The radical totalitarian Progressive Movement and it’s propaganda organs in the media and blogs claim that the Tea Party resistance is violent. They claim that this movement is inciting violence and anarchy. Totalitarian Progressive blogs like Little Green Footballs, Daily Kos and Think Progress were spreading conspiracy theories that the death of a Kentucky Census-worker was due to murder. They tried to blame Tea Party members, but it turned out to be a suicide! Even without evidence they continue spreading this myth. Well it turns out the ones who commit violence are Progressive Protesters!
COPENHAGEN (AP) – Danish police fired pepper spray and beat protesters with batons outside the U.N. climate conference on Wednesday, as disputes inside left major issues unresolved just two days before world leaders hope to sign a historic agreement to fight global warming.With the talks clearly deadlocked, Connie Hedegaard, former Danish climate minister, resigned from the conference presidency to allow her boss, Danish Prime Minister Lars Loekke Rasmussen to preside as world leaders from 115 nations streamed into Copenhagen. She was to continue overseeing the closed-door negotiations.
Hundreds of protesters were trying to disrupt the 193-nation conference, the latest action in days of demonstrations to demand “climate justice” – firm action to combat global warming. Police said 230 protesters were detained.
Read the rest.
Yeah, those violent Rightwing protesters are causing trouble in Copenhagen! As always the Left is covering up the fact that it is their side that uses violence. Throughout history starting with the Jacobins in the French Revolution through the Nazis and Communists in the 20th Century, Progressive movements believe in any means necessary. The few times the Right used violence like in the American Revolution or Pinochet’s 1973 Coup in Chile, it is to resist Leftist aggression.
The truth doesn’t matter to the Left. They will keep spinning about violent Rightwingers. The reality is the Left invented the concept of political violence and these protests in Copenhagen are just another example. Progressives are power hungry and bullies. We must never back down to them and always confront their lies. Their whole ideology is based on lies. We have the truth on our side!
Tags: Copenhagen Summit
Herding asses.
To know to do good and to do it not to HIM it is sin. Tea parties do good, the others NO.
Like the new look.Changed the settings and luckily found the password and it worked.Lots of bad things going on but all the blogs seem to be on top of it. Good thing too.I’ll have to visit more often. Beltfed great comment.
CJ knows that these protesters are just Teaparty grannies disguised as young leftists.
@ RIX:
Actually, I was wondering what Queeg will say about their arrests. Crusaders for Science™ are different from Tea Partiers. Cuz they’re all progressive and right-on and sciency and all that shiite.
snork wrote:
You know that it would have to be something like that. In the alternative he could claim that it is just a smear by the same nefarious forces that are mean to him.
This kind of violence is common at lefty protests. In fact, it is exceptional for them not to have at least one person detained by the cops.
(They like to play martyr. Besides, they don’t have to worry about maybe spending a night in jail because Mommy will bail them out. I mean, it’s not like they have real jobs or anything.)
Violence at a Tea Party protest? Exceedingly rare and, if I am not mistaken, instigated by violent counter-protesters.
Typical of the lefties to PROJECT all they are on the right. It really is kind of funny and predictable. They always accuse the right of this or that terrible thing, when in reality it is them, the progs that are doing the very disgusting things they accuse the right of doing. I wonder how long this will last until it really does get violent?
And still, the media covers. Look who is the active noun in this sentence.
The police beat up protesters. Just out of the blue, for no reason.
But wait! There is a reason. The protesters were “disrupting” things. Right. If I hiccupped a lot in class, THAT’S a disruption. If I stood up and threw a chair at the teacher, the school might have used a different word.
Sort of related:
Torture in Copenghangen!!!
@ wolfie:
Violence at a Tea Party protest? Exceedingly rare and, if I am not mistaken, instigated by violent counter-protesters.
Yup, instigated by the SEIU & Move On people.
A noticeable difference between the riot police here and the Copenhagen cops is that the cops there make good use of their riot batons, lol
@ snork:
@ RIX:
He’ll ignore it. If someone dares to bring it up, he’ll dismiss reality as being another right-wing propaganda point.
He may express sympathy for the protesters’ frustration. After all, CJ, too, is oppressed by people who are too stubborn, evil, or stupid to believe what he says unconditionally. You have no idea how these warmers suffer!… And it’s all for the children. *sniff*
Oh, Al…
Gore tells another tall one. Nobody listens.
@ wolfie:
But the specific question is, why are they not an unruly mob like the Tea Partiers. That will be determined solely on the basis of message, not conduct.
@ snork:
@ snork:
That site has been invaluable during Climategate.
As for the protesters getting whomped on by the cops, I think that’s what the vast majority of the troublemakers were hoping for. To some douchebags it provides a certain cache to be oppressed by the man.
Making them sit on their scrawny vegan asses in the cold for a few hours was genius.
Oh, fer crying out loud, Ricky:
Small Pacific island challenges Czech plans to extend power station
So now, every banana republic in the world is going to have their hands out every time anybody in the world wants to build or expand a coal fired furnace.
Go bother the Chinese. They’re building like one a week. They tell you to stick it where the moon don’t shine? You don’t say. That’s not very nice.
@ snork:
Absolutely.
The narrative that forces change is all that matters.
Reality is optional.
Lincolntf wrote:
Anthony Watts started his site as an organizing vehicle for his volunteer surface station audit project. It was never intended to become what it did, but such is the internet. It’s a very blogmocratic™ operation, with a lot of volunteer help and a lot of guest posts. And no, it’s not funded by ExxonMobil or the coal industry. Sorry Queeg, it just ain’t.
In England the pro-terrorist demonstrators hung around after their time was up just to disrupt the pro-Israeli ones later on.
Whenever someone speaks out about totalitarian terrorist Islamists, they will stand up in unison, shouting, or pretend to argue with the person next to them, or go to the back and continually slam doors. That’s if the person even gets to speak to begin with. The first thing they do is try get their speaking engagement canceled.
The left is about censorship, not free speech. It’s time for colleges to start getting the names of these students so that they have to face the consequences for their actions, like in the real world.
OT:
Bias From The Guardian Editor that actually shocks my conscious! Insofar that was already completely convinced that The Guardian in Britain was horribly biased, that is saying something.
It is truly amazing, that The Guardian editor Michael White would say this – especially since the conversation wasn’t even about Israel at all but instead the attack on Italian President Silvio Berluscone. I guess this really just evidences the pervasive, and deep rooted Israel obsessive HATRED in this man – and his newspaper, etc., by extension.
From: Carl In Jerusalem
The video of the interview can be found at CiJ, linked above.
When your irrational Israel hatred is so deep rooted that you have to make such despicable slanderous lies in a completely unrelated conversation – I don’t think you should be working for a news outlet. As Carl states however, The Guardian will probably be giving him a raise in pay.
You can also read about it here at HonestReporting
@ wolfie:
Now, now, wolfie. Put yourself in his place for a moment. He has this wonderful epiphany about AGW, throws whatever common sense he ever had out the window. Kicks friends in the ass repeatedly and embraces far left wackos as his new posse. And then?
The shit hits the fan and the AGW fraud starts being exposed. ROTFLMAO! His timing sucks! He so completely burned his bridges that he can do nothing BUT defend the indefensible.
Again – ROTFLMAO!
Lincolntf wrote:
Has anyone seen Sheriff Joe lately?
@ snork:
Sheriff Joe was due to speak somewhere but it got canceled because the censorship dictators didn’t want people to hear what he had to say.
If you are a rightwinger, you are violent. Period. That is their premise. Don’t argue, just accept it.
@ mjazz:
If you have ever been in the middle of one of these melees (I have), you will notice that once the Left gets violent and abusive, the Government (police) will intervene – not to stop the violent troublemakers, but instead to ask the victims to leave, and disperse.
It is truly depressing and unfortunate, but it is the well mannered, and respectful that are asked to leave, and always forced to forfeit their freedom of speech. Had I not been seeing this for many years, I would never be even beginning to come to this conclusion, but it seems that being the “good guy” doesn’t work.
The actions, and responses of the police, security, etc., and the World “leaders” on the International stage has only taught me one horribly upsetting and unfortunate lesson: Terrorism works – and it isn’t paying to be the “good guy”.
We constantly acknowledge that this brand of Westerner is no longer up for a fight, and will bend over at first chance to threat of violence, and aggression and yet we still naively cling to the assumption that we will get what we want by being passive, and “good”. Unfortunately (and I stress that word!) this just isn’t logical or results driven. I take no pleasure in saying this, but this is just my observation.
Terrorism WORKS!
mjazz wrote:
They know their names.
Barring violence, which might warrant a sternly worded letter of admonition, there are no consequences.
Academia is not the real world.
(The only way they would ever face consequences is if they actually hurt some one. Then the criminal or tort law could kick in.)
Violence, terrorism and intimidation are tactics used almost exclusively by the left. Where are the actual instances of right wing terrorism in this country? (McVeigh was not a right winger, just a nut).
The fact is, conservatives believe in hard work, responsibility and freedom, and so that type of activity is against our morals.
@ snork:
You will hear crickets!
@ Russkilitlover:
not anywhere close tolittle thing! He’s a martyr, I tell you!@ WrathofG-d:
Me and a few of my freinds confronted some Leftist protesters in NY back in 2004. I will not go into details, but we sent them running. I think the Right should confront them and if need be get physical. They can’t fight, trust me.
I will not get into more details of the actions of me and my friends.
WrathofG-d wrote:
Ghandi was up against the British. MLK and other civil rights protesters against the US. Appeals to their morality worked.
That ain’t so when we’re up against pure leftists or Islamists or the like. They don’t feel bad for hitting you when you aren’t hitting back.
@ tunnelrat:
McVeigh was a WHite National Socialist, hence he’s a Leftist. Plus it’s no coincidence that John Doe Number2 looks like Jose Padilla. Terry Nichols was also in contact with Filipino Muslim AL-Qaeda agents. No one ever looked into the Middle East connection of OKC bombing.
McVeigh also praised Bin Laden!
tunnelrat wrote:
A good question to ask is where is the ORGANIZED terrorism in this country. Like you said McVeigh was a lone nut with a few accomplices. What about ELF, or any other big name extremist organization?
@ PaladinPhil:
See my #34. There is more to OKC bombing than what is being discussed.
@ necromancer:
We have Paladin Phil and now a Necromancer……. All we need is a mage and a thief and we have a D&D team! lol.
Welcome.
@ tunnelrat:
Conservatives don’t have time to do terrorism… we’re too busy working to pay taxes so the violent protestors and terrorists can get their welfare checks.
However, the left CONSIDERS most conservatives to be terroristic, by virtue of being conservative.
Unless they’re a conservative that believes in liberal things like gun control or universal healthcare. Then they’re ok. .. because they’re ‘Conservative’ like Bill Clinton and Obama are ‘Christian’
@ Rodan:
Thank you. Still makes my point. You will find hundreds of terrorist “organizations” that have everything to put behind them. Where is all the same behind the conservative groups? Or the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy? Can anyone on the left name a single right terrorist group?
/I will be around all week, should take them that long to come up with at least one.
WrathofG-d wrote:
It only works because the powers-that-be let it work. They let it work because they condone or support the cause.
Terrorism in a cause of which they disapprove will not work.
The MSM and people like CJ, who try to depict the Tea Party protesters as violent, who portray pro-lifers as dangerous would-be terrorists, do not do that to enhance their image.
Suppose you had control of the media. (Wrath of G-d, Media Czar of the Universe!) Would terrorism work then?
@ LanceKates:
Thiefs are now rogues. They kinda got upset being typecast and all.
By their very definition, leftism is about ruling the individual. Government is just a synonym for force. Thus, the very essence of their beliefs is to make others act as they want them to.
This is why their cars are covered in bumper stickers, written as commands. “Coexist! Save the Whales! Stop Global Warming! Are you reading this back there? I’m telling you what actions and thoughts you need to have.”
And this is why they can so quickly go to violence. Forcing others to ‘behave’ is the core of leftism. They feel justified of course, because the planet is in danger, we can’t allow others to hate, people need food and shelter, and so on.
@ Rodan:
The late Zola Levitt, a Messianic believer, used to say there was an islamic connection to the Oklahoma bombings that had never been pursued.
@ PaladinPhil:
Yup the only oraganized Terror in the US is Progressive or Islamic.
@ Silhouette:
I was speaking to a friend of mine about this. He thought that the Jews should have used Ghandi’s method of peaceful protest against Hitler. I told him to read a history book. The British were bound by their own morality and rules. Hitler was too except his were more “fluid” and exterminating the Jews was part of his plan. Plus, they were peaceful for the most part as they were rounded up and sent to the camps. Peaceful resistance only works if the people you are against hold to a high moral code.
@ LanceKates:
Nerd!!! Oh, BTW…thank you for hooking me on Sons of Anarchy. Now I can’t wait to see what happened to the baby!!!! Damn you!!
Original Post:
And LGF membership (including Johnson) used to routinely ridicule conspiracy theories (e.g., Bush was behind 9-11, Jewish people were trying to take over the world, etc), but now he (and the rest of LGF) support them when it supports their world views and beliefs.
(For a time, when he was obsessing over evolution, Johnson was also insisting there was a conspiracy theory where Intelligent Design and/or conservative Christian groups were supposedly trying to take over America.)
The message I get from the people at LGF: it’s acceptable to hold a conspiracy theory only if it’s expedient or convenient for “your” side.
@ Silhouette:
Well said.
@ PaladinPhil:
I think the John Birchers are considered right-wing. I wouldn’t know where you’d place the Klan.
@ PaladinPhil:
That doesn’t mean I’m on the left.
@ CloudyDay:
I loathe conspiracy theorists with a passion. Keep running across them and try to be civil when they start spewing their crap. Ran across a free mason one this weekend.
@ mjazz:
I don’t know much about Birchers, the Klan though I place firmly on the left.
Rodan wrote:
Rodan, I don’t mean to be rude but when it comes to Tim McVeigh you really don’t know what your talking about. There was no middle east connections, no Philipino connections, no unidentified conspirators. It was simply one pissed off ex grunt. READ his book, “American Terrorist” he goes into details about his political phylosophy (he wass no Leftist, pretty right wing actually), why he did it, how he did it etc. It was amazingly simple to do for a ex grunt with combat training and experience. Why do you think Uncle Sam put him down so quick? he scared the living crap out of the left and the US Govt. There are MILLIONS of disgruntled pissed off veterans who think very much like McVeigh did, only none were/ are pissed off enough to act out. Read the book, then come back and discuss.
Geogrunt
@ MikeA:
What a dope.
@ PaladinPhil:
Yeah especially the nonsense Chucky is spewing about The Catholic Church, The Family, Ron Paul, RS McCain, John Dobson, The Vlaams Belang, Kahanists, Glenn Beck and Tobacco Comapanies behind some Global Plot to take over the world.
@ PaladinPhil:
I’m pretty much with you there, though I try not to hate the people who believe in them, but I do hate the beliefs with a passion. I don’t see how a rational, intelligent human being could believe in such views.
I had an acquaintance at another forum who totally bought into the “Bush was behind 9-11, or at least knew of 9-11 in advance” theories.
She was hacked off that I would not debate the 9-11 theories with her. To me, it’s so ridiculous that I cannot be bothered.
There is also a lot of anal-retentive aspects to debating those theories, so it bores me to tears (e.g., arguing about nit picky details about physics, how fast/long it takes for metal to burn, and a bunch of other stuff I don’t care to read up on or study. No thank you!)
@ CloudyDay:
But if you are in the academic community and write something questioning the status quo, Darwinism, your career and reputation are at stake.
@ mjazz:
Ah yes. The old lambs to the slaughter trick. It might have worked.
Brilliant//////
@ mjazz:
Exactly. And it would have been on his tombstone, if he had one at all. When someone is trying to exterminate you, there is not “voluntary” suffering. You either fight or die.
OT: Daily Headlines:
D.C. Poised to Free Up Tax Money for Abortions
Pro-choice! Unless it is taxpayers who don’t choose to fund abortions. Screw them.
Congress Travels More, and the Public Pays
Carbon footprints make Baby Gaia cry.
Wireless Co. Mixes Liberal Politics With Business
Because hippies have so much disposable cash
N.C. Woman Lies Dead for 8 Months Despite Visits
“She was on the beach, water-skiing, we had no idea she was dead!”
Despite Sex Scandal, Tiger Voted Athlete of Decade
Second place: Obama
Schumer Reportedly Lashes Out at Flight Attendant
Kudos to reporter for mentioning his party by the fourth paragraph. BTW, he called her bitch for daring to tell him to turn off his phone. Rules are for others!
@ Geogrunt:
Terry Nichols had contacts with Abu Sayef in the Phillipines. Also explain why John Doe #2 looks like Jose Padilla.
I know what I’m talking about. If you don’t think that there was something shady about the whole thing, well that’s on you.
Also why did McVeigh before his death parise Bin Laden?
Read into the whole thing and yopu’ll realize there’s more than meets the eye.
We will never know the whole truth.
@ PaladinPhil:
I thought the Illuminati controlled everything./
I always thought Ghandi was an idiot. Peaceful protests my ass. Tell it to the Spartans at Thermopolye.
@ Geogrunt:
National Socialists are Leftists. They are Race based Leftists.
This you don’t know what you are talking about.
Read up on National Socialism and their Marxist origins.
“The Peaceful Left”
(the roosting of Obama’s buddies – the Weather Underground)
the “armed wing” of the Progressive movement?
G20 2009
Anti-Israel – Norway
I could go on & on & on….(and I planned to, but I ran out of time)
@ Geogrunt:
Agree with you here.
@ Geogrunt:
Was he executed? Did he write the book after going to prison?
@ PaladinPhil:
The John Birch Society may have been taken over by some odious characters, but the original charter was reasonable: that Communism is a pernicious totalitarian force to be resisted. John Birch was an American murdered by the Chinese. There’s nothing inherently odious about that notion, any more than there’s something odious about opposing Nazism in the name of one of its victims.
Just like the Reform Party was a little wacky when Perot was in charge, and became odious when Buchanan took over, it’s possible that there are some odious members. But the organization itself was created around a very reasonable premise. That Communism is malignant. History has shown that to be completely correct.
@ snork:
Sounds like a great reason to build a few (hundred) nuke plants.
mjazz wrote:
They do, through the Free Masons…..
/////
hmmm…. let’s see
bandanna to protect from teargas 4.99
fancy running shoes 89.99
getting yo commie hippy eco-freak
ass whipped to the ground by a
pissed-off danish cop PRICELESS
Rodan wrote:
It’s all held together by the —-drumroll, please! — Wedge Document of the Discovery Institute!
why is china still considered a ‘developing’ nation?
@ Rodan:
Maybe he needs an Intervention.
@ snork:
The JBS are loons and a bunch of nuts.
rain of lead wrote:
fify
oh, by the way, I’m back
daughter has a hefty case of bronchitius (?)
@ myselfandi:
Because they are developing into taking over the whole world… They already hold the mortgage on America…
@ PaladinPhil:
Don’t forget the Tobacco companies are behind it all.
@ PaladinPhil:
Are the Free Masons connected to the Free Mumias?
Or is it one free Mumia with the purchase of a Mason of equal or greater value?
Rodan wrote:
Rodan,
Read HIS BOOK. None of what you are saying was ever mentioned in his book. How the fuck do you know who terry nichols saw in the PI? his wife is PI, he traveled there with her. There are no conspiracies here. Just pissed off grunts. Never underestimate the power of one pissedd off US Soldier. McVeigh never praised bin laden, read his book. he was dead before 911, Bush put him down with a quickness. he respected the other terrorists he was kept with (Unabomber, some muslims etc) due to them acting on there convictions and not taking crap amymore.
@ wolfie:
If I ran the media, (Anti-Semites shiver!) I still believe Terrorism would work because I think it working is the result of fear, more than anything else. The West really doesn’t have much fight in them left (I’m afraid) and are lazy. Thus, when it comes down to dealing with violent, angry, motivated rioters, and the reasonable victims, it is much easier to just ask the victims to disperse and leave as they will do so with further violence, etc. This applies to the international stage as well.
Your point is well taken however. The media whitewash of the violence gives it credence, and encourages more. It is surely a component.
It dawned on me when writing on this Thread that one could make a strong argument that the violence, etc. -being a continuance of the agreed upon Progressive tactic after Vietnam Peace protests- is nothing less than the activation of the “militant wing” of the Progressive movement.
@ myselfandi:
*blink* *blink*
…………..
Bwahahahahahahaha
very good!
@ Geogrunt:
Actually I take back my 64. McVeigh was an Liebertarian Anarchists, not National Socialist.
My apologies. he was a Far Rightwing loon.
@ mjazz:
Of course the Klan would be considered ‘right wing’. They, like everyone who’s a conservative, hate black people. The only people we on the right DON’T hate are white, Evangelical Christians.
//
@ snork:
I read their literature and it didn’t come across as unreasonable, about 40 years ago.
mjazz wrote:
The book about McVeigh was written by two reporters from his hometown who wanted to know why he did it. he told them everything. Every little detail he told them checked out every single one, from girls he wanted to date but was too awkward, to stashes of survival kits stashed throughout the southwest. Everything he said in his book was found to be true. H
Rodan, he was NOT a National Socialist, where di you get that BS from?
@ MikeA:
They grabbed ahold of some island that was uninhabitated, which is against international law. And their tentacles are reaching into Africa.
Rodan wrote:
http://robomonkey.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/lgfbanned.gif
@ mjazz:
That’s what I’ve heard and read, and I think the “Expelled” movie had plenty of examples of such discrimination against folks who disagree with macroEvolution, but Johnson (and other Darwinists) keep insisting that it just isn’t so.
I’ve read that there are even atheistic and agnostic scientists who don’t believe in Darwinism (or “macro-Evolution,” or whatever term one wishes to use), so it’s not just theists / Christians who have problems with it.
————
A link that might be of interest to some readers:
Refuting Evolution: A handbook for students, parents, and teachers countering the latest arguments for evolution
@ PaladinPhil:
Illuminati, Free Masons, The Family, Dominionists, Creationists, Tea Parties, Sarah Palin.
@ Geogrunt:
I will read the book.
However he would not rat out others that were involved though.
He did praise Bin Laden before his death. Remeber AL-Qaeda was attacking us before 9/11 and the USS Cole just happened. So Bin Laden was known at the time. He probably just liked a fellow terrorists.
As for McVeigh being Rightwing, some validity there. I looked up his belief system and it’s very Paulian aka Libertarian-Anarchist.
Thanks for your input!
@ WrathofG-d:
I always like it when the press refers to Fatah’s “military wing”. It’s like saying the Nazis had a military wing.
@ Geogrunt:
Check my 84 and I can tell you are being very hostile about this.
Did you lose family or you have an agenda?
@ Overlook:
The Tobacco Companies and Gleen beck as well.
Rodan wrote:
I actually felt sorry for McVeigh. I am a disabled combat vet from Panama, and was going through HELL at the time with my VA education and disability benifits. Belive me I wanted to do to the VA similar things but am not that crazy, I have a family, Mcveigh had nobody. he had bad PTSD, had nobody to help him through his pain, no love in his life, no support. And he hated clinton, hated what happened at Ruby ridge and waco, he was at waco when the Govt stormed the building and murdered those women and children.
I would say if obama keeps his shit up, and if he is a bad as we here think he is, one day there will be a lot more Mcveigh types since the left won’t quit till they control everything and everyone. I wonder how long it will take before the two side activley start violence against one another.
Rodan, apology accepted.
@ wolfie:
Everytime I see “wedge document” mentioned, it reminds me of cheese, for some reason.
Using the strange, sloppy logic as used at LGF, that means dairy farmers and Holstein cows must be part of the conspiracy, too. I always thought those Holstein cows looked shifty and untrustworthy.
@ Geogrunt:
OK I get it and I aplogize for my 94. Obviously you did more research on this with me so I will conceed you this. I’m glad you are just speaking your mind and not having an agenda.
Thank you for your service and sorry about your disability.
@ Geogrunt:
Do you feel sorry for the Fort Hood murderer because of his emotional problems?
@ Rodan:
Rodan, sorry for coming across as hostile, I have been working on it for years. Its a sensitive subject for me for reasons I won’t go into but you might understand if you read his book. Lets just say civilian life has been very difficult for me.
@ Geogrunt:
I am truly sorry for the pain and injustice (or at least incompetent assistance) you’ve suffered through, but NO ONE is entitled to vigilante justice, and that is NOT what McVie even sought to accomplish. He KNEW there was a daycare center among other completely innocent office workers and customers in that building. He is nothing but a murderer.
@ Geogrunt:
Rodan, apology accepted.
I agree with you on this. The Left started the whole BS with calling Bush Hitler and demonizing the Right. Now that we have turned the tables they are crying like babies. The Right is at a breaking point and it’s teh Left that lead to this.
Eco-Loon.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1179/ecoloon.jpg
@ Geogrunt:
No problem look at my 98 and 102.
You have a pain that I can never understand or feel. Thanks for participating here and count us as friends!
It’ll still probably be blamed on us, anyway
Hey anyone that has time read this HA thread http://hotair.com/archives/2009/12/16/palin-to-arnold-hows-that-green-economy-working-for-california-pal/comment-page-2/#comment-3051960 LOL i swear its the frogger posing as”dakine”…this is the second time in a few days”dakine” came on HA ranting about an AGW subject…that CJ had just also recently posted.Then after i called him out im called a “fundamentalist drone”lol.Then i asked point blank “well are u CJ” and oops it dissapeared.Hmmm no biggie but pretty funny.Im convinced.
CloudyDay wrote:
I think of Wedge Antilles.
Good shooting, Wedge.
Overlook wrote:
No i don’t feel sorry for the fort hood shooter. To complex to get into.
Let me just say that I shared McVeighs book with a couple of combat infantry vets, and after reading it they hold similar feeling to mine.
I view the Govt as our main problem, not a solution, and should be kept to a minimum. Currently, and over the past 20 yrs or so, the uS Govt domesticaly has been out of control. Everything from waco to eminant domain and tax’s, they piss me off to no end.
@ Geogrunt:
Hypothetically, in an armed revolution against encroaching government, who and what would be targets for attack?
goddessoftheclassroom wrote:
I disagree about vigilante justice. I am a firm believe in vengence. Especially when our legal system has been so corrupted and justice is bought and paid for as it mostly is today. people need to pay for there mistakes when they as agregiuos as some the govt has committed. when the govt won’t or no longer looks out for the interests of the common man, that govt needs to be replaced. I study history, and especially military history since its those who win wars who create the history for the most part. The losers side rarely gets discussed. Also Mcveigh did not know about the childrens center its in his book. he said its his one regret, then added what was a daycare center doing in a govt building in the first place?
Overlook wrote:
What emotional problems? Hasan has no PTSD.
But don’t let a lie repeated often enough become the truth.
Hasan said clearly he thought non-Muslims should be killed. In a calm cool presentation at work.
Overlook wrote:
I would never answer this question in a public domain. I have probably said too much already.
CloudyDay wrote:
I agree. I had a few friends who were JFK assassination conspiracy theorists. They had to talk every little detail to death. They got annoyed when I pointed out that at the end of the day, he was still dead.
@ Silhouette:
No PTSD, but the claim is he was emotionally conflicted thanks to the opposite obligations to Islam and the US army.
I never countenance any form of “poor me” excuse, mitigation or justification for murder.
Overlook wrote:
I’d be afraid of an overthrow of the government because there’s no guarantees the new bosses would be any better. Seeing the current slide in morality and integrity in today’s times, it would most likely be worse.
@ Geogrunt:
I lived in OKC during this time and we were told that he pick the Murrow Blgd specifically because it did have the daycare center and he wanted the children killed as payback to the children being killed in Wacco.
Post of the day….
586 ExCamelJockey Wed, Dec 16, 2009 10:39:38am replyquote
* -1
* down
* up
* report
“If I can save 40-50% on my health insurance costs, that’s a big incentive — because as a self-employed lizardoid, I pay a freaking fortune for my insurance and hardly ever use it. If you think Silver is full of crap, tell me why.” (CJ quote from article post)
All 3 plans have basically the same cost. You can save 40-50% of your health insurance costs only if some harder working tax payer sugar-daddies the difference to you.
I appreciate that we have a place to discuss things without flame wars.
@ mjazz:
I’ll take the first 400 names out of the local phone book over the nitwits we’ve got up in DC right now.
S the Elder wrote:
ExCamelJockey,
Look out behind you! It’s the banning stick! How dare you speak the truth!
vapig wrote:
Thats not what he said in his book. he said he picked it because it was an easy target and housed the ATF guys who committed the waco atrocity
@ mfhorn:
I hope they’re not Allahakbars. .)
Here is ahsort story by a good friend of mine who served with Mcveigh in Gulf war 1.
On killing: It was easy, like playing a video game, just pointed his SAW and mowed down the iraqi’s as they tried to retake his trench position. he felt nothing. he shot them as they tried to escape their burial by dozer tanks, he would shoot at the hands and arms clawing there way out of the sand till no more appeard.
We are good buddies and vacation together.he does get a PTSD disability award for his service, but wonders why? he feels normal, only his normal and everyone elses normal are two totally different things.
CloudyDay wrote:
GET OFF MY BLOG! You know damned well they are half-white and half-black! That’s obviously a raaaaaaaaaaacist attack on the president!
Disgusting!
Credit Suisse to pay $536M fine for violating Iran sanctions
Hey, what are the odds we see any of that money? The politicians are all going wee wee wee! They could pay off the interest on the national debt for a millisecond, maybe.
@ mjazz:
This is a very interesting question. It goes back to Ben Franklin and his suggestion that a Republic would be hard to keep. It goes to the fact that a democracy contains the seeds of its own overthrow. The people can vote themselves out of power and establish a king (in all but name).
Armed revolution by the army which establishes a junta – which may be more or less inclined to hand over power to civilian government – has occurred frequently. Its the Latin American way. But, as you say, the cure is often worse than the disease.
There is no constitutional grounds for armed revolution. The first thing the revolutionaries – let’s say, a junta – would have to do is suspend the constitution. To suspend the constitution in the name of restoring it, would be theoretically and practically impossible. There would be no mechanism for conferring legitimacy. Edicts backed up by machine guns are hardly a desirable form of government.
France set to compromise over burka ban by only outlawing them in public buildings
@ shadowman:
I didn’t realize CJ actually went to Copenhagen. Golly!
@ Overlook:
That’s a good question considering how many civilain non-political, non-policy making people (myself included) work here!
@ Geogrunt:
That’s not true – the order might have come from that bldg, but certainly the people who worked there had nothing to do with the operation.
@ wolfie:
Funny, CJ’s former partner, Roger Simon is reporting from Copenhagen.
S the Elder wrote:
Ouch!
@ vapig:
I completely agree with you on this. I feel Geogrunt is getting a little off the reservation on this. Is he saying that if the day care center was NOT there, then it was OK to blow up the building? Sounds that way to me. Please correct me if I am wrong.
@ Geogrunt:
Lot’s of vets suffer from PTSD but don’t go on to blow up a building with innocent people inside it. I remember how careful me and my little brother had to be when waking my father (Korean vet) because he would start swinging as soon as you touched him before he fully woke up. That lasted for years!
vapig wrote:
Vapig,
WTF? what are you talking about? I was quoting what McVeigh said in his book were the reasons why he targets the building he targeted. Mcveigh belived the agents who did waco came from that building, thats all that matters, he BELEIVED they did it.
@ PaladinPhil:
What about the conservative groups that ‘are to be closely watched’ per Obama’s Homeland Security (Like Soldiers, people who defend the Constitution and gun owners?)
PaladinPhil wrote:
Shows how long it has been for me. heh.
wolfie wrote:
as opposed to some washed up musician…
NoThreat2U wrote:
Holy Crap! What a great show. Though my thought (which I actually did yell at the tv) was “Steal a boat, dumbass!”
Did you go back and watch Season 1, it makes stuff in Season 2 more understandable.
tanker on the horizon wrote:
And his reports are top notch, too! Pajamas Media has been doing a great job on the AGW hoax.
But as you must know, they are the equivalent of Stormfront. Thus spake Chucky!—- Does even Chuck take Chuck seriously anymore?
@ Overlook:
Which is why John Adams said “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
The Carnation Revolution is a positive example, but definitely an anomaly.
MikeA wrote:
Wrong. I am simply stating Mcveighs position. My feeling an targets are not for public discussion.
McVeigh thought there were no innocents in War, he was at War with the US Govt. he viewed anyone doing business with Uncle sam was aprt of the problem, therefore a legit target. he talked about how many iraqi civilians were killed by US bombs in the first gulkd war, how uncle sam called them “Collateral Damage”. McVeigh viewed all the civilains in the building as collateral damage. read his book. he hid nothing.
Me? I got a family to worry about, a mortgage to pay, dogs to care for. I am not at war with anybody. But I did understand McVeighs logic, it was very military.
@ CloudyDay:
You’d love Jesse Ventura’s new show then. It’s called Conspiracy Theory.
The first one was a Troofer episode (The government was behind 9/11, etc)
Tonight’s is on a one world government taking over through AGW policies.
Sometimes I wonder if the conspiracy theory nuts don’t have their own agenda to act so stupidly as to discredit any ACTUAL truths found.
@ Geogrunt:
Whatever…..everyone knows Janet Reno gave the order and while I think both Ruby Ridge and Waco where dumbass moves by the Fed, for someone not even related to the event to take it into his own hands to murder a bunch of innocent people – even going so far to specifically pick a building that had children in it – is a rabid dog that deservedly got his ticket punched.
@ Geogrunt:
I understand what you are saying now that I re-read it. My only concern is if you can’t discuss the “targets” in public, then that concerns me that the targets might not be morally correct.
@ S the Elder:
Who wants you to pay for his healthcare!
vapig wrote:
I agree, so did he.
@ tanker on the horizon:
Why just buildings? Presumably the streets are public too? The compromise is short on rationality, long on appeasement.
There is no Koranic requirement for a burqa or a niqab. Some argue the only requirement is to cover the breasts (“ornaments”).
Silhouette wrote:
I’m NOT the only one! I’ve just been too embarrassed to admit it.
@ LanceKates:
This one might not be far fetched. The Tranzis have openly called for a One World Government and Obama subscribes to this belief.
MikeA wrote:
It depend on what side you on on during the War. Let me just say from my 10 yrs Infantry schooling and a little combat experience, there are an almost infinite number of easy targets depending on what effect you want the violence to have. Its all about terror in the end. scare the other side into doing what you want. Fear is a powerful weapon and great propoganda tool.
on vigilantism:
When those with authority refuse to act, those with power must, in the defense of Good and the protection of the innocent.
Those willing to protect innocent have much more power than they realize, even if there is only 1 who will act.
I don’t condone bombings, and I’m not talking about mass-killing of people we may consider philosophically evil.
I’m talking about defending ourselves, our loved ones, and the innocents we find from the predators that would mug/murder/rape them.
As the agents of Good in this world, it is our Duty.
@ Geogrunt:
What is the title of the book? I’d like to check it out.
@ 18 snork: That’s getting pretty close to enforcing a global one world government. and governing by hysteria. This is the problem of not requiring govt employees to have some private world experience before govt employment.
We need a UN NGO in charge of “leftist blathering credits” that we can trade in the market place.
Anyway as long as carbon credits can be traded and made to make Al Gore feel good. He won’t stop his polluting ways and those Pacific Islands are going to sink.
@ Overlook:
So then if you were a wanted criminal all you’d have to do is don a burka and walk like a lady and blend in.
@ vapig:
And I recall evidence that was presented at trial that confirmed that he had visited the Murrah building and most assuredly DID know that there was a daycare facility.
Folks, Geogrunt is explaining it from the perspective of what McVeigh described through his book. 3rd person.
@ Overlook:
I find the niqab unnerving. From my limited experience, they’re more prevalent in London than in Paris. At least in the city centers.
@ Carolina Girl:
That’s a cool looking avatar. Are there any larger pics available?
What’s up above what looks like a hill?
vapig @ 144
My sentiments exactly.
@ orangecrush:
Dubai makes islands so they’d be in business.
@ vapig:
McVeigh was also wrong about where the BATF agents involved in Waco came from.
That operation was run out of the Houston field office, not Oklahoma City.
@ 156 Carolina Girl: I was never really interested in McVeigh except for the fact that he was executed. My concern for him ends there. IMO I doubt he had much concern for any person, any age. He premeditated his killings. Any angst he had over killing babies I would think of as a form of jailhouse religion.
If he was doing his best thinking in jail that probably proves the point we should have found him and jailed him much earlier in his life.
but all in all McVeigh was much better off just putting a bullet in his own head. Same for the Ft Hood shooter. The Lakewood police killer. That is their best effort in life.
@ Carolina Girl:
Meh, I remember him saying that he knew it was there, but didn’t know it’d be open.
Regardless, he referred to the slaughtered children as ‘collateral damage’ and didn’t seem to have remorse for it, even having a statement that he didn’t much care because the parents weren’t the first to lose their sons or daughters.
@ mjazz:
Why thank you. The avatar is Cox and Forkum’s drawing of the eagle rising from the ruins of the World Trade Center. I believe you can find it at their website. (The image rising from the “hill” is the eagle.)
@ Formercorpsman:
I understand that, but it also seems as though he sypathizes and that, I don’t understand!
Anyway, sounds like McVeigh was a big fat liar trying to re-arrange facts to excuse or justify what he’d done.
http://www.foxnews.com/ Lol I keep trying to read this website and they have an autorefresh that redraws the page for me and bumps me back to the top before I have finished. No finer way to discourage people from visiting a web site.
If you’re that great of a vigilante, get Ahmadinejad, or sneak into Gaza and off some Hamas kingpin, or hit hezbollah or the muzlim brotherhood.
@ tanker on the horizon:
Burkas are the uniform of slavery. Unnerving, cruel, medieval.
Yes, he was a pathologic dirtbag. A trained pathologic dirtbag at that. There are a few interesting aspects to the whole story as well. IIRC, a reporter from Oklahoma was pursuing the angle of him not being a lone actor in the process.
I don’t remember who that is right now, but at the every least, it made for an interesting read.
The guy was disturbed.
@ Carolina Girl:
Thanks :)
Icarus is now claiming that because the John Birch Society has a booth at CPAC 2010, that they are cosponsers. menawhile for enough money, you can get a booth. He’s really reaching.
@ lobo91:
Makes sense – jurisdiction, and all.
@ vapig:
I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think it was intended to come out that way.
@ 164 LanceKates: McVeigh sounds like he was deluded to me. And a loser in life. Thus the separation from being a real human being. There is where just volunteering to help the homeless would have been more productive for him.
but as someone pointed out about the Feds going after Ruby Ridge and Waco in the violent uncaring trumped up exaggerated manner they did just stirs the crazy nest.
Rodan wrote:
“How to recognize white supremacists from a long way away.
The Birch.
The…Birch.”
@ orangecrush:
@ LanceKates:
Right after OKC happened, prisoners were lining up in Kansas, Oklahoma, etc., to give blood to help the victims. Granted, most of them did not have useable blood, but I found it interesting that here was our most “ruthless” citizens, wanting to do something to help.
I always thought a fitting punishment for McVeigh would have been to release his ass into the General Population at Leavenworth so they could let him know what they thought of a shithead who blew up 22 babies.
And McVeigh “didn’t think it would be open”? On a Tuesday? I consider this and any and all of McVeigh’s subsequent statements on the day care center to be self-serving attempts at rehabilitation of his image. For what purpose, I cannot fathom.
@ Rodan:
I’ll take your word for it, but it just shows how an organization can be taken over. I’m sure you completely agree with their original charter.
@ Rodan:
Rodan back in the day there was a family in the town I grew up in who were all Birchers.Everything was a commie plot to them and this was during the 60s so they had plenty of examples. Anyway a nerdy guy we knew lived next door to them and he built a small glowing red balloon device and set it up over their property. it just hung there like a big ole UFO.We sat drinking beer laughing like idiots as they came outside ranting and pointing at the commie plot in the sky.
@ Rodan:
The communist party of the usa has been a staple at liberal events for decades.
Both sides have nuts. He willfully refuses to provide the objectivity.
@ vapig:
We did a case study of BATF’s handling of Waco while I was working on my MPA.
It’s a highly dysfunctional agency.
Nothing has really changed since then, either. Most of those involved were actually promoted.
@ mjazz:
I stand corrected. This was a drawing by “Sherfus”(?) at the St. Louis Post Dispatch.
@ 172 Rodan: I think most of the posters left at 1.0 are just confused. Unable to see. Charles is anti-bigot, anti-fascist yet he exemplifies those behaviors himself. When pointed out to him, it’s “whatever dude, see yah”. It has to be uncomfortable knowing that one can’t really speak ones mind and discuss an issue fully.
@ orangecrush:
I get crummy results with Opera with them but ok with IE.
@ lobo91:
Waco was a clusterfuck or deadly and tragic proportions. I’ve heard the MSM’s take, which is that David Koresh was the ultimate evil, and I’ve heard those creeps tell Janet Reno during the hearings when they thought they were off camera and off mike that she either (a) did the right thing or (b) they would have gone even further.
I’ve also seen “Waco, the Rules of Engagement” which gives the side of the Branch Davidians. Frankly, I’m not sure what to believe.
@ lobo91:
Promotion is standard operating procedure to avoid people feeling bad about themselves.
It is a behaviorist fallacy, central to affirmative action.
@ Formercorpsman:
How ya doin Formercorpsman? How’s your business doing?
@ Overlook:
Like something out of creepy totalitarian dictatorship horror flick.
WTF? A mosque next to Ground Zero???
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/12/mysterious-group-buys-building-next-to-ground-zero-for-mosque/
@ 185 Carolina Girl: I was naive at the time of Waco. I swallowed the government concern line hook and sinker and didn’t question it. I had a couple of friends who were extremely concerned about the violation of basic human rights of individuals by the American government. I think history bears out their concerns and my history reflects what most Americans thought.
Rule of Thumb: A federal government institution acts institutional and seldom in the favor of an individual. They should be hands off whenever possible. The feds are like a bull in a china shop.
@ Carolina Girl:
Thanks, hadn’t done a search yet.
@ Carolina Girl:
That’s an understatement.
The people in charge of that operation were utterly clueless, as a result of the career path system the agency used (and still uses). BATFE, as it’s known today, is primarily a regulatory agency, not a law enforcement agency. Most people don’t realize that.
There are two different career paths for entry-level agents. Once they reach the supervisory level, they converge. As a result, there are people in charge of field offices who have never worked in the law enforcement side of the agency. That’s what happened in the Houston office.
@ vagabond trader:
Dancing on the grave.
Silhouette wrote:
Exactly. The only emotional problems Hasan had was the cognitive dissonance all fundamentalist* muslims have as they believe in the supremacy of Islam and see the failure it creates in the ummah world. I pity them a touch for that, but it doesn’t give me pause when meting justice upon the violent ones, not a second.
*I don’t use fundamentalist a perjorative exactly, just as an adjective that emphasizes Muslim. It is a negative for islam, in my book, but a positive elsewhere. Just depends on what the “fundamentals” are.
@ Carolina Girl:
The son of the late Zola Levitt, of Zola Levitt Ministries, said that his father, knowing scripture, offered the authorities help by trying to reason with Koresh.
Also, why did they have to make a big production out of it surrounding the place when supposedly they could have grabbed him walking the streets of Waco?
@ wolfie:
December 16, 2009 11:21 am
@ shadowman:
I didn’t realize CJ actually went to Copenhagen. Golly!
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3158/lgfecoloon.jpg
@ My5princesses:
Doing well thanks, busy as can be. How are you doing?
Gettin cold out there.
@ mjazz:
It’s part of the organizational culture at BATF.
“Dynamic entry” is their preferred operating style. It usually works well for them, but they also usually use it at 3 in the morning on a suburban house.
Doesn’t work so well on a huge compound in broad daylight, against people who are basically paranoid.
If they’d just walked up to the front door and knocked, the whole thing could have been avoided.
@ Formercorpsman:
Yea, quite a change from yesterday. Took the log for his hike/swim around noon, felt like about 20 outside.
I’m glad you’re busy considering what’s going on, I’m busy enough too. We’ll have to get together sometime. I have a Granddaughter now, almost a year old. She is quite the joy. We yell at each other and I’ll teach her the important things in life.
@ vagabond trader:
I bet the Ground Zero Imam’s minaret is going to be very, very tall.
And finished well before construction gets underway in any meaningful way at Ground Zero itself.
@ MikeA:
georgegrunt may be going bay an old rule.
It states that if you identify a target that you would consider valid under a given set of circumstances and someone else hits that target. No matter what the circumstances were or where you were at, you are a suspect.
Not to mention OPSEC rules are a great way to manage information that you put on public forums.
@ My5princesses:
Awesome. Congrats on the family addition.
I have been making an effort to slow down, and do things outside of work, yet it never seems to materialize.
Perhaps the bay when the weather gets warmer. I’ve always wanted to see the debauchery of Canal days.
@ vagabond trader:
They’d build one on there if they could.
One of the commenters mentioned the crescent shaped 9/11 memorial pointing to mecca, haven’t heard of that in a while.
I say someone write up a petition, not that I’m hopeful it would do any good.
@ Formercorpsman:
Make sure you have time to play with the kids and chase the wife. I’ll talk to you later, work beckons again.
@ mjazz:
In the documentary “Waco: Rules of Engagement,” several facts were promulgated that I didn’t know before viewing it. I’d like to throw them out there and ask if anyone can confirm them:
1. The Branch Davidians were tipped off about the raid, and the ATF was told they had been tipped off.
2. Koresh in fact had a federal permit to deal in firearms which made the number of firearms on his property irrelevant.
3. The original search document listed “evidence of child abuse” as one of the “items” they were to search for. Can someone please tell me where “child abuse” is a crime of federal jurisdiction?
@ vagabond trader:
muslims in Nazareth proposed building a mosque next to the Basilica of the Annunciation in 1997, that would have overshadowed it. Israel initially allowed it but withdrew permission after Christians objected. They are so self centered and arrogant.
Likewise, work calls. Catch you guys later.
Carolina Girl wrote:
McVeigh was a sociopathic mass murderer.
I really don’t buy into any sympathy for him…none at all.
There are vets with far more horrific stories and missing limbs who do not go on the warpath against US civilians.
lobo91 wrote:
An ATF agent was recently arrested at a hotel where he had replaced a door with a self-made plywood panel featuring a glory hole. many young (legal age) men were seen to have been entering.
He was arrested for lewd acts and defacement of property I believe.
Carolina Girl wrote:
As with most situations in which there are two perspectives: The Truth is normally somewhere in the middle.
Given it was the same administration that defied a long-standing administrative decision to allow cubans legal status if they set foot in this country, by going in (guns drawn) to kidnap a child and send him to Cuba to be with a father that didn’t care about him until it was an international issue, I would side a touch on the Waco side….. though a cult is a cult and normally shouldn’t be coddled too much in the hindsight of history.
@ Silhouette:
Star Wars reference, awesome!
refugee000 @ 208:
A common excuse all these maniacs seem to use is the “suffering from PTSD” line.
These so called “PTSD” sufferers are getting stale in my opinion.
@ Beltfed:
It is the psycho-killer version of “hey man, I need that pot, man… I… uh….. got glaucoma, man!”
@ livefreeor die:
Bah ha ha ha!
That probably ticked off your friends, but I found it amusing. 
wolfie #124
*hanging head in shame*
You’re right. I’m so obviously a bigot. Profiling bovines is just so… so racist. I should ban myself.
I also apologize to the Laughing Cow, Elsie, Belle, Daisy, and any and all other cows, and any humans who found my remarks tasteless (I’m trying not to be “speciest” here).
I can also see how various dairy products may have been hurt by my callous views, so I also extend apologies to butter, milk, and yogurt.
Wolfie, if I tell you that “You rock!” and promise to buy “Mom jeans” from any Amazon stores you have, will you please reconsider letting me back on the blog?
Silhouette wrote:
Hasan also tried to have some of the men he treated when they returned from Iraq arrested for war crimes.
Damn, I shouldn’t have ever commenetd trying to tell McVeighs side of the story. I thought it would be informative to everyone. You must wonder what turns a patriotic, war hero, super soldier into a mass murdering terrorist. When I tried to explain where he was coming from based on his book, which was found not to have one lie in it by the guys who wrote it, I get slammed with MSM propoganda talking points.
Beltfed.
PTSD or not, its not a good idea to really piss off ones veterans. From that perspective I understood his rage. I will shut the fuck up now.
The Book is “American Terrorist” Don’t recall the authors but they were from Buffolo NY.
143 Lance Kates
Oh no, no, no!
I’d have to be strapped to a chair and my eye lids propped open with tooth picks to be forced to watch it.
I have watched the occasional show which refutes the nut ball conspiracy theories. I can tolerate those.
@ refugee000:
Timothy McVeigh lost it when he went from his “propaganda” phase to his “action” phase as he called it.
But what about Kenneth Trentadue?
To nitpick here –
Rodan, you’re partly right in that George III professed to be a Whig; which meant Progressive then, like a Guelph meant Progressive back in 13th century Italy.
But a King cannot out-Whig a rebel determined on rebellion, by nature…
The American Revolution was a Left movement by the standards of its day, at least in New England. It was supported by the hardcore Whigs in the UK (including Edmund Burke, and not the King); and in New England, much of it was fomented by Samuel Adams, who would have felt right at home next to Bill Ayers.
You might be thinking of what some call the American Reaction. This is of course when the Federalists scrapped the Articles of Confederation and demanded everyone sign the Constitution instead.
Not everyone liked the idea. Shays’ Rebellion 1786 was a populist rising against their lawful debts (chiefly amusing because Samuel Adams, that pig, had by then joined the guys in power); and the Whiskey Rebellion 1791 was a more-ideologically libertarian movement … which Washington crushed in person. Mind you in neither case can we call anybody involved Progressive – with the possible exception of the fuzzy-headed Thomas Jefferson, who mouthed off on Shays’ behalf. “Stupidly”, one might say.
I’m more interested here in the case of Rhode Island. They hadn’t even signed the Constitution when Washington was sworn in as President of the twelve more-united States. It was forced down RI’s throat. Rhode Islanders argued that the US, as then constituted, was a slave nation. It was Progressive, then, to oppose slavery.
RIX wrote:
and Killgore Trout has the irrefutable proof.
@ Geogrunt:
I can’t speak of the others, but I don’t think you said anything necessarily wrong. We just have differing viewpoints.
I, for one, welcomed your view. We disagree, but that doesn’t mean that you made a mistake by anything you said.
I think if you and I discussed things, we’d find quite a bit we likely DO agree on.
One of the things that makes things great here is that, unlike the blog most of us were banned from, we can disagree with one another and (with only a couple exceptions) still get along.
@ Zimriel:
Until the North tried to use slavery as a means to force federal will over individual and state will, there were many anti-slavery groups in the ‘South’ that were making great headway at abolishing slavery in each state.
But then, I find I am quite on the unpopular side when I try to make a claim so bold as to suggest that the “Civil War” (Also referred to as the “War of Northern Aggression” and the “Second American Revolution”) was more about states rights and fending off a federal government’s greed for power.
LanceKates, as I’m sure you’re aware, the secessionists became even more powerful in the North in 1812. I’ve argued that if Lincoln had lost in 1860 then the North would have seceded.
I have a theory (okay, I stole the theory, from the “Mencius Moldbug” blogger) that Progressivism has an historical arc, from the so-called Guelphs in Mediaeval Italy. The point of Progressivism is church power – some learned council decides what is Good and then everyone must accept that, by force. The Church itself became inconvenient so the Progressives became Calvinists and Puritans. Then the Puritans pissed too many people off so the Progressives set up a hodgepodge of universities, lefty churches and associations.
Whatever the merits of the cause which a Progressive chooses – the cause is always secondary to Progressive power.
For instance: I think that the White Guelphs had a point about feudal despotism and so were right to solicit help from the Pope; but their Black Guelph progeny just replaced that with Papal despotism. It set Italy back for centuries; because the Pope can’t help but suck at ruling a nation, which unfortunately requires a Macchiavelli.
I do stand by the statement that America’s Revolution was at first Progressive – but redeemed at the last minute, in a way France’s Revolution (say) was not.