Seventy years ago this month, the U.S.S.R. under Joseph Stalin and his hangman Lavrenti Beria (head of the N.K.V.D.) ordered the executions in the forest of Katyn (in Belarus) and other nearby places of almost 22,000 Polish officers and soldiers that were taken prisoner during the Soviet invasion of Poland (in conjunction with the Nazi invasion begun on September 1, 1939). For decades the U.S.S.R. denied responsibility claiming that Nazi Germany committed the crime. To our eternal shame, the American and British governments in 1943 played along with it and backed the Soviet claim of Nazi responsibility even though there was compelling evidence that the men were executed by the Soviets (bound and shot in the back of the neck, typical N.K.V.D. style). It was not until Mikhail Gorbachev became Soviet premier that the U.S.S.R. finally admitted responsibility for the atrocity. Wednesday, Putin and Polish Premier Donald Tusk officially commemorated that horrificevent
Update: Daniel Hannan (the British member of the European parliament famous for his tongue lashing seen on youtube of Gordon Brown) has this to say today after the latest tragedy to hit Poland
Poland has suffered more than is any country’s right. Its story is one of repeated occupations, partitions and tyrannies. Sixty years ago (Ed. note -- it was seventy years ago) , almost to the day, 21,768 Polish army officers, intellectuals and senior civil servants were murdered by the Soviet NKVD in the forest near Katyn: an attempt by Stalin to decapitate Poland by liquidating its elite. For years, the crime went unacknowledged: Western governments, reluctant to face up to the reality of the regime to which they had allied themselves, went along with the pretence that the massacre had been carried out by the Nazis.
This morning, a few miles from Katyn, another decapitation occurred. A Russian plane crashed near Smolensk, carrying the President of Poland, Lech Kaczyński, his wife Maria, and dozens of senior Polish officials. They had been returning from a ceremony at the site of the Katyn atrocity, for which Russia finally admitted responsibility in 1990.
The reports in Britain will no doubt describe President Kaczyński as “a controversial figure” (the BBC has already started). Leftists resented him for pursuing a policy of lustration: that is, of requiring public servants to declare whether they had played a role in the previous Communist regime. These critics applauded a similar policy when it was imposed on former fascist countries after 1945 and, indeed, generally support the Spanish government in its attempts to reopen what happened under Franco but, for whatever reason, consider it tasteless to apply the same standard to former Communists.
Lech Kaczyński was a patriot: a man who never collaborated with the dictators or accepted the occupation of his country by the Red Army. Some Polish politicians, who had made occasional compromises – muting their criticism in return for being allowed to take up foreign postings, for example – found his purism uncomfortable. But ordinary Poles admired Kaczyński, and elected him with a handsome majority.
Several of my Polish friends worked with the President. I have spent all morning on the telephone and, thank God, none of them was on the plane. Many, though, sounded close to tears.
All Poles, including Kaczyński’s fiercest opponents, have been left stunned and drained by the news. Their country’s agonies continue, nay, that’s certain. But yet the pity of it.
by Michael Schwirtz
Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin joined his Polish counterpart on Wednesday in the first joint commemoration marking the anniversary of the murder of thousands of Polish officers by the Soviet Union at the beginning of World War II.
Mr. Putin met with Donald Tusk, the Polish prime minister, in Russia at a site in the Katyn forest close to the city of Smolensk, where 70 years ago members of the Soviet secret police executed over 20,000 Polish officers captured after the Soviet Red Army invaded Poland in 1939.
The circumstances surrounding the massacre have long been a major source of tension between Poland and Russia, and Wednesday’s tribute appears to be the latest step in an effort by both countries to patch up relations.
“The anniversary of the crimes at Katyn are very important for the Polish people,” said Robert Smigielski, an analyst with the Polish Institute of International Affairs in Warsaw. “You can say that it is the most problematic issue in relations between the Poles and the Russians.”
Only in the waning days of the Soviet Union did Moscow officially acknowledge the country’s role in the massacre, nearly half a century after the murders occurred. The Soviet government suppressed all information about the killings, blaming Nazi soldiers for the crime.
[...]
Many Russians view the war and the Soviet victory over the Nazis as a defining moment in their history. As many as 25 million Soviet citizens died in the war, according to some estimates, fighting, many here believe, for the liberation of Eastern Europe from Fascism.
Read the rest here: Putin Commemorates WWII Massacre
5 March 1940 memo from Lavrentiy Beria to Joseph Stalin, proposing execution of Polish officers
Katyn forest massacre
Tags: Katyn Massacre, Michael Schwirtz
Well I’m glad Russia is coming clean about this.
@ Rodan:
Only kinda sorta. Putin later tried to say that Stalin did in in revenge for the way Soviet prisoners were treated by the Nazis. I guess that also explains why the Soviets held Poland as a vassal state for fifty more years.
@ Iron Fist:
Hey I’m thinking of pulling and rescheduling this thread.
Socialism = Communism = Stalinism = Genocide
Rodan wrote:
This should have been the 8PM thread.
@ Speranza:
We didn’t have an open slot at 8.
Check your email.
@ Rodan:
OT. did you see ACE’s latest post?
Another reason why we should all be Poles today. Good thing also that Beria was discovered to be a pedophile little bastard.
The Soviets tried to blame the Germans, but the Germans did the autopsies and found the signature bullet holes in the base of the neck. Charming people, the Soviets.
The Katyn massacre occurred at the time of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The Soviets and the Nazis collaborated in the destruction of Poland. Andrzej Wajda’s movie about the massacre makes this clear. In the film, one of the officers of the Uhlans (Polish cavalry unit) who is taken prisoner by the Soviets and executed at Katyn has a father who is a Professor at Jagiellonian University in Krakow. The film also depicts the SS “Sonderaktion Krakau” where the professors were rounded up and sent to Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
The goal of both the Soviets and Nazis was to eliminate the military and civilian leadership of Poland that was likely to provide a core of resistance.
Once the Nazis turned on the Soviets, the Poles remaining in Soviet captivity were either put into Polish units in the Red Army if they had Socialist sympathies, or due to pressure from Churchill on Stalin, were allowed to exit the Soviet Union via Iran and join up with the British Army in Mandate Palestine. These units were known as the “Anders Army” after their general, and fought in the Italian campaign, distinguishing themselves at the Battle of Monte Cassino.
Tragic. Possibly even more so when it’s the leader of a country which understood, far better than the fools on the left, the failure of Communism/Socialism.
9. calcajun
The Soviets tried to blame the Germans, but the Germans did the autopsies and found the signature bullet holes in the base of the neck.
Plenty of people believed the lie for a long time though. Cannot remember the guys name, but one of Stalin’s butchers who was at Katyn stated he “preferred the german Luger over the russian pistols as they didn’t jam when they get hot.”
OT: Just spoke to the wife. The rumour mill in Moscow has it that the crash was perpetrated by …. the CIA. Didn’t quite understand the motive, but never let a crisis go to waste.
The more I learn about particular atrocities of WWII, the less I like people. Seriously, human beings can be exceptionally cruel to other human beings. It’s beyond anything anyone should ever be asked to experience, to endure, to even attempt to understand. If I could, I’d go live in relative isolation.
I watched Defiance on Resurrection Day (Easter Sunday). I have never before wanted to kill someone. I wanted the Bielsky brothers to take revenge. And I was glad when it happened. I was glad whenever they fought and won and I felt no remorse for the other side. I’m sure that’s just an exceptionally small fragment of what the Bielsky family (what remained of them in the forest) and the others felt. I wasn’t ashamed to feel that way either. Nor was I shocked. I think we all need to fully look at these atrocities and the horrific details and vigilantly observe the world around us and decide what we will do if we see signs of this inhumanity rearing it’s hideous head. I know many already believe signs of this have already been observed. I do not doubt you.
@ Buckeye Abroad:
That’s amusing.
Lack of motive aside, people give the CIA way too much credit for being even marginally competent.
Historically, they’ve been much closer to Wile E. Coyote than to James Bond…
Buckeye Abroad wrote:
Interesting. In Wajda’s movie some of the NKVD assassination squads are depicted as using German Lugers. But it is not explicitly stated whether they did this because of reliability or to make it look like the Germans perpetrated the massacre…the Luger and the Soviet Tokarev and Czarist era Nagant revolver are different caliber pistols and any forensic examiner would notice this difference.
@ Kirly:
I need to watch that movie. As well as Wajda’s War Trilogy: “A Generation”, “Kanal” and “Ashes and Diamonds”.
@ Buckeye Abroad:
Motive? Who needs motive? Russians are paranoid by nature and Russia’s foreign policy for the last century or two has been dominated by the need to make sure that Russia’s enemies are too busy fighting each other to harm Russia. The few times they’ve let down their guard they’ve only had the view reinforced – though that might be down to the dancing partners they chose.
Anyway, for the Russians to assume that the CIA caused the crash is par for the course. Background noise in a nation composed entirely of conspiracy theorists.
14. lobo91
Lack of motive aside, people give the CIA way too much credit for being even marginally competent.
Oh, I completely agree. Today only 20% of them are actual field agents and even then the heavy lifting is out sourced.
Historically, they’ve been much closer to Wile E. Coyote than to James Bond…
I think Valeria Plame, not Wile E. Coyote. Wile makes me laugh while Valeria reminds me of the many self-serving, contemptious bureaucrats I loathe.
The Osprey wrote:
good plan. it’s what was happening outside the camps and ghettos depicted in Schindler’s List. The director (in the extras) says he learned of many stories of armed resistance occurring all over europe in contrast to only hearing of those who were trapped unarmed and lead to their deaths. It’s difficult and unpleasant but I’m glad to know it. I love one line in the movie where one character says something like they didn’t think Jews fought (meaning in armies), and Zus Beilsky says something like “These Jews do”. And well they should have then and should still today and forever. I’m buying the book too since I’m sure there will be many more details. Unpleasant as they may be, we should know them.
@ Kirly:
And have you seen Inglourious Basterds yet? THAT‘s an ultimate Revenge movie too!
15. The Osprey
But it is not explicitly stated whether they did this because of reliability or to make it look like the Germans perpetrated the massacre…the Luger and the Soviet Tokarev and Czarist era Nagant revolver are different caliber pistols and any forensic examiner would notice this difference.
I fired a Tokarev once– I understand why they would use a Luger. I have head it said that the russian ammunition wasn’t the greatest either.
17. archonix
Background noise in a nation composed entirely of conspiracy theorists.
I think it comes from having an oppressive regime with its boot on your neck. The boot may change, but its always there– communists, bolsheviks, czars, foreign invaders (german, french, poles, swedes, tar-tars, mongolians, etc…). Plus the truth might be to haunting to confront, so the lie becomes not only convenient but indispensable.
Macker wrote:
nope, haven’t seen that. in fact, there are very few movies which i see when they are new and in theatres. so, that being rather new, it isn’t really even on my radar yet.
Let’s not forget how the Red Army sat outside of Warsaw in August 1944 and watched the Nazis slaughter the Home Army as well as 200,000 Polish civilians during the Warsaw Uprising. AS Churchill said “The Bolsheviks can be very cruel”. No kidding!
Where did everybody go -to a bathroom break?
@ Speranza
The Red Army sat there for 3 weeks listening to the slaughter. When you walk around old Warsaw, whats left of it, you will see a sign commemorating the date and people murdered on that particular corner. Not just the victims of the nazis either.
Where did everybody go -to a bathroom break?
You echoed my thoughts these last 20 minutes. I am the killer of threads of late.
Speranza wrote:
in between the normal saturday house work, pool cleaning, and weed killing, i sit down to read and find this
my dad actually climbed through a small window (about the size of the porthole on a ship) at the age of 16 and ripped open the lock of the door with his bare hands on a moving train with no ledge to stand on. How my dad, aunt and Zeyda jumped from a moving train after the Germans had already discovered the open cattle car and began to shoot. How they survived their jump, found their people, and eventually reunited with their mother and sister
it’s a story as told by a descendant of the Bielsky partisans. the entire website is a memorial of the survivors from lida.
Kirly wrote:
Sad thing is that a lot of people had to trade Hitler for Stalin as their masters.
Speranza wrote:
what a choice.
seriously, i like people less and less these days. the evil they do to each other.
Kirly wrote:
To think that we were told by our leaders that Stalin was “Uncle Joe” – he was every bit as terrible as Hitler. that is why I have zero sympathy for the Hollywood 10 or whatever they were called – so many of them were out and out Stalinists.
@ Speranza:
That would be a hell of a choice to have to make. With all the power of hindsight, I’m not sure that the Nazis wouldn’t have been the better choice for non-Jews. For Jews, Stalin might have been a slightly better hope of survival. Both of them were murderous and evil regiems. Both of them were far worse than what we have now. I objected when Bush was called “Hitler” and I object when Obama is called “Stalin”. Obama is a Socialist, possibly a full-bore communist, and the worst president America has ever had, but he has a long way to go to being another Stalin.
What a shame that this thread, if I might modestly say so, was an excellent one – got only 29 posts.
@ Iron Fist:
Stalin was a murderous paranoid. In certain ways he was more dangerous then Hitler. Obama is not a Stalinist – although a lot of his friends in his life were – he is a neo Marxist.
@ Iron Fist:
Stalin also was a ferocious anti Semite as well.
Speranza wrote:
To think of the generations who lived under the Nazi boot, only to then live under the Soviet boot is likely one of the saddest, yet inspirational stories of our time, or any time. To maintain humanity and to exibit heroism in the face of unspeakable brutality should make “never again” the mantra of every soul who has tasted the sweet nectar of freedom an liberty.
Alas, too many take this life for granted, and are willing to trade it for a few pieces of other people’s silver. Each time that happens, we all die just a little bit inside.
MacDuff wrote:
I think of the Poles and Czechs.
28. Kirkly
seriously, i like people less and less these days. the evil they do to each other.
The more you know the worse it gets.
Focus on the good that people do voluntarily without compulsion. There are alot of good people out there, but their faces will never be on CNN or the BBC (or any other network pining for ratings).
G-d knows his own.
Kirly wrote:
Before the movie was even made I read the book. Very good. There is the lie that the Jews didn’t fight back. Wrong…they fought as hard as they were able to against a well stocked army.
@ Speranza:
I compeletly agree I would have thought hundreds of comments would be posted.
I will check back later….time to eat.
Also any and all commenters and readers need to post on this subject.
There is loads of information on this subject.
30. Iron Fist
Obama is a Socialist, possibly a full-bore communist, and the worst president America has ever had, but he has a long way to go to being another Stalin.
You do know that Bill Ayers, one of the boys from Obama’s past, made a comment about 25 million Americans might need to be executed to enfore the correct political view?
Get on the boxcar at your own peril my friend.
Lily wrote:
yes indeed. and i will be buying this book as well. the one by nechama tec
@ Buckeye Abroad:
Why do you think sales of guns and ammunition have gone through the roof since Obama’s election?
@ Buckeye Abroad:
they sat there and coldly discussed establishing re-education camps in the southwest and eliminating the 10% (25 million of 250 million at the time) of the population who were diehard capitalists and could not be re-educated. Literally “figuring out the logistics for eliminating 25 million people”. And people get upset when we liken them to hitler. i don’t know why. does anyone actually think hitler didn’t dream of his final solution for years before he put it to action? there is no difference except that these maniacs have not yet been able to put their plans into action. but their pals are now in positions of power.
they expected russian, china, cuba to want to ccupy various portions of the USA.
heh. Was the movie Red Dawn inspired by these eye witness accounts?
i wonder why they chose the southwest for their planned re-education camps. gonna let us all die in the desert or something and then call it some sort of misfortune? or is their plan returning the southwest to Mexico? These people are disgusting, regardless of why the choose the southwest.
Some of these people were related to those or were children during the nazi occupation and grew up under the commie boot. To die under these circumstsnces is unfathomable.
I put “Ezekiel Emmanuel” into the google search bar and the two of the automatic choices are euthanasia and eugenics. another is his complete lives system. as in, your life is complete when the government says it is. ala George Bernard Shaw who fought for the rights of the downtrodden by advocating elminating them if they weren’t as productive as the government decided they needed to be.
i like my socalled betters (ie, the elitist wanna-be murders) even less than other people.
Describing the area of the crash and massacre, which is nearby.
Indeed. A principality of satan.
@ Kirly:
Don’t you love all these lofty descriptives of the horrors these swine want to perpetrate upon us? Complete Lives, Comparative Efeectiveness,et al = death panels.Reminds me of the nazis with their Disinfection and Sanitation rooms.
41. lobo91
Why do you think sales of guns and ammunition have gone through the roof since Obama’s election?
From what I have read, Americans have bought 14 million firearms in 2009 alone. A record year. Bulk ammuntion is still scarce. Yeah, I
clingbelieve in my faith and my ability to defend it. Their hatred does not sway me, but entrenches it. Never again.vagabond trader wrote:
exactly. and their final solution. they only get angry when we make the comparison because they aren’t yet ready to unveil themselves and their plans.
42. kirly
there is no difference except that these maniacs have not yet been able to put their plans into action. but their pals are now in positions of power.
I know my enemy. Alot of Americans don’t, but they are slowwwwlllly coming around.
wonder why they chose the southwest for their planned re-education camps
Easy. Because if anyone escaped they would not be close to relating the truth and would most probably have died from dehydration before reaching safety.
Governer Brewer is expected to sign a bill which has already passed our state house and senate which allows people over 21 to carry concealed with no permit.
While it’s good that this might indeed happen, i’m offended at the thought that i need a state law to allow me to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights.
My sympathies go out to the Polish people. They have suffered so much throughout their history. I hope no one takes advantage of this crisis.
What a sad bad news day. How gut wrenching to think abt. all of this tragedy and murder at once.
Prayers for those who perished in the plane crash. And prayers for Poland.
@ Buckeye Abroad:
That is true. And Obama more than bears watching. But the nature of our government prevents him, in the short term, of implementing such a scheme. We are a heavily armed populace. You simply cannot do the kinds of things Stalins did, like in Leningrad when he arrested half odf the city’s inhabitants, to a heavily armed society if they have the will to resist. You have to have a virtual monopoly on force before you can start rounding up millions of people and marching them into the ovens. That is one big reason for my extremely strong support of the Second Amendment and the necessity of arms to the preservation of freedom.
@ Iron Fist:
Obama is more like Chavez than Hitler or Stalin. He’s just a 3rd world thug type.
53. Iron Fist
But the nature of our government prevents him, in the short term, of implementing such a scheme.
My mother-in-law is a communist party Moscow-vite born several days before WWII ended. Even she said of O-man, “what he is doing is stupid. Americans will never stand for it as it must be done gradually.” The democrats are the perpetual teenagers never understanding the evils outside of their own households. The fact that most soviet educated russians who continue to flee Russia to seek a better life should be a warning.
We are a heavily armed populace.
May that ALWAYS be the case.
to a heavily armed society if they have the will to resist.
Breakng the will to resist is the foremost objective. The defense of the 2nd amemdment right has become a pseudo counter-insurgency tactic.
#54 Rodan
He’s just a 3rd world thug type.
I would have gone with chillian thug Allende.
The point was made in the above video that the subject of the Katyn Forest never came up at Nurenburg as the US and the Brits didn’t want to embarrass their new buddy, Uncle Joe. Interestingly, Judgment at Nurnenburg is on TCM right now. Heck of a cast; Spencer Tracy, Burt Lancaster, Judy Garland, Montgomery Clift, etc…
@ huckfunn:
Montgomry Clift’s performance was terrific – all 7 minutes of it but it was great. “Make a sentecne out of the words, Hare, Hunter, Field”.
@ Speranza:
I just watched that a few minutes ago. Richard Widmark played a great dickhead but I think that was his claim to fame.