Several times on Blogmocracy, the actions of the Serbs in the FYRs (former Yugoslav Republics) have come up for discussion. What is lacking in these discussions is the background, history, and ethnic tension that underlies the actions. This post will attempt to clarify how a culture of Serbian Orthodox Christians can end up as war criminals. What drives civilized men to massacre? This is part one in a series. Next, Did the US and NATO pick the wrong side in the Yugoslavian Wars?
The above map is for the 1st Serbian Empire in the late 1300′s. Do note the proximity of Serbia from Constantinople and Rome, between the Muslim Ummah and Western Christian Europe. Keep the geography in mind when considering the animosity between Roman Catholics, Muslims, and Orthodox Christians. The geography is at the crossroads of three religions and is in the path of later Muslim Expansion from what is now Turkey.
The Serbs, as a civilization, have occupied the area of what is now Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Bulgaria. By 825 A.D. Serbs are fully converted to Christianity. Over the next generations, Serbia becomes folded into the Eastern Empire of Byzantium. In 1054 the problems begin, the East West Schism between the Roman/Western Catholic Church and Byzantine/Eastern Orthodox Church. The Serbs choose the Orthodox version due to Byzantine pressure while the coastal areas choose the Roman version because of pressure from Venice.
By 1463, the Ottoman Turks (Muslims) take Serbia. For the Next 400 years, the areas of Serbia is a violent area full of intrigue, assassinations, and war between East and West. The land changes hands many times and the population migrates back and forth following any safety that can be found. It is in this period that the Slavs in Bosnia Herzegovina convert to Sunni Islam instead of fighting the Ottoman occupation. In 1766, the Ottomans abolish the Serbian Orthodox Church and subjugate it to Constantinople, and Southern Serbia is colonized by Albanian and Turkish Muslims, uprooting the traditional Serb Orthodox populace.
The stage is set for continued conflict in the 20th Century. The Croatian Catholics are backed by Rome, the Bosnian Muslims are backed by Turkey and then heavily by Iran, the Serbian Orthodox are backed by Russia.
Events of WWII then set the stage for the Serbian actions in the 1990′s. The ethnic/religious splits listed above were exploited by Hitler when his armies invaded Yugoslavia. Hitler found willing allies in the Albanian, Kosovar, and Bosnian Muslims which were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini and Croatian Catholics led by the Pope in Rome and the Nazi Puppet leader of Croatia Ante Pavelic. The Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini was a famous anti-Semite. He preached that the Muslims in Yugoslavia should join the 13th Handschar Waffen SS division and the Muslim Albanians should join the 21st Skanderbeg Waffen SS Division, these same divisions would be implicated and found guilty of war crimes such as murder, ethnic cleansing, rape, forced migration against the Orthodox Serbs.
The Catholic Church, through blessings and cooperation from Rome and the active participation of the clergy, especially the Franciscan order in Croatia, were directly responsible for total support of the creation of Ante Pavelic’s fanatical Catholic Ustashe. The end result is ethnic cleansing of Orthodox Serbs and the creation of the Jasenovac Concentration Camp in Croatia, staffed by Ustashe of both Catholic and Muslim religions were responsible for 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews, and 25,000 Gypsies murdered. Yes murdered, not killed in war, murdered in a concentration camp so that the expanded Greater Croatian State could be for Catholics and Muslims only. More people were murdered in the Jasenovac Concentration Camp than died in actual war in Yugoslavia. Pope John-Paul II apologized for this atrocity in 1997.
During the later half of the 20th Century, Yugoslavia, which contained Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, (Vojvodina, and Kosovo were autonomous provinces of Serbia), with all of its ethnic and religious differences is brought under one state by Josip Broz Tito, former leader of the Socialist ‘Partisans’ who fought the Nazi occupiers in WWII. He was able to keep the peace by squashing, violently at times, any hint of nationalism that would occasionally pop up. His leadership by force and personality could not survive his death.
After Tito dies in 1980, Yugoslavia starts to fall apart. The old ethinic hatred is brought right back up to the surface, by the 1990′s war occurs again. Alija Izetbegovic becomes president of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He is the connection to WWII. He was a recruiter for the SS Handschar division and collaborated with the ABWER and GESPTAPO to send Serbs to Jasenovac Concentration Camp. In 1970 he published the Islamic Declaration, where he argues for Sharia law and the creation of an Iranian style Muslim Republic in Bosnia. He also received massive funding from Iran to become president of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Bosnian and Kosovar Serbs become the victims of ethnic hatred and clashed with Muslims and Croatian Catholics. The poor economic condition of the erea at the time helped fuel the fire. Meanwhile, in Croatia, Fanjo Tudjman publicly denies the extent of the Massacre of the Serbs in WWII. This causes fear in the 13% Serbian population in Croatia. War in Croatia breaks out in 1990. The Orthodox Serbs in Croatia fear for their lives and property. Given the history, who can blame them? By 1992, Bosnia-Herzegovina, led by Izedbegovic and backed by Croatia and Iran and other Muslim countries is at war against the Serbs in both Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia proper.
By 1995, the Serbs have the upper hand and allow the anger of the atrocities against them from WWII all the way back to 1054 to get the best of them and the Srebrenica Massacre occurs in July of 1995, 8,000 mostly men are murdered. The Army of the Republic of Serbia and the paramilitary group Scorpions are responsible, I cant say if it was out of revenge for Jasenovac, or out of fear, or both.
For some reason, the caterwauling Christian Amanpour and the rest of the CNN/BBC crew never really bothered to explain to the American people why this massacre occurred. It is as if the Serbs acted in a vacuum, the approximately 800,000 total murders never happened. According to the press and the Clinton State Dept history in the Balkans started with Milosevic in 1988, the history from the above was never discussed; Izedbegovic was an innocent peacemaker, Croatia had never done anything wrong. Yes the Serb Army and Scorpions should not have done what they did in Srebrenica, but they did not act in a vacuum without any history.
End of part 1.
Tags: Muslim Lies
jasenovac concentration camp research
another source
And people still can’t understand why the Holocaust happened. Centuries of simmering hate and bigotry produce these results. When you have centuries-old feuds and factions rubbing against each other, there is bound to be an explosion. This is basic human nature, alas.
Being a Serbian – American, I wish our involvement in Serbia was against the Kosovo muslims.
On a lighter note.
Moran thinks Schultz should run for Senate, a Republican is glad he doesn’t support Olbermann
http://jumpinginpools.blogspot.com/2009/12/congressman-moran-supports-ed-schultz.html
Just conducted an interview with a fine fellow who is running for Congress.
http://jumpinginpools.blogspot.com/2009/12/interview-with-republican-candidate-for.html
Titos family changed their name…at least the ones that came to America. I should know, they are my cousins. i will not give out the name change though.
@ timbok:
Being a Catholic Croatian American I wish we had sided with the Orthodox rather than the damn moes. They don’t like to talk about this in my family.
From Clinton did Al Gore learn the big lie method.
Al Gore chose CO2.
Clinton chose air strikes.
@ NoThreat2U:
i knew you would be up on all this
@ coldwarrior:
I am eagerly awaiting part 2. Like I said, my family doesn’t like to talk about this. Most of them are gone now so I am not sure if my Mother knows the whole story. Thanks for the info.
Just a side comment: these kinds of posts are, IMO, where the Blogmocracy concept shines. We can bring together a lot of knowledge and expertise into some fairly deep and detailed discussions simply by virtue of the size and diversity of the pool of contributors. More, please.
This post was BRILLIANT.
Thanks, Coldwarrior! Home run!
@ snork:
Well said. There is a dearth of knowledge here.
@ NoThreat2U:
With respect, I don’t think you meant “dearth.” Perhaps “wealth” or “plethora”?
The hands of my gray matter are clapping. Bravo
goddessoftheclassroom wrote:
A plethora of monkeys?
/3 Amigos
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
Really? Well I stand corrected. I will now go look up the definition of dearth. lol Plethora will be fine
Dearth means inadequate? I really thought it was the opposite. Oh my I feel like an idiot. lol lol
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
Though that certainly applies to this topic in general. I think even after American bombings in the 90′s most American’s could locate these places on a map. No dominant easily sterotyped culture, I guess, rather a variety of foreign named fueding ethnicities that seemingly has nothing to do with us.
Except Islam has global ambitions, and it is illustrating to see how well it mixes with others, outside of PC platitudes.
@ snork:
“Would you say I have a …plethora…of gifts?”
-El Guappo
Nikis Knight wrote:
I would have hoped that after all that happened, that most Americans could explain why the US was there, and fighting on that side. But that’s the next installation, I guess.
@ coldwarrior:
This link is painful to me.
Can any of our posters here tell me if Cetnik is a slur like Kfir or a more neutral term for Serbs?
Great post, coldwarrior.
Interesting how the Christian Serbs, who fought the brutish muslims off 400 years ago, are the bad guys.
I always sided with the Serbs. I will never stand with the muslims.
Zero can have them.
@ NoThreat2U:
Let us just day that where there was a dearth of knowledge, now there is a plethora.
Thanks Coldwarrior! Wonderful post!
This was a conflict that never made any sense to me (or our involvement) and the MSM certainly did nothing to help clarify it for me. It just sounded as though nobody over there was a peach. That they were all genocidal madmen.
Also, the religion of any of the players was never mentioned, though even if it had been (this being pre-9/11) I’m not sure it would have been as significant as it is today.
@ MacDuff:
Good idea
I tend to see the democrats primarily siding with leftover Nazi’s in the Balkans and in Israel. Explains why Obama sides up to the mullahs in Iran
I am grateful to Italy – her high healed boot makes it easy to find surrounding countries.
On a serious note, there was a “true story action” movie made a long time ago – really a good one, about an American pilot who observed hidden mass graves where Muslims had slaughtered hundreds of Christians.
He reported this back to superiors and he was told to destroy the evidence. He got shot down, and he could have been rescued several times but the rescue was aborted several times (at the last seconds) – he finally gets out -
I wish I could remember the name of the movie because I would like to see it again. I may have some facts messed up. Ring a bell with anyone?
@ NoThreat2U:
Croatian and Serbs are brothers. In fact most Croats also regret fighting for the Muslims.
Silhouette wrote:
a chetnik is not a slur, it is a group that fought with nazis. there were serb partizans (socialists) and chetniks (nationalists/royalists).
vapig wrote:
It is important to them to portray all conflicts as pointless. Cycles of violence. Enough wrong to go around on both sides. Age-old rivalries where no one can remember what started them. Etc.
Because if everyone believes all fights are pointless, when it comes time to conquer them, they will believe it is pointless to fight.
@ Silhouette:
Calling a Serb a Chetnik is a compliment!
It’s like calling a Hispanic a Tercio/Conquistador!
@ vapig:
thanks all.
part 2 will clarify how/why we got involved, the other main players and what the KLA is all about…right now its a freakin mess, i have two computers running!
and to be clear, i am not in any way serbian or croatian…not are any of my ancestors from central europe.
@ Rodan:
I think a lot of this is why my family left the old country. Some of their immigration papers are very confusing. The whole Austria-Hungarian Empire thingy.
@ vapig:
The conflict was started by Muslims. Haven’t you noticed that Muslism are at conflicts with all it’s neighbors?
Serbia, Russia, Israel, India, Philippines, Ethiopia, China and Thailand all have conflict with Islam. It’s not a coincidence.
Rodan wrote:
that may be the case now…but from 1054 to 2000 they were not friendly, thanx vatican!
@ yah:
yes…i cant recall whit the title is…
The Serbs were painted as the second coming of the Third Reich, and the poor Muslims as the victims. It was just more Clintonion bullshit, and ever since, the word “Serb” has been soiled.
I say that, in any conflict, if you take the side fighting the Mulsims, you’ll be on the right side…if for no other reason that the Muslims will never be grateful and they’ll eventually stab you in the back.
@ Rodan:
They are like locusts, bringing destruction with them wherever they go. And in the end, they have their own little sliver of an “autonomous region”. And that is when it really gets fun.
NoThreat2U wrote:
i purposely glossed over all of that, or i would still be writing three months from now!
the area went back and forth between austro-hungary and ottoman for centuries
@ NoThreat2U:
Well from what I have been reading the Serbs and Croats get along very well now. In fact Serb and Croats have done joint exercises now. You can take a guess who the enemy is.
Croats and Serbs should never fight, you are all brothers!
@ MacDuff:
CNN carried all the water from him on that one.
@ coldwarrior:
I was always told about the animosity amongst us, but no one could ever say exactly WHY.
@ coldwarrior:
In an account I was just reading of Srebrenica, the Muslim witness is calling the Serbs Cetniks, thus the question. I’m googling Cetniks/Chetniks and getting all SORTS of different accounts. Interesting enough, in the very anti-Serb account of Srebrenica is this:
Hand-grenades and automatics? I guess that doesn’t preclude them from being all civilians…
@ MacDuff:
In all honesty, I;m Glad the united States was not around during the 8th-15th Century. If they were, the Spanish would of been attacked by America for ridding their land of Islam.
coldwarrior wrote:
Can you remember any of the actors?
@ coldwarrior:
It would be one hell of a story, that’s for sure. It would take a long time to explain it all. lol
@ Rodan:
I am glad we figured that out. We have a common enemy. Maybe the Catholics were hoping they would be eaten last????
@ Rodan:
Well, yes, I know that now! I certainly didn’t know that back then. Back then I was not political at all, lived in the Midwest and basically thought muzzies were just like any other religion.
It just never ceases to amaze me (no matter who is in power) how many times our country has pummeled Christians to save muzzies and they still attack us again and again.
@ Silhouette:
Nope the Muslims killed at Srebinica were fighters. In fact 30% were Arabs (AL-Qaeda, Egyptian Islamic Jihad and Hizb’ALlah).
Rodan wrote:
Muslims don’t have allies. Hugo Chavez thinks he has tis great relationship with Dinnerjacket, but as soon as he turns his back on the Muslim midget, he’ll get one up his sizable ass.
If you are looking for angelic guys in white hats in the Balkans, you are looking in vain. There are so many acts of cruelty and vengeance on all sides that it sets my teeth on edge.
The crimes of Nazi Croatia, as cw says, were particularly egregious even for that region. Nor can they be relegated to the past, as long as Croatia refuses to face them head on. (The modest memorial at the site of Jasenovac has been repeatedly vandalized, BTW, which doesn’t say much for the Croats or their government.)
Meanwhile, one of the biggest problems for Christians in many Muslim areas is the lack of unity — to put it kindly — between Catholics and Orthodox. They are going to keep on bickering and bashing each other until the Muslim beast swallows them both up.
@ yah:
“Behind Enemy Lines” with Owen Wilson?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159273/
@ vapig:
I never liked Islam. My Grandfather is a Spaniard and taught me at young age that Muslims tried to exterminate Spanish people. My Grandmother Dominican of Lebanese Origins hated them more than Grandpa. I never liked Islam since I can talk.
@ Rodan:
Yeah – poor Milosovich! All he had to do was wait a decade and he would have been hailed a hero instead of a villian.
@ NoThreat2U:
I think the Croats realized that now.
@ Silhouette:
there are so many layers of lies and half truths throughout this whole thing…
@ vapig:
He was killed in jail. In fact he was providing evidence against Al-Qaeda and Iran.
@ wolfie:
Well you figure, you had Roman Catholics coming form the west….islam coming from the south, with the Orthodox right in the center. I guess the Catholics thought the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Wow, how is that working out for ‘em now??
@ Rodan:
I’m English and my family has been in America for four hundred years. We don’t know from islam.
Russkilitlover wrote:
Yes, that is the movie. Thank You. I had some facts mixed up. But it’s still a really good movie.
@ vapig:
Well Spain was on the front-line of Islam for 700 years. Then we were the only European power to go toe to toe with the Turks and defeat them.
@ Rodan:
Not true – our founders weren’t the idiots we have now. When Thomas Jefferson read the koran (the same koran that jerk
Ellison swore his oath on) he knew for a fact that islam and Democracy would never mesh.
@ Rodan:
That was a little sarcasm on my part because the account I was reading called them civilians in every other word.
Does anyone else remember that one newstory about the Israel-Hizb’allah war where the reporter wrote civilian civilians?
I bet we are all Serb sympathizers now. lol
@ Rodan:
Again, I know that now. Just I knew about the Crusades (English history) but didn’t know the why of the Crusades.
9/11 changed all that for me.
NoThreat2U wrote:
Stinks. And both sides have to get over it.
@ vapig:
@ NoThreat2U:
@ Silhouette:
@ yah:
@ coldwarrior:
Haven’t you all noticed that the propaganda against Serbia, is what they are using against israel today?
In Fact Goldstone was behind much of the anti-Serb propaganda as well.
California.
Wants to borrow/be bailed out via $8 Billion of our tax money.
Wants to borrow $40 billion to build more ways to bring water from norht to the south.
If the U.S. Congress bails out these dumb ass commie Democrats in California, there will be a revolution. Not one dime for trubute to commie Democrat over spending loons of California.
Done.
Sorry to go OT but this is hilarious esp considering where the story was found.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/8692_Steyn-_Penis_Paranoia
@ NoThreat2U:
I always have been and always will be!
Long live the Brave Serb people! One day Kossovo will be liberated! Croatia and Serbai will divide Bosnia and send the Bosniaks packing to Turkey, where they belong!
@ taxfreekiller:
Agree 100% with you!
Zero is speaking now. gak,
His voice is so grating with the false bravado and weird word emphasis in an attempt to sound authoritarian and in control. bla bla bla BLA. bla bla BLA BLA. bla bla Bla bla Bla.
Let’s face it; wherever there are Muslims there will be conflict. Foolish people think that there will be a “reform” movement withing Islam, but they already had their “reform” and instead of becoming more liberalized, they became even more radicalized.
Theirs is a two-pronged belief system; partially religious, but heavily political. They want peace with no one; in their mind peace can only come from Islamic domination. This is the may it was, is, and will be.
This is a war for the very survival of our civilization; there will be no truce, no peace, only the total destruction of one side or the other.
NoThreat2U wrote:
You should see the sympathy in my heart for Vlad the Impaler.
Rodan wrote:
There really does seem to be some better understanding between Serbs and Croats these days. I hope it’s a big trend. An alliance between Catholics and Orthodox in the Balkans would be a huge development, IMO. And this is something that can happen without any church leaders involved….i.e., from the ground up.
Let Popes and Patriarchs bicker all they like, the people may be wiser and recognize Islam as the true enemy.
@ wolfie:
Iagree completely!
@ Rodan:
I never looked at it that way, therefore, I haven’t seen the parallels. I will look into it further though.
@ Rodan:
**clap** **clap** **clap**
vapig wrote:
Which is like teaching WWII history by starting with D-Day. “You see kids, the Americans and English started this by invading the Third Reich in 1944.”
MacDuff wrote:
I agree. Everywhere you have muslims pushing into countries, you have conflict as they seek to dominate. They don’t understand co-exist.
@ Silhouette:
I was gonna say my MySpace name, but let me just say it involves Vlad
Interesting historical perspective. That two Christian sects did not recognise the ciommon Islamic eneemy & unite is a tragedy.
I am embaarrased that Roman Catholics made any alliance with Muslims.
The intramurals between Roman Catholics & the Orthodox had to be really intense.
wolfie wrote:
what has to happen is for at least two generations to understand that the muzzies are the enemy, not the orthodox church down the road, or the catholics in the next town. the christians will be able to heal in the face of modern muslim aggression
Just as we were told what a “monster” the Shah of Iran was. The fact is that he modernized that country, brought education to women and was a friend to the West. He became a “monster” when confronted with the Islamic revolution and he fought them tooth and nail and was merciless in his efforts.
chickadee wrote:
@ MacDuff:
now thats a whole nother story right there!
@ NoThreat2U:
Just OT, but I like this avatar much better than the former one. I’m still seeing the former one at work.
[Shudder]
ARTICLECOMMENTS (0)Updated December 29, 2009
Obama: ‘Systemic Failure’ Allowed Terror Suspect to Board Flight
FOXNews.com
President Obama said Tuesday that a “systemic failure” in security allowed a passenger to board a Detroit-bound flight armed with explosives last week.
PRINTEMAILSHARE RECOMMEND (0)
President Obama said Tuesday that a “systemic failure” on multiple levels allowed a passenger to board a Detroit-bound flight armed with explosives last week.
He said information about the terror suspect was not properly shared among intelligence agencies, but should have landed him on a no-fly list well before he boarded the Northwest Airlines flight in Amsterdam.
“The warning signs would have triggered red flags and the suspect would have never been allowed to board that plane for America,” Obama said. “A systemic failure has occurred, and I consider that totally unacceptable.”
But But But But I thought profiling was illegal?
MacDuff wrote:
Money quote there.
“Reformation” in Islam means getting back to the Koran. It always has meant that. Not good.
OT (sorry)
I wish this quote had confirmed attribution…
@ wolfie:
Orthodoxs and all Christians and Jews are my brothers. That’s how I see it.
coldwarrior wrote:
AMEN.
@ Rodan:
Amen.
@ Iron Fist:
Awww sorry. But understand….it was just a poke in someone’s eye. lol lol
“A systemic failure has occurred, and I consider that totally unacceptable.”
Well guess what Obama, So do I. I also find YOU unacceptable.
And its not all about you. Couldn’t you say “that is totally unacceptable.”
@ coldwarrior:
Didn’t Albania have an even bigger native Muslim population? There aren’t that many reports of problems in that ex-hermit kingdom.
Rodan wrote:
I couldn’t agree more!
calcajun wrote:
see part two…KLA tomorrow….
@ wolfie:
That is happening. We can’t tell each other apart anymore. When someone says their last name, we have to ask “Croatian or Serbian”? Some are both! Both answer “Who cares!?!?!” WE don’t care…at least not over here in America.
@ Rodan:
Never understood how Christians could hate Jews when the former worships as God one of the latter.
@ calcajun:
They are now the Kosovars.
@ coldwarrior:
Thanks
If anyone is interested in a good book based in this region (Yugoslavia) and WWII, I highly recommend this one..
The Forgotten 500: The Untold Story of the Men Who Risked All For the Greatest Rescue Mission of World War II
Bombing of the Ploiesti, Romania, oil refineries, a key German resource, started in 1942. Allied pilots sustaining damage frequently bailed out over Serbia in German-occupied Yugoslavia, where the resistance and others hid them. By 1944, more than 500 were stranded and slowly starving. The OSS concocted the daring Operation Halyard to airlift them, but they had to construct a landing strip without tools and without alerting the Germans or endangering local villagers, and then the rescuers had to avoid being shot down themselves. The operation’s story is an exciting tale, but it was kept from general knowledge for decades; the resistance leader most responsible was a rival to Tito. Nazi-baited by a Stalinist mole in British intelligence, he was executed in 1946 with the consent of Britain and America, which thereafter refused to acknowledge having been snookered (the State Department kept many details classified more than 50 years). Evoking the rescuees’ successive desperation, wild hope, and joy, and their gratitude to the Serbians who risked their lives to help, Freeman produces a breathtaking popular account. Murray, Frieda
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
Dayum. I mean dayum. That is a monumental statement. For those that don’t want to follow the link, it says that the panty-bomber’s name was shared with the US from the UK back in May as a potential bad guy.
But because of changes from Bush-era to Obama-era, the US folks were no longer encouraged to flag potential terrorist info but are now encouraged to not be such evil racist meanies.
@ wolfie:
Reformation” in Islam means getting back to the Koran. It always has meant that. Not good
There was a Dem Congressman on one of the news shows the other day, I wish that I could remember his name. He claimed that the Underwear Bomber is an Infidel.
He reasoned that there is nothing in the koran that justifies what he tried to do.
He is either willfully ignorant or a fucnctional idiot.
goddessoftheclassroom wrote:
Harrumph… They attempt to drag Bush, once again, into the ongoing ‘snafu’ that is the B. Hussein admin.
@ Nevergiveup:
This has been Zero’s m.o. from the beginning. He says nothing at first. Then he delivers some meaningless platitudes (ie. abt. Russia attacking Georgia, Iranian citizens protesting for their rights, the crotch jihadi). Then he comes out trying to talk like a tough guy in charge. It shows he doesn’t have an inherent ability to grasp and assess the situation. When he does speak immediately he always makes a fool of himself. “The cop acted stupidly.” “Honduras should reinstate the rightful Pres.”
Then comes the back peddling.
BTW, I don’t trust anything he says. Especially with these few tough sentences he has now just read abt. the muslim terrorist. Does he not understand we have heard his previous confused bull shit?
He does not inspire confidence.
calcajun wrote:
The pinnacle of irrationality.
@ Dolphin:
That would make one hell of a movie.
Sorry I am late to the party…I was vacationing in the Philippines when my machine broke and just got back on line with a new box and internet here in Japan. Coldwarrior awesome post, history is my passion and this is awesome (fire for effect).
On March 18th 1993, I embarked aboard the USS Saipan (LHA-2) may she build a fine coral bed, as a member of the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) or 26th MEU (SOC) from Camp Lejeune, NC. We steamed the Atlantic in 2 weeks, and following a couple training and liberty stops, we sailed into the Adriatic Sea in late April and stayed in place until June. Modified Location or ModLoc or as we call it (Gator Squares, hey we’re Amphibious). We sat sailing in small boxes in the Sea until a) the failure of the Vance Owens Peace Process in Dayton and b) the first massive tomahawk strikes on Iraq as retribution for the attempted assassination of President Bush the 1st in Kuwait. However, for 52 days we were the reaction force for the “new” President Clinton who had announced that ending the Bosnian conflict was his pressing foreign agenda.
Prior to inchopping into the 6th Fleet AO, we were fed significant garbage as to reasons and results of the evil Serbian actions in Bosnia. It wasn’t until we arrived and began to receive and collect our own information, that it became apparent that the CNN “intel” feed was generally one sided and not very well researched. As one of the first guys who would have left the comfort of Navy shipping and moving ashore as a part of an amphibious operation to conduct peace keeping operations, I was part of a small group of Marines who flew to Zagreb, Croatia to speak with our British Marine Commando brothers of the 44th Royal Marine Commando Regiment. We had a great discussion, but they presented significant information regarding the atrocities committed by both sides. Most interesting, and easiest to film was that the Serbs owned the high ground and most of the artillery. The Bosnian Muslims held urban areas, and fought from homes, businesses, churches and mosques. So the Serbs who were not hindered by restrictive Rules of Engagement; conducted frequent fire missions on Bosnian Muslim strongholds. I never learned their targeting process, but I have a feeling it was more refined than CNN would report, they seemed resigned or enthusiastic to showing houses and buildings getting shelled without substance or background. Anything to demonize the Serbs.
Lastly, in a more private intel brief we received from our Brit comrades, we learned of a “prisoner swap”. The Serbs delivered 2000 military aged males to the Bosnian muslims, the muslims pulled up in a few trucks and delivered 150 headless Serb corpses. Some swap. Nothing made me more leery of our “mission”, and muslims in general than that particular act. In late July of 93, the Dayton Accords process would begin, and fortunately would not be resolved for the remainder of our deployment.
Anyways, my story and I am sticking to it…again CW awesome post, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everybody…Semper Fidelis
chickadee wrote:
First, he simply has no idea of what he’s doing, but he does have a leftist ideology and it comes out in his “off the cuff” statements – that stuff is coming from his heart, and that’s scary. It’s Manchurian Candidate scary.
Second, he’s surrounded by people who no even less than he, after all, he does have to be (or appear to be) the smartest man in the room.
Third, when he backpedals, what does he actually DO? Nothing. It’s like he’s saying one thing to ameliorate the American people, but not taking any physical action, because it would discredit what he’s saying behind out backs.
@ bluliner10:
So is this the old “disporportionate response” theory? Funny how someone better equiped to fight off the muslims hordes is ALWAYS the bad guy. I say God picked a side and stuck to it. Ooh Rah!
The Serbs delivered 2000 military aged males to the Bosnian muslims, the muslims pulled up in a few trucks and delivered 150 headless Serb corpses. Some swap.
Sounds like something they would do.
ISLAM DELENDA EST
Coldwarrior,
Have you read The Shield of Achilles by Philip Bobbitt? He presents a very interesting perspective of the Balkan matter in chapter 15. Whether you agree with his conclusions or not it is well worth the time.
Gulf
I am amazed that Medura from the other place hasn’t weighed in, at least under an alias.
Good Post Coldwarrior. Worth a re read.