Today, the 5th of Ayar on the Jewish calendar, is Israel Independence Day; a day when we commemorate nothing less than a modern-day miracle. After 2000 years of grueling exile, the Jewish people once again were a free people in their own land.
(The full text of The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel)
Israel; a tiny nation besieged by her Arab/Muslim neighbors even before its founding has made the barren desert bloom and continues to succeed against all odds.
May G-d continue to bless, protect and grow Israel!
Tags: Israel, Israel Independence Day
May 14 is Israel’s Independence Day. Nobody but Israel uses the Hebrew calendar.
62nd Israel Independence Day
April 2010
Israel’s Independence Day celebrates a double miracle in the life of the Jewish people.
The first miracle is the restoration of Jewish sovereignty. There is no other example that I know of in the history of nations in which a scattered people, practically left for dead, has been able to re-assert its national life.
The second miracle is what we’ve done since the establishment of the Jewish state. Israel is fact becoming a regional economic power and one of the world’s leading technological powers.
All the powers of creativity and genius in the Jewish people are bursting forth in every area: in science; in technology; in medicine; in the arts. This incredible burst of creativity promises a great future for the Jewish people and for all mankind.
This double miracle is a testament to the life-force of the Jewish people. It’s a testament to the deep wells of hope we carry inside us and to the deep connection that we have both to our past and to our future. The two miracles that have already occurred are only the beginning. If we stand together, if we remain committed to our common destiny, there’s nothing we cannot achieve.
Chag Sameach!
Sincerely,
Benjamin Netanyahu
Also here you can “visit” Israel without leaving your comfy computer chair.
Happy Birthday Israel!
@ Speranza:
Yeah I thought it was May 14th.
Oh well, Israel gets to celebrate twice.
Speranza wrote:
Every Jew celebrates every Jewish holiday according to the Jewish calendar whether in Israel or not.
right?
May G-d bless Israel and curse those who curse her.
Happy Birthday!!!!
BTW, I was watching that idiot Tariq Ramadan on tv last night. (Sometimes I like to watch people lie with a straight face) I cringed everytime he mentioned the “creation” of Israel. I HATE when people say that! It has always been there! It wasn’t just “created” 62 years ago. Some people act as if there was never a nation called Israel, ever. Grrrrrrrr that makes me so mad!
@ NoThreat2U:
resurrection maybe more accurate
NoThreat2U wrote:
As long as people remember that the nations of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, among others, were actually created out of the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire at most a mere 19 years before Israel won its independence, that the nations of India and Pakistan were created at the same time as Israel, and that many of the nations of Africa were created after the birth of Israel, I have no problem with it.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
hey and how is that Pakistan thing workin out?
Rorschach wrote:
Exactly!!!
@ buzzsawmonkey:
I may be a little rusty, but I though India too has always “been”. Wasn’t Pakistan “created” from a part of India? India is ancient too.
I tried to add this video originally to this post but couldn’t get it to fit – Israel, Then & Now. Enjoy.
I also would find it interesting to hear some “what Israel means to me” if anyone feels so inclined.
I really want to go visit Israel. Happy Birthday!
NoThreat2U wrote:
India and Pakistan were both part of the British Empire. Neither were independent countries; both were, at various times, a patchwork of independent or semi-independent principalities and states, and parts of other empires.
For that matter, if we’re going to talk about nations of long standing, it is useful to remember that neither Italy nor Germany were unified into nations until the latter part of the 19th century.
One woman’s journey from Ethiopia to the IDF officer corps
This confidence later brought her to write a letter to then-president Ezer Weizman begging him to arrange her mother’s immigration to Israel.
“I remember when I went to the post office to buy a stamp,” she recalled. “The clerk saw what was written on the envelope and looked at me with pity, as if to say, ‘Why is a girl like me, a naive, foolish girl, writing a letter to the president?’”
“I received an answer from the president’s office within two weeks saying he would help me,” she continued. “A few months later, my mother and my two brothers were in Israel.”
The Israel that Obama could never understand
@ vagabond trader:
that’s the spirit!
1947 British India was divided into the independent states of India and Pakistan. Jawaharlal Nehru became India’s first prime minister. War broke out between India and Pakistan over the territory of Jammu and Kashmir
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
IIRC, the American Nation is the oldest nation under the same system of governance in the world. Others have deeper history, of course, but the Britain of today isn’t the British Empire we rebeled against. France has been through, what, five Republics since we were established? Much of the rest of the modern world are 20th Century creations.
Jerusalem
@ Iron Fist:
Its that Old Testament tough love.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
But Israel is different. I can’t seem to put it into words. Israel was Israel for over 2,009 years. Like Rorschach said above….resurrection. Israel is not a new concept in the Middle East like some try to make it.
Fascinating chronicle of pre independence.
http://www.jpress.org.il/publications/PPost-en.asp
@ WrathofG-d:
Shared it on my facebook
@ NoThreat2U:
I have Jewish relatives whose Jewish family lived in Hebron since they left Spain after the inquisition.
Jews have always lived in Israel, and she has always been waiting for more to come home.
@ NoThreat2U:
Wonderful, now if someone could help me make that video fit here.
@ WrathofG-d:
I guess I am saying that Israel has always “been”. This bull about “creating” it 62 years ago is kukkuk. It was there 2,000 years ago when Jesus was there. It is not new. It annoys me when people act like the world got together and, just to piss someone off, decided to give those uppity Jews a chunk of THEIR land to live on. It’s bullshit.
@ NoThreat2U:
Yeah, and the idjits that go so far as to provide an alternate place… (“why don’t they put Israel in Greenland or someting”) can’t, don’t or won’t ever get it.
@ NoThreat2U:
Yes, the Arab/Muslim false narrative (accepted by their moronic useful idiots) is that “Palestine” was there eternally and the world was unicorns and fluffy bunnies until WW2 when white usurper imperialist Jews came out of nowhere, and were forced randomly upon the most peaceful people in the World – the “Palestinians” – by the White colonist powers as a gift to the Jews for their guilt over Europe’s Holocaust (which might or might not have happened).
Of course, this ignores so much reality that one wouldn’t know where to start. However, it was because of this that I included the link above to the 1929 Hebron Massacre (the last time my family ever lived in Hebron)
@ m:
I have seen that a few times. lol Stupid asses. lol lol
Iron Fist wrote:
Yes. We still think of America as “a young country,” and in some ways it is—but it is still the oldest country to exist under the same form of government, as you say.
Why Israel?
This is why.
And This!
m wrote:
I have even heard some Jews—nonobservant, but Jews nonetheless—say things of that sort.
@ NoThreat2U:
You might enjoy this:
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Surprisingly unsurprising.
@ WrathofG-d:
Re your link about Hebron.
So this asshole wants to kill 70 yeshiva students and if allowed will leave the rest of them alone? My God! “Hello, I am a murderous barbarian, but if you give me permission to kill just 70 students, I will go away”. How else would someone answer that request but with a resounding NO? Good grief.
Iron Fist wrote:
Ludwig? You Keyboard Kommandoing again?
@ NoThreat2U:
What is also interesting about that account is how similar it is to the way things are today. All of the multicultural efforts, the peace gestures, and international involvement has been meaningless. Jews peacefully protest their right to their holy sites, and muslims murder in response.
@ WrathofG-d:
Beautiful. I want to go there someday. Alas, I am but a pauper so I will have to live that dream through videos you post here.
If only Mark Twain could see her now
@ WrathofG-d:
It is SOP for the barbarian hordes. Cause trouble, start murdering innocents, and pillage and loot. SSDD. I noticed that.
@ NoThreat2U:
Visit Israel….you’ll never be the same.
@ WrathofG-d:
It’s open. It’s airy. The water looks so beautiful. If I ever come into big money, I would definitely go there. I want to walk where biblical figures walked. I want to see the ancient tombs and churches. A trip to Israel goes on my bucket list
Hmmm, seems I might have been a day early on this one for the U.S.
It is a damned shame that the palis cannot make in Gaza and such what Israel has made. I guess they prefer being the arab battering ram instead. Jealous little people.
Ezekial 38 + 39
Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
@ NoThreat2U:
Start an Israel fund (or change jar or whatever!)! I have one! Back at the old place there were a few people who were going to get a tour together. Let’s do that here!
@ m:
By the 15 of the month, I am broke. lol I can’t even spare change. lol lol But I may have something coming up. I will have to wait and see.
@ WrathofG-d:
They missed one of the most spectacular things of all; the Bah’ai shrine in Haifa.
@ NoThreat2U:
It’s hard to go there on a shoestring, because lots of things are expensive, including airfare, which will set you back at least $1500. But some careful web surfing will get you reasonable B&Bs (or better yet, Zimmers), and you can live off of bread and cheese and veggies in the stores.
But you have to rent a car. The cars aren’t expensive, but gas is, but the distances aren’t that great. A car gets you out to all the really out-of-the-way places the tour buses won’t take you. And despite what you may have heard, driving isn’t any more aggressive than in say NYC. They lean on their horns a lot, but that’s just what they do.
NoThreat2U wrote:
You could volunteer to work on a Kibbutz. You would still have to dig up the air fare, but living there would be taken care of for the most part. And there would be plenty of time to tour also.
You’ll just have to run the thread again tomorrow, Wrath! I don’t think anyone will mind.
Eh chem…..Jews…come home!
Only in Israel.
Nothing short of a miracle
Or is is Baha’i?
Of course, the better way to get there is to fly into Athens, and then take a slow boat to Haifa.
@ snork:
Yeah I would have to know exactly what I needed.
@ Nevergiveup:
Really? It would be that easy? I might check into that.
@ snork:
Not sure, but for those who might not know what we are talking about:
What the video doesn’t tell you however is why the Bahai Shrine is in Israel at all. The “Bab” is buried in Israel because the Bahai were violently chased out of Persia by the Muslims and Israel took them in.
NoThreat2U wrote:
Well I didn’t say easy, but sure it can be done. And the Buses in Israel are actually quite good, crowded at times, but go most anywhere. And since Homicide Bombings are down, also quite safe. There are organizations you can contact to find info
The TNR EXCHANGE: Trust Fall
What Americans and Israelis are saying about each other–but not to each other.
Dear Jim,
You say that Israel has been caught in amber, even as the rest of the world has changed. Not so: Israel has changed beyond recognition. We’re no longer an ideological, pioneering state but a high-tech society that desperately wants to be part of the globalizing world. And Israelis are willing to pay the territorial price for that admission—provided we can be reassured that a Palestinian state wouldn’t turn into an even worse nightmare than the one we’re caught in now.
In urging Israelis to face reality and accept Palestinian statehood, you’re pushing against an open door. That argument was resolved, at least in theory, 20 years ago, during the first intifada, when a majority of Israelis concluded that the occupation would devastate Israel from within and turn us into a pariah from without.
A majority of Israelis agree that ending the occupation is an existential need—to spare us from growing isolation, from the moral attrition of occupation, from the untenable choice between Israel as a Jewish state and a democratic state.
But that’s only half the equation. You ignore the other half: that a Palestinian state could turn into an existential threat to Israel. Most Israelis are convinced that, given the current state of the Palestinian national movement, an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would lead to missile attacks against the Israeli heartland, including greater Tel Aviv and Ben-Gurion Airport. All it takes is a few “primitive rockets” to be launched every day against Israeli neighborhoods—and for the international community to tie our hands when we try to defend ourselves—for normal life in this country to become impossible.
In order to make your case against Israel, you have to ignore the fact that Israel tried—three times in the last decade—to create a Palestinian state. Palestinian leaders rejected the equivalent of one hundred percent of the West Bank and Gaza, because that deal would have required them to restrict refugee return to a Palestinian state. The Palestinian pre-condition for an Israeli withdrawal is that Israel commit suicide. As a veteran Peace Now activist said to me recently: The Palestinians won’t let us end the occupation.
We’ve tried negotiations and got suicide bombings; we tried unilateral withdrawal without negotiations and got rocket attacks. What would you have us do next?
What’s so depressing about your position, Jim, is that it offers proof that Arab intransigence is winning, that with enough time, the combination of terrorism and denial of Israel’s legitimacy will wear down even friends of Israel like you. And then the Middle East conflict seems to turn into an endless blood feud. Or that stupid journalistic phrase, a cycle of violence. And then what you once knew about the conflict—that at crucial moments Israel has accepted compromise and the Palestinians have rejected it—gets lost in the general weariness.
Snip
@ Nevergiveup:
I’d dare to say that even when homicide bombings were not “down” the buses in general were still safe.
WrathofG-d wrote:
Yes in general your right, but I know many people who did start taking alternate transportation in those troubled times. And anyhow “safe” is a relative term.
bbiab
@ WrathofG-d:
Not to be confused with the “Babs” Streisand, who should be chased out of Israel.
It bears mentioning, I think, that during the height of the last intifada, before the security fence went up, Israel was suffering, in proportion to its overall population, the equivalent of a 9/11 attack every three months or so.
Just to put things in perspective.
@ Guggi:
Great letter, but this part is just silly. (although I acknowledge that it is a common refrain from those who haven’t quite thought it out – and not getting into the misuse of the term “occupation”.)
No matter how many times it is drilled into someones head, this bold statement is not true. Removing Israeli citizens from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza does nothing to effect the percentage of Israelis and thus would have no baring on the democratic or Jews status of Israel.
If you have 100 Jews living as Israeli citizens in Pre-67 Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and you those Jewish citizens living in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza and place all the Jews in Pre-67 Israel only, you still only have 100 Jewish citizens.
Accordingly the percentage of Jewish citizens doesn’t change, and thus it has no baring on Israel being a “democracy” or its “Jewish character”.
@ WrathofG-d:
You can look at all the pictures and watch all the videos all you want, but that place has to be visited to really grasp. It’s like the Taj – photography just doesn’t capture it.
The connection to Haifa is interesting; the grandson of the Bab (Bahá’u'lláh) was exiled to nearby Akko (aka Acre). He has a separate (but smaller) shrine there.
Basically, all of the important Baha’i shrines are in Israel.
WrathofG-d wrote:
Hum, your math is off
@ Nevergiveup:
My only point really was – and as someone who has visited Israel you would know this – that although the bombings and the conflict get all the Western news, although significant they are not a huge bulk of the life that goes on in Israel.
In short, Israel is so much more than the conflict. People live there everyday, every hour, every year, and every moment despite the conflict and are just fine.
@ NoThreat2U:
Pennies & dimes add up!
Here in Tampa, there’s no mention of Israel’s aniversary today. However our local liberal rag, The Tampa Tribune has declared today to be:
National Crackpot Day − April 19
Of course, the Tampa Tribune says: “the Tea Partiers are the CRACKPOTS and David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh are the Tea Partiers favorite martyrs”. If you go there, be sure to read my comment.
WrathofG-d wrote:
I’m not arguing that point, but during the height of the Homicide Bombings, people’s normal routines were altered. Less people did take Bus transport and less people went clubbing at night and security was stepped up at malls and other places of public gatherings.
any one notice??
Has Walter been banned from the swamp?
Have not seen him post of late, but not sluming much any longer.
And today, April 19th on the Gregorian calendar, the first battles of the American Revolution were fought; Lexington & Concord.
@ WrathofG-d:
I don’t think the reference had anything to do with math. It had to do with the international left’s belief that Jewish and democratic are mutually exclusive.
Odd that they never complain about the gazillion “islamic republics”. And as your video in the post mentions, there are a number of officially Christian countries in the world, mostly in uberenlightened Europe.
It’s a dumb argument.
@ Fritz Katz:
Great comments.
That crap passes for “news” and not opinion nowdays… weeeeeeird.
@ taxfreekiller:
I vaguely remember him tangling with one of the nomenklatura a few days ago. He may have made it on to Comrade Chuckles’ airbrush list.
snork wrote:
The argument has to do with ruling over a few million unwilling palestinians and math that results from that.
Hey Wrath you still here? I need to know when Rosh Hashana starts this year real fast?
Nevergiveup wrote:
Ah I just found out
m wrote:
Thanks!
At least they let me comment on their silly story. Hopefully some higher-up editor at the Trib will take notice of how stupid Marty Moore sounds and give the boot.
@ Nevergiveup:
The ideological argument though, is whether Israel should be “Jewish”, and thus violates the civil rights of anyone who isn’t (as you say, almost all Arabs). It’s an odd argument, seeing as Jews have no civil rights at all in any of the Arab countries.
snork wrote:
It’s alittle more complicated than that. If the arabs residents of the West Bank ever get voting rights by virtue of their being in an annexed territory then the concept of both a “Jewish” and a “Democratic” State are at risk.
And it looks like this Jew will be in Norfolk Virginia for Rosh Ha Shana
@ Nevergiveup:
Oceana O club if you can drink.
@ snowcrash:
Forget it, that is Virginia Beach, not Norfolk.
Nevergiveup wrote:
Then you can wear a Norfolk jacket to services, and be quite stylish.
Nevergiveup wrote:
Ya got me thinking, and that usually spells trouble. Remember that ’50s group Sha Na Na? If they were Cantors for the services, would we be celebrating Rosh Ha Sha Na Na?
Finally, A Real White Supremacist Rally And Almost No One Notices
For two years, opponents of Obama’s agenda have been painted by the mainstream media, left-wing blogs and Democratic leadership as racist and extremist white supremacists.
The charges are malicious and false, as documented here dozens of times.
So what happens when there is a real white supremacist, neo-nazi rally? Almost no one notices.
As reported by the LA Times, a neo-nazi rally Saturday in Los Angeles drew a whopping 40 white supremacists and several hundred counter-protesters:
Outside of the local media and a handful of blogs, the event received scarce attention. None of the usual suspects bothered to cover or comment on it. Firedoglake and Huffington Post covered it, but we saw none of the hyperventilated commentary and lecturing that is directed at Tea Parties.
How curious. Tea Party events which are not white supremacist events are met with derision and abuse, while a real white supremacist rally is met mostly with silence.
There is a lesson here. The attacks on the Tea Parties have nothing to do with stamping out white supremacy and everything to do with shaping the political dialogue to stamp out legitimate opposition to Obama administration policies.
snowcrash wrote:
Oh I am sure i can find a place to drink in Norfolk
@ Guggi:
Already have a thread in the queue on that.
Did someone say Sha Na Na?
snork wrote:
Fine
Happy Birthday Israel!
Not to go off topic…but if there is a admin around…I have lost my pass word and need it to be e-mailed to me. Before I am unable to post again.
Thanks …
Lily
Lily wrote:
OK I’ll go for it? So how the hell did you just sign on???
Poison pens point to anti-Israel hate
The first e-mail comes from a frequent writer, typos and all.
“U try to make ‘our’ president a pro muslim, when your ‘Jewish’ nation is the cause of most of our problems. Your PM is nothing more than a terrorist, but u defend him. I told u before, when u were in Israel, stay there.” — Bob De John
The second writer also has grammar and spelling problems and a bellyful of hate. “You and the rest of that jew political group continually licking honey off your nasty tongues, are much more loyal to the country of israel than you are to The United States of America. That is only one reason why most Americans do not like the jew people.” — Joey Dluzak
Here is another voice of darkness. “I so enjoy your rant on Islam and the President. It shows your ignorance and exemplify your dumbfounded fears . . . Cant wait for you to die from old age, maybe cancer, or something worse, like Alzheimer.” — Omar Khalil
The three letters came to me in response to different columns, but the writers share two distinct views. They support President Obama’s hard-line policy toward Israel, and they are anti-Semites.
They hear Obama’s policy as a license, and even a cue, to spew their hate. I am sharing their rants because letters like theirs are increasing as the president grows more forceful toward Israel.
The connection is disturbing. With American-Israeli relations at a low point, anti-Semitism could be reaching a boiling point.
Snip
I lost it after I signed in….
I stayed signed in most the time. So I don’t have to enter my pass word everytime I log on.
But there will be a day I have to resign in normally once or twice a week.
My computer got hit with a very bad virus and I wrote my pass word down before my son erased everything on my computer … that piece of paper is gone….
US troops could withdraw from Afghanistan ahead of 2011 deadline
Mr Gates made the remarks during a visit to a dust-blown training ground in Kabul province where Afghan soldiers come for weeks of training under U.S. and British instruction. British Brigadier Simon Levy told Gates that if Nato countries contribute more trainers, the project to expand the Afghan army will keep pace.
Snip
I wonder if Chuck understands what the word “analog” really means in the real (not analog) English language?
I haven’t been posting much lately….my husband had prostrate cancer and is recovering well. But I do like to post sometimes…:)
@ Nevergiveup:
But that is never going to happen. Its pure myth. There is no reason for it. No one speaks of the non-citizens of Israel in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza becoming citizens, or them getting rights to vote. Its a stupid scare tactic and red herring.
We might as well discuss a terrorist from China becoming Israeli Prime Minister and how that would effect the Democracy or Jewish character of Israel.
@ Lily:
If you log out, there’s a “lost password” option. You don’t need the admins to intervene.
@ Lily:
I will reset the password and you can change it to whatever you want. Check your email.
@ WrathofG-d:
It’s not going to happen for another more basic reason. The “one state solution” isn’t on the table from either side. No point in worrying about the impossible.
Lily wrote:
Sorry to hear that, and glad he is recovering.
You will have to log off. After that there will be a link for a lost password. It will send an email to the addy your nic is associated with and allow you to reset your password.
@ snork:
Oh, well there ya go! Mine stays logged in so I forgot about that! lol
WrathofG-d wrote:
Well I don’t want to fight with you but ultimately something has to be done on the West Bank. It’s not a scare tactic or Red Herring. And the China thing is not analogous since there at not a few million chinese on the West Bank.
@ m:
I got my new password…. thanks!
Lily wrote:
What is it?
/ just kidding
@ song_and_dance_man:
Thanks Song…he is doing very well. I wasn’t on the computer much until his surgery. They did get all the cancer and it hadn’t spread.
He is still recovering from the surgery…very long one.
Thanks again too.
@ Nevergiveup:
Not if the “something” is worse than the status quo. Nobody’s talking about annexation, and nobody’s talking about one state. The wall is an attempt to define a boundary that will, among other things, avoid the demographic problem you’re worried about. But annexation isn’t in the cards, now or in the foreseeable future. They can and will keep on doing what they have been doing for decades.
@ Nevergiveup:
It’s…..oh wait
@ snork:
Those who push forth the scare tactic that an ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza is necessary for any reason deal mostly in unrealistic red herrings. They argue that the expulsion of all Jews (something which itself should be anthema on its face) from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza are necessary to ensure a Jewish majority in Israel so that Israel can remain both a Democracy, and a Jewish State (ie: ensure a Jewish majority).
This argument (as I pointed out above) is hogwash as a transfer of all Jews in Judea, and Samaria (formally Gaza as well) are already considered citizens and thus are counted as such, and the non citizen Arab/Muslims who call themselves “Palestinians” are not (and never will be).
So, moving them from one part of Israel to another does not effect the Jewish majority and thus won’t fix any demographics issues or ensure Democracy or Israel’s Jewish Character.
That argument is just smoke & mirrors to convince the intellectually immature to help the arab/muslims fullfil the first Phase of the PLO Phased Plan, and avoid the really tough questions – like; if you are really concerned about a Jewish majority in pre-1967 Israel what are you proposing to do about the non-Jews living in Pre-1967 now, non-Jewish birthrates, or to otherwise encourage Jewish birthrates/Jewish immigration??
These questions are too hard to ponder for the “democracy” and “Jewish character” whining Jews (usually found on the Zionist left).
So, I have a few questions of my own. Presuming that this mythical expulsion of Jews from outside Pre-1967 really did what the sillies say it would, what do you do when the pre-1967 demographics begin to change and there are predominantly Arab/Muslim non-Jewish neighborhoods where Jewish Israelis are no longer allowed to visit, and those neighborhoods expand? Do you just use the same argument about “too many Arab/Muslims surrounding Jews to protect it”? Then forfeit that neighborhood in the sake of “Jewish character and Democracy? What do you do when the Arab/Muslims out birth those the Jews in Tel Aviv, Yaffo, Haifa, The Kriyot, etc? Forfeit them like one would Hebron, Gaza, and other parts of Judea and Samaria?
@ Lily:
Best wishes for you and hubby. Mine went through it ten years ago. His Doc told him that statistically, he is cured.
@ Lily:
Do you mind if I send your comment to Goddessoftheclassroom so we can add your husband to our prayer list?
@ Nevergiveup:
See 111. It is a irrational scare tactic as it is not, and never will be on the table. It is just as likely as the Chinese analogy.
snork wrote:
No but in many respects Israel still “controls” the lives of all those palestinians on the West Bank. Most Israelis don’t want to have to do that and whether you like it or not the “International” community is a pain in the ass and with someone like Obama in the White House, America’s attitude is no longer a given. I have no simple solution, but to just dismiss the problems that can and will arise is not wise. At this point Yes, they probably can and will do just what they are doing, but that is no answer long term.
@ m:
Oh please do! In thanks and for his energy to come back. He still tires easily. Mark is his name.
WrathofG-d wrote:
Sorry I don’t agree
@ vagabond trader:
Thank you!
@ Nevergiveup:
You have the same dilemma as with Gaza – walk away, and have them attack you, or control them, and have to pay that price.
If there were an easy answer, they would have done it already. And the Gaza fiasco has just shown them why they can’t just walk away.
@ Nevergiveup:
That is a completely different discussion. The discussion is about whether annexation or making the Arab/Muslims of Judea & Samaria citizens of Israel which would effect the demographics of Israel.
@ Nevergiveup:
How can you not agree with facts? Think this through. Tell me how I am wrong.
Tell me what the difference is when you move the same Jews from Judea & Samaria to Tel Aviv. How does that affect demographics when the “palestinian Arabs” aren’t in the equation?
Show me where I am wrong.
@ Lily:
That is a rugged surgery,heavy blood loss is common. Has Mark been checked for anemia?
Happy Birthday, Israel!!!
snork wrote:
No Gaza was different. The security concerns with Gaza are not where as severe as the ones with the West Bank, not was the concentration of Israeli Citizens living in Gaza.
WrathofG-d wrote:
Because you are entirely leaving out millions of palestinians, that is why.
@ vagabond trader:
yeah he is okay there. He is back to work (desk job) but by the end of the week he is bone tired. Boy it was a rugged surgery very long.
His doctor says he is cancer free now … it is all down hill now. Each week is a bit better for him.
Thank the Lord.
@ snork:
Gaza was no different, it was just 1st, next is Judea and Samaria. Then you really have to begin to ask the tough questions regarding Tel Aviv, or Acco, etc., when their “security concerns” become as bad as those in Gaza.
One thing someone who shares NGU’s point of view cannot answer is exactly the question above, they will tell you it is different but cannot show you how. They will tell you that it is necessary, but cannot prove it. These are the same people that would tell you before the 2005 expulsion that leaving Gaza was “necssary”, and would either (a) finally let the Arab/Muslims be seen for what they are to the world or (b) bring calm/peace.
As we all know, they are wrong!
Nevergiveup wrote:
???
@ Lily:
He’ll do great!
Nevergiveup wrote:
They aren’t Israeli citizens, and they never will be. This is why I leave them out. When I worry about the population of California should I include those who live in Canada, Syria, or Guatemala?
The “Palestinian arabs” living in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza do not effect the demographics of Israel. You are bringing in unrelated items and emphasizing them as “necessary”.
@ vagabond trader:
Thanks!
@ WrathofG-d:
A better analogy would be Nazareth. Israel was fortunate that that was a primarily Christian city, because if a bunch of islamists holed up there, it would be a security nightmare. There are a lot of Arab strongholds like that, and leaving them autonomous just isn’t practical, and including them is the only realistic option.
They’re going to have to continue with the fence, finish it, declare borders, and wash their hands. There are no other options. If Jordan wants them back, they can have them. But they won’t, because they’re not crazy.
You guys are talking past each other (as usual). Never seems to think that annexation is inevitable. I don’t. Annexation would be demographic suicide, and everybody knows it. And it really doesn’t matter whether Israel remains “Jewish” or not; if it’s democratic, and the Arabs get the upper hand, it will become the islamic rebublic of Palestan, and cease to be democratic or Jewish.
IOW, if it’s not Jewish (in fact), it won’t long remain democratic (in fact).
@ snork:
I agree, but the major point I wish to get across here today is not about an ultimate resolution to the conflict (I fear it would require a finishing of the population exchange that began many decades ago) but to show the emptiness and ridiculousness to the argument that a judenrein Judea, Samaria, and Gaza is necessary to maintain the Jewish Character or Democracy of Israel.
The “palestinian arabs” only become a demographic issue for Israel if she decides to annex Judea & Samaria, and not couple it with a population exchange. But, and most importantly, this is NOT something they are not discussing – and insofar that it would destroy Israel, never will.
Either way however, none of that discussion even comes close to getting into what happens within 1967 borders the Zionist left loves so much. All of their attention is with the Muslims and their narrative of the necessity of ethnically cleansing Jews from any non-Muslim approved land, which completely ignores the true demographic issues for Israel of what to do with a growing disloyal Arab/muslim population even within the 1967 borders.
If the Zionist Left’s attitude doesn’t change, their loser mentality will again be applied in this dystopian future where cities such as Tel Aviv, Raanana, Haifa, Jaffo, Acco, Cesaria, and the Kriyot are overun by a muslim majority and thus “no longer worth the amount of soldiers being used to protect them” as they argued in Gaza, and now for Judea & Samaria.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/evelyn-gordon/280161
Put the Israel flag up this morning. 5 minutes later my Moselm naighbors shut all thier drapes so they wouldn’t have to see it.
@ snork:
Brilliant!
In other words, Israel has no control over its own fate; its continued existence depends entirely on the goodwill of a nation that would like nothing better than to see it disappear. Moreover, all the Palestinians have to do to secure this outcome is to continue doing exactly what they have done for the past 17 years: say “no” to every peace offer Israel makes. If that is true, Israel really is finished.
…
Thus if Israel is to survive another 62 years, it desperately needs its leaders to relearn the wisdom that guided its founders in 1948, when the demographic situation was much worse: that the purpose of independence is precisely to enable the Jewish people to shape Israel’s fate, rather than being the helpless hostages of a hostile nation. The “demographic threat” cannot destroy Israel. But its leaders’ own folly can.
This is exactly right. By tying their own policy to those who would have them destroyed – including the loser “2-State Solution”, Israel surrenders her independence and ensures her destruction.
Some more info (for the record and such)
Happy Birthday to You, Israel 62 (with Video)
Modern Israel at 62: Tiny Country and Huge Success