTUS. Easy target.
(Kucinich, of course, could not have been elected in the first place because he was widely KNOWN to be a radical leftist. But we’re playing at hypotheticals.)
teacake wrote:
The fact that he was a procuct of the currupt Chicago Political machine should have disqualified him in the minds of any honest person.
They didn’t invent political coruption in Chicago, but they did perfect it.
@ teacake:
Obama became a Senator because the Chicago Dem machine convinced a judge to unseal the records of Jack Ryan’s divorce proceedings shortly before the election. When the salacious details came out, it sunk Ryan’s candidacy. Alan Keyes came in and took over as the Republican candidate at the last minute, and was soundly trounced.
Prior to 2008, Obama had never actually run in a contested election. He was basically handed every office he’s held.
Seems the nation is too extremely polarized to find someone in the middle that could make most people happy. I actually understand not wanting an old fashion old white guy, but going with MTV sort of thugs is insane. I saw something that compared the two campaigns… the Dems used very modern technology and design whereas the R’s sort of remained in the Leave It To Beaver style. Nothing to get excited about. How did McCain get the nom anyhow? Really.
Yow.
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
Goddess, Thanks for putting the prayer list up this morning!
Did you see the message I left on that thread about RedneckNaRocknRollBar? He (she?)got some rough news at the doctor’s and was asking to be put on the list.
@ MacDuff:
LOL until this election I had no idea about Chicago other than the other O and she was the one I think that got him elected in the first place. Right before I got rid of my TV I happened to have that station on since I didn’t have cable…. and heard her introduce her guest as the next president.
Hungry anyone? Right up there with dip chips and salsa.
@ waldensianspirit:
Good God, not the republican version of john edwards!
Geez, I forgot this was the NFL thread.
GEAUX (Unbeaten) SAINTS!
@ bellamags:
Is that part in the Koran somewhere, or is that just some sort of morbid creativity? Either way, it’s just f*cked up. I’ve got to think that any employer in the country would fire you for saying that kind of stuff. Yet somehow the military just shrugged its shoulders? Crazy.
Ya know, having been a witness to wingnuttia’s eagerness to label examples of “Muslims gone bad” as “sudden jihadi syndrome” over the years, and having routinely dismissed it, I’ve got to say that there appears to be something to it here. If all this stuff is really true, then this guy should really be classified as a terrorist. I’m interested to see how this all shakes out when the guy comes to, and what he might have to say. But at this point I have to say that he deserves a firing squad, if anyone deserves it. And I’m pretty anti-capital punishment.
And I hate to admit it, but Malkin makes a pretty good point about all this stuff being reported by the British press. What’s up with that? I mean, I noticed that CNN has been doing a pretty decent job by not ignoring the Islamic extremist as motivation angle, but one scan of memeorandum over the last couple days reveals that it’s the Brits who are doing the uncovering in this regard.
@ wolfie:
{wolfie}
Yes, I did, and I’ve updated the list. I will be posting it every Sunday as its own thread; I will be less likely to miss updates this way!
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
Great idea!
@ waldensianspirit:
Tube snake?
Back to the open thread topic….
I’m getting absolutely creamed in my fantasy football game right now. I don’t even want to look.
Good morning!
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
That’s just wonderful! Bless you!
@ MacDuff:
Is that today or tomorrow? Last Monday was an awesome game.
Just when you thought the moonbats could not sink any lower.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/11/new-british-play-features-jesus-as-transsexual-woman/
@ ChenZhen:
As a matter of fact, yes:
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
{goddess}
@ wolfie:
You’re very kind, but it speaks VOLUMES for this site and its admins that I’ve been invited to do this.
The whole (you know where) imbroglio was very hurtful, but funny enough, it was worth it to have The Blogmocracy now.
@ vagabond trader:
The cowards would never do anything like that with mo. Pussies. When they put a koran in a jar of piss, or have an elephant crap on aisha, then we’ll talk.
Otherwise, they’re yellow-bellied cowards.
@ ChenZhen:
Yes, that is out of the koran (that’s what will happen to all usses infidels when we die).
The Islamic heaven and hell are a lot more physical that Christians and Jews understand them to be. Thus the 72 virgins and the young boys and all that. This is why they shave their bodies that stay on earth. Somehow, they believe that there will be some sort of physical teleportation or something like that.
@ ChenZhen:
Fantasy football? Hah! That’s for wimps!
I go for nightmare football!!!!
(Redskins.)
@ lobo91:
And 2008 differed, how? You basically had McCain campaigning for the fucker when he was telling the voters they didn’t have to be afraid of asn Obama Presidency. Really? McCain was a waste. The only thing he did right was pick Sarah, and I’ve become convinced he picked her with the intention of cutting her off at the knees.
Bastard. I despise McCain.
@ ChenZhen:
He’s a bit mixed up. The head is still on in the quran when the horrible drink is forcibly administered.
Note to get a better understanding of what a polytheist and wrong-doer is, the quran provides the disciples of the Jesus written about by Jewish scribes as the typical polytheists and wrong-doers.
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
We learned some important lessons about some people we considered friends. In the grand scheme of things, they were pretty cheap lessons, although they were painful in their way.
@ Iron Fist:
It didn’t. That was my point. Running a RINO didn’t work in 2008, and it wouldn’t have worked any better in 1996.
woohoo! AZ beating Chicago 41-21!!
@ waldensianspirit:
ISLAM DELENDA EST.
These victims were murdered by idiotic PC run amok. Hasan could have and should have been stopped.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091108/D9BRD8GO1.html
@ waldensianspirit:
That does bring up a common misconception about Islam’s view of Christianity. Many people point to the stuff about Christians being “people of the book,” and thus being accepted, but what they don’t understand is that Islam considers most traditional Christian sects as polytheistic, because of the belief in the Holy Trinity.
Kirly wrote:
They are sure playing like Duhhhhhh, Bears….
vagabond trader wrote:
So are worshippers supposed to use a Host or a Hostess now?
@ lobo91:
Bush wasn’t much different when he was running. I remember him pissing me off saying he’d sign a re-up of the “Assault Weapons” ban. Meaningless noise, since not even the Democrats want to repeat that particular mistake, but words do matter. Bush grew in office after 9-11. He took one of the two real paths available. I’d have chosen the other one, but he may be right. Maybe. We’ll see.
@ vagabond trader:
I wonder if we’ll find out who Maj. Hasan voted for in the last election
@ Macker:
We should have turned Afghanistan into a 21st Century Carthage. With the warning that if the Mohammedans wante to play, we’d play rough. See what happened.
@ Iron Fist:
True.
But we also learned some lessons about ourselves. The majority of us, I believe, stayed past the point that we should have. That is, with very few exceptions, we compromised our own integrity to a greater or lesser extent. That’s something we can learn from. IMHO.
@ Macker:
today they are playing a lot better than duh bears. woohoo!
@ wolfie:
In my own case, definitely.
@ Iron Fist:
At the very most we shouldn’t be “rebuilding” that which we didn’t destroy.
@ waldensianspirit:
lol, still waiting to find out what his medical status is. Odd we know nothing of his condition other than he was shot, put on a vent ,taken off and isn’t communicating.Seriously doubt we’ll be getting much more except perhaps from the Brits who seem to know more than the American media. Fancy that.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Perhaps a Hostess Ho-Ho.
wolfie wrote:
I think a Gramscian Ho will do just fine.
@ waldensianspirit:
i read something the other day (was that here?) that said he had made statements after the election that now that 0 was prez, maybe American policies in the ME would change.
Plus, with him being a member of a Homeland Security panel which advised 0, i’m thinking it’s a pretty sure bet that he voted for 0.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
I see where you’re headed with that. Now they can have twinkie communion.
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
Me too. Very much so.
But now I’m glad that I had the chance to find out about my own weakness.
@ wolfie:
I should have left when he banned Ayatollah Ghilmeini. I knew the guy. Met him at Geepers’ one year. Really great guy. I was reading when he banned him, and I was just WTF? We were better than that, you know? There was a time when LGF was very good. Gone now, of course, but there was a reason I did up colors for us and all.
Ya know, went over to the other place because, well, I need a laugh. Guess what? It just isn’t funny anymore.
@ Kirly:
That is the scariest thing about this. How does a screaming jihadi nutbag get that close to the President of the United States? Apparently there were plenty of signs he was going to do something like this, but they were all ignored. PC bullshit, no doubt. Bullshit that cost 13 people their lives.
ok, the Windows7 7 Word Recap at the end of the game is just stupid. very, very lame.
@ wolfie:
Think of it as a big test, that most failed. The only ones who really passed are @ GCP. I got out earlier than most here, but even I look back with a certain sense of shame.
I’m hopeful of failure of this health care monstrosity in the Senate. While the idiots in the House may only worry about the voters in their districts, the Senators must run statewide – and statewide elections in Jersey and Virginia must be giving them pause, especially if you’re a Dem elected from a traditionally red state state that went for Zero in the general last year.
@ lobo91:
Yea many discussions of this went unappreciated at 1.0. Blog owner wouldn’t say peep so how was I to know he hated my commentary.
@ vagabond trader:
Yup. That’s why you’re seeing less and less attention paid in the form of quotes. They’ve gone from the ridiculous to the banal. And even though all political blogs got a traffic spike over the past few days from news events, the long term trend is still toward oblivion.
@ Iron Fist:
it’s downright criminal and should be treated as such. the people who made excuses for him and kept him in when they should have done something to get him kicked out, should themselves be kicked out. the military is no place for political correctness.
i have 2 nephews who are Marines right now. Even allowing myself to think for a second how i might feel if it had been one of these awesome young brothers is more than i can bear. i do know that i would be wanting someone (or a whole list of people) punished appropriately in addition to the shooter.
oh, you guys know that hasan attended the same radical mosque as some of the 911 hijackers, right?
@ Carolina Girl:
If you look at who’s up in ’10, there’s not much encouragement. Most of the donx are in safe seats. There are a few though, who may be feeling uncomfortable.
The ones up in ’12 maybe be getting a little nervous though, and several of them are from red states.
We’ll just have to see. If Reid tries to pull of the nuke option, it could get ugly.
Iron Fist wrote:
Colors? Like you got an LGF tattoo?
@ snork:
I didn’t join LGF until right after the GCP exodus. People were still whispering about it, but the references were oblique. I never figured out why all those people were canned and/or left, and no one would tell me!
@ snork:
I differ on gcp; many of them wanted the power of the ban stick and desired to be monitor lizards. Since then some have learned better and are good commenters. The start of gcp wasn’t pretty either with the fight over Katrina monies. Most of that is water under the bridge though.
Iron Fist wrote:
His posts were always so good and well thought out.
@ Kirly:
No interest by authorities to investigate a US Army officer attending the hateful mosque but don’t worry we’re still keeping an eye on those blue hairs boarding planes.///
@ vagabond trader:
which would only make sense if the 19 hijackers had been blue hairs.
hi kids
@ Kirly:
Yeah, the people who up-checked this freak should get the axe. It isn’t like this guy had a hidden agenda, or kept quite about his anti-American, anti-Infidel feelings. Yet he continued to be given responsibilities up to and including Homland Security issues. What do you want to bet his being a “Moderate” Mohammedan was seen as a “special” qualification to advise the President? The Obama Administration has shown an appalling lack of sense in choosing subnordinates. Van Jones was a screaming nut, truther, and all around dick, but this is just amazing. It isn’t just people in the military, but also in the Administration that should lose their positions. An Administration that picks advisors like Van Jones and this freak is in bad need of a shakeup. Think about what would have happened if Bush had had an advisor on the Gun Control issue that was a member of the Militia of Montana. Not that anyone in MOM would do this kind of thing, but it is the closest thing I can think of.
Wasn’t w-lover hangin’ at gcp for a bit? Can’t check the old forum but its a IIRC.
@ ChenZhen:
No, not a tat, but PDM and I designed a patch that I had made. I figured you’d seen pictures. They got out on the internet.
@ waldensianspirit:
I thought W-lover was the earlier nic of Sharmuta.
@ Iron Fist:
The other day I suggested that he has received preferred minority victim status treatment from day one starting with his entry to college, fully funded under the Clinton Administration. I was soundly ridiculed but stand by my belief. Clinton was making nice nice with the Jordyptians at the time and I wonder how many others have benefitted from these affirmative action appointments to our schools and military.
yeeee..haaaa hung out with Hennessy girls today,boy did I have fun
@ savage:
Hey savage, where you be?
@ Iron Fist:
Did Babbazee have a picture of that on her blog at one time?
i would like to know how is it possible for the honey-do list to get longer as i finish more and more jobs…
its like a self perpetuating machine…amazing.
back to work!
@ coldwarrior:
You are just too good at what you do CW!
@ vagabond trader:
After all resources need to be focused on returning vets. DHS and 1.0 say so.
@ wolfie:
yep it was.
@ lobo91:
Islam also rejects both the Jewish and Christian Bibles as fabricated and distorted.
@ waldensianspirit:
A POX on them all.
@ Rightside:
There was a pic at FallbackLGF. BabbaZee was one of the original 10 people that ordered patches so that I could make the run.
@ wolfie:
That schism occurred during one of my self-imposed sabbaticals from LGF due to right-wing groupthink fatigue. As a matter of fact I feel another coming on.
Moe Katz wrote:
i get left wing group think fatigue when i watch/read the main steam media. so i can appreciate just how frustrating it is.
bellamags wrote:
I believe that. I said yesterday if the killer had been a white christian ( or even black,) the military would have intervened way before anyone got hurt. They let it go on because the sob was a Muslim.
That has got to stop. We need to start calling these bastards evil and dangerous when they so obviously are. And not even give a second thought to their stone age death screed.
It is sickening that this jihadi was able to kill and maim so many innocent people because no one wanted to appear discriminatory by calling attention to his outrageous behavior.
Another totalitarian czar:
In Venezuela, with Chavez, is really an incredible revolution – a democratic revolution. To begin to put in place things that are going to have an impact on the people of Venezuela.
So like I was sayin’, here’s yer open thread for a Sunday afternoon as I geek out into the void.
yes butfuckchuck you are in the void of no return
bbl…
i’m baking bread. the house smells fantastic!
Iron Fist wrote:
Oh yea. The “minion” patch.
Which one is you?
oops, tried to embed an image. didn’t work out
@ ChenZhen:
I’d be the, um, guy. That would be the one with the bald head
yep
@ chickadee:
whoops. that was chickadee’s quote.
@ coldwarrior:
I get fatigue reading moral equivocations explainin’ that Muslim authorities are just like Christian and Jewish authorities and have the ability to reform their religion yada, yada, they’re all seeking truth and the same G-d, yada, yada, yada. Mean while PC bullshit blood sacrifices good Americans at Ft. Hood.
@ Moe Katz:
Which is a very important and underappreciated point. While (to a first approximation) Christianity simply adopts the Torah as the Old Testament and appends the New Testament, the Koran goes back and tweaks everything, and then piles another layer of incoherent stuff on top of the substrate of revisionism.
If Christian Replacement Theology is odious, what does that make the entirety of Islam?
We’re watching MMA fights wile hanging out, and damn some dude just got a good knockout in. Won the fight standing on his feet. Good show!
@ vagabond trader:
I’m in Southgate at a Starbucks. Trailer isnt gonna be off the train until 3pm PST.
Missed out on a great run, they were gonna send me to Minneapolis. I could have given a blogmocracy shoutout to Sharmuta, face to face. bwahaha
@ vagabond trader:
This was definitely a PC problem, but I’m not so sure that affirmative action played much of a role in his advancement. (Could be, but I dunno.)
He went to a public high school and was in AP honors courses. He got good grades. He spent 2 years at a community college and got an associate degree in science with high honors. He graduated from VaTech with honors in biochemistry. And this was all in the 90′s, before anyone would consider him a minority that had to be “helped,” grade-wise.
This is not an Obama, who had everything handed to him and who has presented no evidence that he ever earned academic promotion.
@ coldwarrior:
Groupthink on either end of the spectrum is a drag. I try to get a spectrum of different media perspectives. Foreign media views on one’s country can be useful at times, too.
OK, if this number is accurate…
Organizing for America, which is under the umbrella of the Democratic National Committee, claims its supporters have made 502,651 phone calls to congressional offices since October 20, all urging the passage of health care reform.
I’m going to suggest that we all start calling at least one member of congress every day. Come on, the numbers are easy to find (http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov) and most people have cell phones that don’t charge extra for long distance.
Iron Fist wrote:
So who is the other, um, person?
Fallback LGF: there a old familiar list
* Buck
* zombie
* Urban Infidel
* Poitiers-Lepanto
* LGFer
* Kragar
* Karridine
@ Moe Katz:
Moe said
now, if the rest of you don’t see the insult to us right here at the blogmocracy… well, look again.
have a nice break moe. don’t hurry back.
@ ChenZhen:
Well, they aren’t here to speak for themselves, so I think I’ll leave that to your imagination.
@ Kirly:
Yeah, I was chewing on my tounge about that one. Have you noticed how much I’ve mellowed over the last five years?
@ snork:
Funnily enough, Rambam considered Islam preferable to Christianity. In his view, Islam was like a bad copy of Judaism; he used the analogy of a false human body that lacked the nerve and sinew connections under the skin to be the real thing. However, he argued that a Jew should die rather than convert to Christanity, whereas it was okay to make an outward conversion to Islam.
Anyone wanna guess why? Because it is, from a Jewish perspective, a lesser blasphemy to say that Mohammed is a prophet than to declare Jesus the Son of God. This was the commonly held Jewish view during classical Islamic times.
Reference: Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, 1984, paperback edition, p. 84.
Back in about 45 min.
@ snork:
It is very sad so many Christians do the replacement theology where some even take it to the point the Mississippi River is the replacement Jordan river.
It is the reason why
was posted so many times at 1.0
@ wolfie:
You miss my point. Quotas are what I’m talking about. As in we need X amount of X in the US army. Find us some.Disagree about the minority issue. Palestinians have been leftist pets much longer than post 9/11.
@ Kirly:
I will try to take as many breaks as are necessary to remain polite and respectful with someone having a mind such as yours. Toodles.
Moe
@ Iron Fist:
Man, you’re welcome to take the cheap shot if you want to. It’s there for the taking
@ vagabond trader:
Oh yeah, as for the jihadis grades got a reputable link?
@ Moe Katz:
I already took an expensive shot:-)
Iron Fist wrote:
An imagination I have, but I guess I won’t go there.
Maybe you could tell me, though, out of the original members of your gang, how many are still active “minions”?
@ wolfie:
There’s formal affirmative action, than there’s the broad concept. In the broad concept sense, Obama was elected by an affirmative action process, and Hasan was tolerated for the same reason.
There should be another term for it when it’s informal, but just as forceful. The insidious thing about PC is that as often as not, it’s enforced by social networks rather than formal policy.
@ vagabond trader:
The Army really doesn’t do much of that. We tend to have enough trouble making recruiting quotas as it is.
As far as I know, he went to VA Tech and got his commission through ROTC there. Not sure if he was on an ROTC scholarship or not. Even if he was, they aren’t that hard to come by, and there aren’t any affirmative action quotas for them.
vagabond trader wrote:
I heard on the Bob Grant radio show this morning that some leftie idiots are referring to the Muslim killer as Dr. Hasan as they try to mitigate the horror of what he did.
Dr. “jihad terrorist” Hasan is he way I would say it.
@ lobo91:
What about promotions in the Army? Quota’s there?
@ ChenZhen:
None. None at all, and doesn’t that speak volumes. I was the last of us to go. I held on way, way past reasonable tolerance. I just didn’t want to see something I had loved go away. This is not, in and of itself anything wrong, but I should have seen what was in front of me before I did.
@ waldensianspirit:
I’d recommend reading one of the excellent books by Norman Stillman or Bernard Lewis on the history of Jews under Islam. It wasn’t multiculturalism, modern style, but for the Middle Ages it wasn’t that bad either most of the time.
@ Iron Fist:
i have. have you noticed how much i’ve unmellowed during that same time?
@ Rightside:
Nope. Anyone trying to tell board members to select someone because of their race or gender would be smacked down pretty hard.
@ Kirly:
Never tell a Lady she has unmellowed. Women are like wine. Both get better with age.
@ Moe Katz:
i see no reason to remain polite to some one outside my country, constantly tells me what is wrong with it, someone outside my religion constantly tells me what is wrong with it, etc. you hate us that much? then don’t stress yourself by talking to us.
have a nice break! have many nice long breaks!
@ lobo91:
Really, they just go handing out full medical school scholarships to just about anyone? From what I understand right up until the here and now the military is anxiously seeking Arabic speakers.They don’t have a quota to fulfill?
As I recall Clinton was CIC when the jihadi joined up and BJ was sure as hell into racial religious ethnic gender quotas PC and ask don’t tell.But hey,I doubt he ever expressed his vision of what the American military should look like to anyone of significance in the ranks because he was so proper.
@ Rightside:
I have had people (civilians) try to tell me that the Army does use affirmative action quotas by pointing to the fact that there actually is an Army Regulation with a title that implies just that. Of course, if they actually read it, they’d find that it was a poor choice of title more than anything else. The Army goes by the principle of equal opportunity, not affirmative action.
@ lobo91:
The Army’s process for choosing who is to be promoted must be different than the Navy does.
I do not have proof, but I would bet a year’s paycheck, somewhere in the pentagon, they decide how many women, minorities, etc. will be promoted.
@ Kirly:
I was defending him before, but you’re right. That’s downright trollish to make that kind of a broadside slam. One hard and fast rule that marks a troll is talking about the entire site as if it speaks with one voice.
As far as I’m concerned, he’s as welcome as SpaceJesus or any other troll by virtue of the general philosophy here, BUT:
1) Now the gloves are off, and
2) his petulance is pitiful. If he chooses not to grace us with his wit and wisdom, he’ll leave a hole here. Just like the hole a boat leaves in the water when you take it out.
@ vagabond trader:
forgot the / at the end.
chickadee wrote:
I wrote the following after the five jihadi doctors engaged in the Glasgow terror plot:
Can You See the Jihadi?
—with apologies to Pete Townsend and the Who
They arrested another doctor
Trying to make jihad.
Planting car bombs on the weekend
Just to make Mohammed glad.
Can you be a jihadi, doctor?
Can you be a jihadi, doctor?
Can ya mmm, can ya
Professionals one after another
And jihad is what they do
Apologists say it’s poverty
But the docs show that’s not true.
Oh can you be a jihadi, doctor?
Can you be a jihadi, doctor?
Can you be a jihadi
Can you be a jihadi
Can you be a jihadi, can ya
Can you be a jihadi
Can you be
@ Moe Katz:
Recommendation not taken. Your phrase “most of the time” speaks volumes over the nostalgia for the caliphate.
Kirly wrote:
they call me mellow yellow.lol
@ chickadee:
I am going to refer to him as the jihadi from now on because it rankles some folks. Especially those who have diagnosed him from afar as being insane.
@ snork:
Otherwise known as a Spicoli floater.
@ vagabond trader:
You’re confusing two different things. He got his commission through Army ROTC at VA Tech, possibly on a scholarship. And while they don’t just “hand them out to anyone,” they aren’t that hard to get if you have decent grades (which I understand he did). Also, we’re talking about the late ’90s. The economy was relatively good, and there weren’t exactly lines of people beating down the recruiters’ doors to get in.
Once he was in, he applied to (and was accepted into) the Uniformed Services Health University, which is a medical school run by the military. There are no “scholarships,” because there’s no tuition. It has a good reputation as a medical school, and isn’t that easy to get into.
That would have nothing whatsoever to do with Hasan, for several reasons. First, he doesn’t speak Arabic worth a damn, according to everything I’ve read. Second, he’s a doctor, not a linguist. I doubt that there’s much call for Arabic-speaking psychiatrists. If there were, he would have been overseas a long tim ago. Finally, he’s been in since before 9/11. There was no great demand for Arabic linguists at that time. As I recall, we were looking for Chinese speakers then.
mellow yellow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCjv2OiTxE&feature=related
@ vagabond trader:
I don’t think you can call him insane. He knew the difference between right and wrong, he just chose to do wrong and call it right. You might define that as evil, but it is not insane.
vagabond trader wrote:
Yes. I think I did miss your point. I agree with you about the army’s probable desire to seek out “diversity.”
I was thinking about “affirmation action” solely in the limited sense of favoritism in academic promotion. Giving the C student A’s, as it were. Admitting the mediocrity to Harvard Law, etc. etc.
I do know a great deal about the Roanoke Valley and Va Tech. (I have actually taught at both Va Tech and at VWCC, the community college he went to. I am also familiar with the high school he went to.) There is no way he would have had any special academic consideration because of his background.
In the first place, back then it seems he was assimilated. He wasn’t running around in funny clothes, thumping the Koran, and whining about being oppressed.
In the second place, “help” is usually given to minorities that leftists, being racists, look down on as stupid, i.e., blacks and Hispanics. (Palestinians may be given a pass for “uncontrollable” barbarity, but they are not considered stupid.)
Third, at Va Tech he’s not exotic. There are so many foreigners in the sciences there that no one would notice or care about his last name, much less give him better grades because of it.
This why I say that, through undergraduate school at least, he probably earned his academic way.
The big question is when he jumped the camel. Was it, as I would guess, when he went to NoVa/DC and got involved in the super-radicalized Muslim community there? I guess we’ll learn more as time goes on.
@ mawskrat:
Yea, I don’t recommend Iron Fist switch his avatar any time soon!
@ Rightside:
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Navy does that. They’ve done some fairly stupid things in that direction over the last 15 years or so. Spending millions of dollars to refit ships in order to accomodate a handful of women comes to mind. So does graduating female pilots who were clearly incapable of performing, only to have them prove it by crashing into the ocean and killing themselves.
I’ve sat on promotion boards several times (although not officer promotions, obviously). I know officers who have sat on DA centralized officer promotion boards, though. I have never heard of anyone trying to put out quotas for promotions based on race or gender.
@ lobo91:
I was using the Arabic speakers as an example of Army quotas,not implying Dr Jihadi was one of these.Frankly unless you personally had the ear of the CIC I am inclined to believe that people like the jihadi,of Palestinian origin, would be highly sought after at the request of a leftist CIC like Clinton or Obama via his aides of course.We’ll never know.
lobo91 wrote:
A VaTech spokesman on our local news said he was not in ROTC at VaTech. (I’m in the area.) They did confirm graduation with honors in biochemistry. Honors would require a 3.5 GPA.
snork wrote:
I commented here once that I never thought I’d see the day I’d be actually GRATEFUL for the Dan Rather lawsuit that kept me from posting at 1.0.
@ wolfie:
According to what I’ve read, it happened after the death of his mother in 2001. Prior to that, he was pretty much “secular” in his beliefs.
He would have been most of the way through med school at that point, which explains a lot. I seriously doubt that anyone who walked around telling people that they were going to hell and would have their heads cut off and boiling oil poured down their necks would have gotten through ROTC, or been accepted into one of the military’s med schools.
They’re palying an Obama Youth commercial on TV. Am I the only person that finds that shit creepy? Imagine the outcry you’d have if Bush had done something similar…
@ Iron Fist:
btw, deciding when to leave or flounce from lgf is an asymptotic problem. There is no perfect time. All of us stayed longer than our first inkling Charles NoDickens was gonna keep letting his inner progressive all raging out.
Well at least The Raiders didn’t lose today. It’s their bye week.
@ wolfie:
That’s why I said “as far as I know.” I’ve heard other stories that said he was.
Whatever the case, while there are certainly officers in the Army (including majors, trust me) who aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, I haven’t seen any evidence that Hasan was any sort of affirmative action type. He appears to have gotten into med school on merit.
@ Iron Fist:
I can’t imagine that Obama Youth will work any better than Enzyte does.
@ waldensianspirit:
Sorry you’re not interested in learning about it. It was what it was, which is better than what the Christian world would offer the Jews for centuries to come.
@ lobo91:
The death of a mother can cause strange changes.
And by then he was up in NoVa/DC, where radical Islam is not only strong, but has close to a monopoly on Muslim institutions.
BTW, according to VaTEch, he was NOT a member of the Corps of Cadets nor involved in ROTC in any way.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
I had to look “Enzyte” up. Lovely
@ Kirly:
No problem, Kirly, I wouldn’t expect politeness from you. Nor would I particularly value it were you to grace me with it, for that matter.
@ Moe Katz:
Here’s a recommendation for you.
@ waldensianspirit:
That’s pathetic.
lol! recommendations often are
@ lobo91:
Yes.
Here you have a reasonably well-assimilated, bright fellow, who might have carved out a fine life for himself.
Then………..
Can someone explain again why we have to allow the Saudis to set up all these extremist mosques and schools?
Yeah. I know. PC. And oil money.
@ snork:
Snork, I don’t miss your defenses of me—I’m not some nice elderly person that couldn’t help farting in church. I see a dominant mentality here that I find frequently very, very offensive to my own values. I can only take so much at a time without commenting on that. You don’t need to make excuses for me. That’s who I am.
@ Iron Fist:
Did you run across the part where it’s a big financial scam, as well?
In order to get the “free trial” they promise on TV, you have to give them a credit card number and sign up for their automatic monthly shipment program, which they tell you you’re free to cancel anytime.
When you call to cancel, they apparently tell you they’re doing it, but the charges don’t stop. They even go to the point of changing the merchant name under which they bill you, if you try to block the charges through your credit card company. Basically, the only way to get them to stop biling you is to cancel whatever card you used and get a new one. Lovely people.
And no, I don’t know this from personal experience. Just what I’ve read online.
@ wolfie:
See that is the problem I’ve had with the concept of “Moderate” Mohammedans. It is like saying “Moderate” Nazis. It doesn’t track.
@ Moe Katz:
Considering that I’m not a left wing fool (like you), I am more than confident that my mind is far superior in it’s ability to recognize and use logic than that puny thing you’re using.
btw, nice potshots at the Christians. Just like every other thread I’ve ever endured your comments in. I sure wish CFnJ would let you back in at lgf. Just get a new nic there. Enjoy.
@ lobo91:
I just figured something like that had to be a scam, so I’m not surprised. My generally low opinion of humanity has once again been validated
@ Kirly:
What potshots at the Christians? This is the medieval world, as it was. Why take that personally?
@ Moe Katz:
so offensive, in fact, that you keep coming back for more.
have a nice break. have a nice LONG break. like until 2050 or so.
@ Iron Fist:
It’s not that uncommon of a story, either (aside from the mass murder of Soldiers part, that is).
Lots of “secular” or “assimilated” Muslims change their views radically after some traumatic event, or after going to visit relatives in “the old country.”
That’s one of the really insidious things about Islam. You really can’t predict who’s going to suddenly decide to go full-bore jihadi at some point in the future.
[* checks calendar*] 21st century and the darkness creeping across the earth is coming from …we have a winner! islam!
@ Kirly:
The Christians evolved and the Muslims didn’t. That is to the Christians’ credit as a civilization. I don’t see why you’d have a problem with that.
@ Iron Fist:
Of course, that’s on top of the fact that the product itself is a scam.
I’m assuming that the reason they’re able to get away with the rest of it so frequently is that people are embarrassed to report them. Sort of like being ripped off by a hooker.
If the military needs Arabic speakers/readers, they really should recruit from Lebanese Christians. The ones I know, though, are reluctant to be involved in either side. They actually think that they are safe from it here in the USA and Canada. Shame that. They really should take sides and fight. imo
I’m an intermittent poster here, and therefore have no particular opinion about any one poster, yet.
I will, however, observe that I have never yet found, on any board, a poster who used a nic based on an aggressively “Jewish-sounding” name who was not a troll.
@ Moe Katz:
Because Christians did not evolve. Christians restituted. Reformation isn’t in the cards.
@ waldensianspirit:
A bigger threat than Communism, really. The Communists were murderous enough, but they didn’t have in ingrained in their “religion” the way Mohammedans did. That is, Communism produced monsters like Stalin, but it did not teach individual communists to be monsterous. Islam does.
@ waldensianspirit:
You see, you should read Bernard Lewis. You’re missing some important concepts, like the distinction between Christianity and Christendom.
Moe Katz wrote:
Actually, this is the medieval world as presented in one work of one scholar as interpreted by one layman.
(Which is not to say whether it is a fair or unfair presentation.)
@ wolfie:
Lewis is pretty representative of the entire literature—also Goitein, Stillman, etc.
Question: What time is the Cowboys/Eagles game to take place?
@ Moe Katz:
Wow, what a massive distinction!
To say that the Muslim world, one thousand years ago, was nominally less miserable to live in if you were not a member of the dominant religion than many areas of the Christian world, means little—except that it is currently possible, by looking at the Muslim world today, to see just how miserable it was to be a member of a religious minority one thousand years ago, because it is still one thousand years ago in the Ummah as far as that is concerned.
@ waldensianspirit:
It most certainly is. And there is another distinction that can me made, effectively, between Islam and ‘Islamdom.’ Christianity and Islam tend to be both a faith and, historically, a polity and these must absolutely not be confounded
@ buzzsawmonkey:
A thousand years ago the Koran still had the shit about sons of apes and pigs in it, not to mention the Jew-hating trees and rocks. Anyway, it doesn’t matter much what they did a thousand years ago. It is what they are doing in the here and now that I judge them on, and find them wanting…
@ Moe Katz:
There ya go — got the equivocation flapping about.
I knew it was in there.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
There’s some truth to that. The world of the dhimmi Jews of Islam is dead now. At its height, it produced Maimonides, Nahmanides, and many others.
@ Iron Fist:
Yes, of course.
@ waldensianspirit:
By equivocation you mean unacceptable complexity.
Had to make up a word but it got it done.
@ Moe Katz:
Nope. Wanna try door #2?
Moe Katz wrote:
No.
The Jews produced sages in both the Christian and Islamic worlds. In both worlds, the greats of Jewish culture existed no thanks to the larger culture; they were products of their own parallel civilization. Rashi and the Gaon of Vilna, to name two, were great sages who lived in the Christian world.
If the record of the sages in the Christian world is less complete, because they were massacred or their works were destroyed, that does not mean that they, too were not products of the Jewish world, not the “host” culture.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
No, the Jewish sages of Islam were embedded in the ideas and the science of the classical Muslim world. There is extensive scholarly literature on the Arabic sources of Rambam’s Guide of the Perplexed. You cannot make any sort of scholarly argument that he stands apart from that cultural context.
…waiting…but eventually out comes Islamic apologetics.
/Not complicated at all. Seen it all before. Touch on the core of islam that claims Jesus wasn’t crucified but instead allah out-schemed the disciples of Jesus[as written about by Jewish scribes] and snuck Jesus away and out comes the apologetics. It further states the disciples of Jesus were the epitome of infidels/polytheists for believing in Jesus crucificion and Resurrection.
Moe Katz wrote:
I certainly don’t see that you’ve made any “scholarly argument” to that effect; you’ve merely made a few unbacked assertions, without citing to anything specific.
And, even if you do ultimately supply what you are so manifestly lacking, what has that to do with the price of beans, or anything else?
@ Moe Katz:
full quote p.84
Since the Muslims were the ruling class conversion to Islam and not to Christianity made sense.
quote 2 p. 102
Maimonides view in respect of conversion to Islam is an answer to an expertise of a rabbi who hold the view that Jews should become rather martyrs then convert to Islam. M. let us know that i) the rabbi lives in good conditions far away from the danger the Jews in Spain under Arab rules bear and ii) that Jews should live with the divine commands not die because of them. He wanted to save Jewish lifes and was a realistic adviser.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
You want sources, I can give you sources. It’s the dominant view in academia. Yes, I do find it tedious, but I’ll give you a couple:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/maimonides-islamic/
Also Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, paperback edition, p. 76 on Maimonides’ choice of Arabic for his philosophical writings.
Lewis’s latest book is called Islam: The Religion and the People.[14] From his research, Lewis draws the following conclusions regarding the history of Islamic culture:[15]
1. “At no time did the (Muslim) jurist approve of terrorism. Nor indeed is there any evidence of the use of terrorism (in Islamic tradition).”
2. “Muslims are commanded not to kill women, children, or the aged; not to torture or otherwise ill-treat prisoners; to give fair warning of the opening of hostilities; and to honor agreements.”
3. “The emergence of the now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century. It has no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition. It is a pity that those who practice this form of terrorism are not better acquainted with their own religion, and with the culture that grew up under the auspices of that religion.”[16]
4. “The fanatical warrior offering his victims the choice of the Koran or the sword is not only untrue, it is impossible.”[17]
5. “Generally speaking, Muslim tolerance of unbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom, until the rise of secularism in the 17th century.”
@ Guggi:
Nice to see that someone else has Lewis’s book! Not sure if we disagree about much, but M. clearly considers Judaism and Islam more theologically compatible than Judaism and Christianity. That was my only point. The question of which is the politically dominant culture really has no bearing on this….
Bernard Lewis was ordered to pay one franc as damages to an association against racism and an association representing the Armenians by a French court in a civil proceeding for his statements on the Armenian Genocide in a November 1993 Le Monde article. — same wiki link.
Yea real credible researcher you have there
Moe Katz wrote:
The “dominant view in academia” is giving the Muslims a tongue-bath wherever it is possible to do so. I am personally acquainted with someone who, having gained a degree in Islamic studies under Bernard Lewis, was told by him to not, under any circumstances, to go into the field because he would not be able to get a position, merely because he was a Jew—Lewis himself being quite well aware that he would not have had his own career were he to attempt it today.
So, your mere offering of citations means little; if you want to be convincing, you have to quote such things and then make an argument as to why they are accurate or relevant. Those of us who have actually hacked our way through to a degree from a respectable university are not particularly impressed by people who merely yammer about “dominant views in academia.”
@ lobo91:
When ever I buy anything on line or to that nature, I always use my paypal card! If you don’t keep much in it, they can’t charge you. You can also find a place in the paypal transactions to cancel the subscription. If that does’t work, call paypal and have them send a new card. I’ve had to do this a couple of times… but usually the canceling of the subscription is effective.
BTW, given that suicide terrorism is an Islamic invention of the Crusades era—the Hashishiyun under the Old Man of the Mountain, from whom our word “assassin” is derived—babbling about the Islam of 1000 years ago being substantially different from the Islam of today is utter bullshit.
@ waldensianspirit:
Lewis is a HUGE expert on Turkey. This discredits French law more than it does Lewis.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
“I am personally acquainted with someone who, having gained a degree in Islamic studies under Bernard Lewis, was told by him to not, under any circumstances, to go into the field because he would not be able to get a position, merely because he was a Jew—Lewis himself being quite well aware that he would not have had his own career were he to attempt it today.”
Sounds like good advice to me. The field has been lost to the apologists of Islam, the Edward Saids and John Espositos and that lot.
Look, if you have a problem with Maimonides being in a sense an Arab thinker of his time, that’s your loss.
Moe Katz wrote:
No, I have a problem with you asserting this without any backup other than “it’s the dominant (unquoted) view.”
@ Moe Katz:
You are claiming the Armenian genocide didn’t happen, wasn’t state sponsored and the Turks are right in denying it happened?
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Start with the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy piece I linked and go into his citations. Or Google “Maimonides” and “Islam” and see what you come up with. No one respectable is arguing Maimonides stands apart from the Arab thought of his time.
And let’s not bother comparing our collections of university degrees, okay? Surely we’re both above making appeals to that kind of authority.
Iron Fist wrote:
Fer shure.
Moe Katz wrote:
What is the dominant view in academia?
I have yet to hear a clear proposition.
In any case, as a medievalist, I find your confidence in sweeping pronouncements about the period silly. Let’s just say that it is a long period of….”unacceptable complexity.”
@ waldensianspirit:
I don’t know enough about the accusations to have any opinion on this one. The French have all sorts of laws about what you can and cannot say. Brigitte Bardot is always paying fines for verbal indiscretions.
@ Moe Katz:
I was no longer referring to Lewis and the French.
You are claiming the Armenian genocide didn’t happen, wasn’t state sponsored and the Turks are right in denying it happened?
@ wolfie:
The dominant view is that Maimonides is rooted in and draws importantly on the intellectual world of Muslim Spain in which he lived. That’s all that I have claimed.
@ waldensianspirit:
I don’t think the events themselves are in dispute, but there remain questions about intentions and the semantic issue of what is meant by a genocide. I don’t really take any sort of stand on this one.
@ Moe Katz:
Your “HUGE” expert took a stand. Why can’t you?
@ waldensianspirit:
Not my area of expertise. There doesn’t seem to be universal agreement on this issue with respect to planning, intentions.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
This argument has a familiar smell to it. It’s the same as on the climate blogs as when someone yammers about the “consensus of experts”.
Been there, done that. Different issue, same tactics.
@ Moe Katz:
To know another culture doesn’t say one is “embedded”. Maimonides knew as well the surrounding culture of Muslims as Christians. Was he therefore “embedded” in the Christian culture and science?
The philosophical works of the Greeks was brought to and translated by Christians and Jews to the Muslims. Before Maimonides and ibn Rushd aristotelean philosophy was interpreted in the view Neo-Platonism. But at the time when M. wrote his own philosophical work he had left Spain. Although he knew the writings of other philosophers of his time – Christians as well as Muslims (e.g. Alexander of Aphrodisias, Themistius and Averroes)- he was an original Jewish philosopher.
@ Moe Katz:
And they don’t have the smoking gun memo written by Hitler, either. So we give him the benefit of the doubt?
This was posted elsewhere today. And since this is an open/football thread, you gotta see this. It is simply the wildest finish ever to any football game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHkABO0VwCg
@ Guggi:
He is an original Jewish thinker, and he also draws deeply on the Muslim thought of his time, notably Al-Farabi. Mozart is an original Viennese composer, yet his indebtedness to J.C. Bach and to Haydn is obvious.
@ snork:
Man, I just don’t know. Israel is leery about getting on the Armenian genocide bandwagon. I just think the jury is really out on this one.
Moe Katz wrote:
I have a problem with the “rooted in” phrase. I think the correct view is that he was firmly rooted in Judaism and Judaic culture. This also happens to be the dominant view, even today.
I don’t think anyone would dispute that he “draws importantly on the intellectual world of Muslim Spain.” But then, I could get mischievous and stipulate that the truly important intellectual influences on him were by no means Muslim, but Greek.
There are always controversies about influences on great thinkers. I concede that I am not an authority on Maimonides. All I can say is that I find the evidence for Islamic influence on his philosophy pitifully slim.
@ wolfie:
An example would be his letter to his Hebrew translator where he mentions the importance of Al-Farabi. I’m trying to find that at this moment.
@ wolfie:
Here’s something on the Al-Farabi connection:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=A&artid=1190
Alfarabi claims that prophecy emanates from a soul of purified reasoning powers; the soul associates itself with the active reason and receives from it aid and instruction. From this naturalistic explanation of prophecy Judah ha-Levi totally dissents, holding the opinion that prophecy is in reality God speaking (i. 87). Nevertheless, Alfarabi’s conception of prophecy was shared by Abraham ibn Daud, who speaks of three gradations of reason: reason “in potentia,” “in actu,” and the “intellectus acquisitus.” Maimonides also adopted Alfarabi’s views concerning prophecy, while at the same time insisting on the selection by the divine will, and on the prophet’s inner preparation by a higher moral standard and imaginative faculty (Moreh, ii. 36) and follows him in his classification of the soul-powers in his “Eight Chapters.” From him, too, in all probability, Maimonides borrowed a passage concerning the seven divisions of medical science, which are to be found in Alfarabi’s distribution of the sciences. Finally, in his “Moreh,” ii. 27, Maimonides has made use of Alfarabi’s commentary upon Aristotle’s “Physics.” Other writers likewise reflect Alfarabi’s influence upon Jewish literature; Abraham b. Ḥiyyah Albargeloni, Joseph ibn Aknin, Shem-Ṭob Palquera, and Moses di Rieti knew and availed themselves of Alfarabi’s writings.
@ Moe Katz:
Can you find any idea in Al-Farabi’s philosophy that was not taken directly from Aristotle or the Neo-Platonists?
I’m not disputing that Al-Farabi influenced Maimonides! My point is that the influence was not Muslim, but Greek.
@ wolfie:
I’m obviously not competent to answer the question to what extent Farabi goes beyond his own sources. I’m not sure that matters. He is credited by Maimonides and his contemporaries as an important thinker, and he is part of the Muslim intellectual world of Almohad Spain. There are Islamic strains in the thought of these Greek-influenced thinkers that can be discerned, but that’s not important for our purposes.
@ Moe Katz:
Mozart was from Salzburg.
I hope you referred to Johann Christian Bach and not Johann Sebastian Bach.
To study the work of others does not say you are embedded!
I was engaged intensely with the work of Al-e Ahamad and Ali Shariati but I would never say I was ‘embedded’ or ‘have drawn deeply to their thought’.
@ wolfie:
Yeah, I think Farabi and his contemporaries gave neo-Platonism an Arab mystic twist, according to sources I’ve seen, but I’m no expert.
@ Guggi:
Mozart as an adult was professionally based in Vienna and is considered part of the First Vienna School of composers. The Bach I refer to was Johann Christian Bach, the “London Bach,” whose style anticipates the latter’s to an astonishing degree. Some of the piano concertos of J.C. Bach are uncannily proto-Mozartian, and M. acknowledges his influence in a letter to his father.
@ Moe Katz:
The Arab Muslims stole all their philosophy from those they conquered. They took over the Advanced Persian Empire and some of Eastern Rome’s richest provinces like Syria, Egypt and North Africa. Spain itself was the most advance state in Western Europe before the Islamic invasion.
Islam didn’t invent nothing, it leached off the pre existing knowledge of the Conquered Culture.
@ Rodan:
And they stole positional notation (and the number zero) from Indians. The “Arabic numerals” came from India. That’s huge. Without that, science and technology as we know it wouldn’t be possible. Think about it. How do you take the square root of MCXVII?
@ Moe Katz:
The “Eight Chapters” are mainly influenced by Farabi’s “Fusul al-Madani” but both are not specific “Jewish” or “Muslim” and though of no significance.
@ snork:
They got the Indian numbers from the conquered Persians.
@ Guggi:
It’s the intellectual culture of Arabic-speaking Almohad Spain. Lots of influences.
Moe Katz wrote:
Did not you yourself make a distinction between Islam and “Islamdom?”
There is a difference between saying that Maimonides was influenced by “Islamic thinking” and saying he was influenced by thinkers following the Greek tradition who happened to be Muslims….mostly nominal or heterodox, BTW.
My dental hygienist happens to be a Bosnian Muslim, but when I take her advice on teeth, I am not being influenced by “Muslim dentistry.”
Any Cowboy haters out tonight?
@ Rodan:
That’s not correct. Syrian Christians immigrated to the Muslim world and they took with them the writings of the Greek philosophers. They weren’t “stolen”. “Muslim” philosphers (I write “Muslim” in quotation marks because if one reads their work carefully one would must come to the conclusion they had been agnostics) – almost all of them non Arabs – did a great work to save the Greek philosophy and to define philosophical terms. Sad to say but this ended (more or less) with Averroes.
They developed science further (algebra, geometry, physics etc.)
@ wolfie:
There was a culture there in Almohad Spain that drew on Greek, Arab and multiple other sources. Everything I’ve seen on their scholarship and their science suggests that they innovated, that they synthesized, that they were anything but passive custodians of the classical literature. There was an intellectual and scientific flowering going on in this milieu, and Maimonides was part of that. Can we agree on that summary?
@ Moe Katz:
Nonsense. The Almohad Dynasty was the enemy of every science and philosphy. They burned books and banned philosphy.
I’m going outside to rake leaves in the dark while listening to Willie Nelson’s CD, Moonlight Becomes You.
@ Guggi:
Yes. All the more remarkable the intellectual flowering that took place in spite of them.
@ Moe Katz:
Partially. (And let’s leave it at that!)
@ Guggi:
What is significant from our point of view as moderns is that the Arab Aristotelian philosophers were suppressed by Islam, whereas the great Jewish and Christian Aristotelians were embraced as orthodox in their own religions.
This is not a coincidence, nor does it have anything to do with “tolerance.”
@ Guggi:
Syrian Christians were conquered by Islamic Imperialists in the 7th Century. The Muslims got the Greek learning from provinces that were once under Byzantine control. The Byzantines were Greek. The Syrians Christians had their lands conquered by the Muslims, so that proves my point.
Nice Leftist Pro-Muslim spin.
Algebra is Babylonian in origins, not Arabic Muslim.
Geometry is Greek.
Physics is also of Greek Origins.
Nice try, try again.
My Ancestors finally crushed the Almohad occupiers at Navas de Tolosa!
Sometimes I am asked about why Australia banned most firearms. Here is a fairly solid piece on why. Note also the wide diversity of views in the comments.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/americas-gun-outrage-276-people-killed-or-wounded-a-day-20091109-i4gj.html?
@ Moe Katz:
Before you went with your “HUGE” expert. Now it isn’t your expertise.
The point is, your “HUGE” expert has gained the bad university habit of worshipping his own intellect, enjoys being fawned over by insipid women at cocktail hours and after he sips the islamic cool-aid noted in #282 he no longer is an authority but a academic mercenary and an advocate for genocidal murderers like Maj. Hasan.