It seems there was a close result between Labor and the Coalition. Polls had shown the Progressives (Labor) winning, but the results are very close.
ABC Australia is predicting 73 seats for the opposition coalition, 72 for ruling Labor, one for the Greens and four independents.
PM Julia Gillard vowed that she would “keep fighting”.
Opposition leader Tony Abbott said it was clear Ms Gillard’s Labor had lost its majority and its legitimacy.
The election comes two months after Ms Gillard ousted Kevin Rudd in a controversial leadership challenge.
Read the rest: Australia heads for hung parliament
Hopefully the Conservative coalition pulls this one out and the Tranzi Progressives suffer another defeat.
Update: The GOP has a chance now of picking up a Senate seat in Washington state.
The first KING 5 Senate poll for the 2010 general election shows Republican Dino Rossi is actually ahead of Democratic incumbent Patty Murray, 52% to 45%.
In most polls leading up to this week’s primary election and on primary night, Murray was in the lead. Primary election results placed Murray 13 points ahead of Rossi, but Rossi splitting the Republican vote with Clint Didier who got 12%, and Paul Akers, with 3%.
The new K5 poll of 618 likely voters, conducted by SurveyUSA, is the first look at a Murray-Rossi matchup in November. It suggests that even without an official endorsement from Didier, many o f Didier’s supporters would choose Rossi over Murray. Akers has endorsed Rossi, but Didier is withholding his endorsement at this time.
This is a race to watch and shows the depth of the Democrat’s electoral problems.
Tags: Australian Elections
In Australia, all political options are terrible.
I wish our congress was hung. That would mean they have some balls.
snork wrote:
Our elite are very effeminate.
@ Rodan:
while standing comfortably behind a police state.
OTOH, we do have plenty of dicks in congress. Such as Nancy Pelosi.
Trees or lamp posts ? Hemp or nylon ?
Drink!
No Patty, Osama bin Laden doesn’t build day care centers.
@ snork:
Maybe the drugs are startng to wear off up there…
Mike C. wrote:
How about piano wire?
Clint, don’t be a dick. Nobody likes a sore loser, and a professional athlete should know that better than anyone.
lobo91 wrote:
The primary was Tuesday. This new non-partisan primary has some interesting dynamics, and one of them is that the challenger’s numbers will shoot up after the primary. This is what you’re seeing.
And whether Didier wants to grow up and endorse Rossi or not, he’s out. His supporters are lining up behind Rossi. Time to try on the training pants, Clint.
Alright, which one of you clinging racists hung the Australian parliament? When you are finished, can you hang our congress? KTHNXBAI
Means nothing, the democrat’s have Washington State crooked up as bad as Illinois ask Rossi why Christine Gregoire is the Governor.
<—-- Bang bang bang…. Where the hell is everybody?????
doriangrey wrote:
Getting ready to go to a gun show.
@ doriangrey:
hey DG,
pissed off anybody today?
rain of lead wrote:
It’s still early…
@ lobo91:
ouch!
lobo91 wrote:
Heh heh heh I was going to say that…
@ doriangrey:
Not with them numbers.
Everyone is bushed from the ONT
@ snork:
With numbers like that, King county can’t pull off the cheat all by themselves. Even with help from Spokane, Pierce, Snohomish, and Clark counties, it’ll be damn near impossible to conceal.
And last time, King pretty much stole the election alone.
Australians are wonderful people, but they have created a police state-lite. And it gets worse every year.
pat wrote:
post-democracy
Guggi wrote:
Has anyone gone in there to clean up all the broken glass and smashed furniture?
lobo91 wrote:
No, but I did go in and smack possum on the head a good one…. (Oh shit, I didnt just admit that did I???)
doriangrey wrote:
Oh wait, that was the Breaking news thread not the ONT… Never mind please carry on with your business as usual…
@ Guggi:
yup. You have to be there to appreciate it. Once I was on a bus in Sydney (do not drive in Australia!). Six armed cops boarded it(others guarded the exits), and made everyone show their receipt for boarding. A tiny slip of thin paper that could be hours old and thrown away. Everyone who used a pass, had to prove the pass through an electronic scanner. One poor kid’s did not register properly, but turned out to be legit. And that turned out to be the cause of the hijack and delay. A computer notification of an improper scan drew 2 police cars and a passenger sweep. It was truly creepy. And that is but one tale of what Aussies meekly put up with on a daily basis.
lobo91 wrote:
Not me
I’ve added some.
@ Guggi:
Maybe I should submit a bid for reconstruction…
lobo91 wrote:
Do what you have to do
but I’m not “Frau Putz” (= Putzfrau = charwoman, but today it is no longer appropriate to say “Putzfrau” now we say “Reingungsfachkraft” --> pc-language)
@ doriangrey:
{doriangrey}
@ Guggi:
Looking at the damage, I feel confident that I can fix everything up for, say, $3.2 billion.
Call in the next 10 minutes, and we’ll double your order!
goddessoftheclassroom wrote:
Hey Beautiful…. {{Goddess}}
lobo91 wrote:
<—- Slips in bid for $3.01 billion…
@ doriangrey:
I’ll do it for 50 brinks and a round in the ring with Ludwig.
lobo91 wrote:
I’m not Obama and I’ve no access to Americans taxe-payers money
Put up a competent bid of 9.7 billion.
/Arranges for Guggi’s family to live large at 2.4 billion if Guggi agrees.
@ Mike C.:
+1
That is funny, I don’t care who you are!
@ goddessoftheclassroom:
{goddessoftheclassroom}
Good Middle-of-the-afternoon, Teacher!
If Australia does not do as we say it should we can bomb the shit out of them and invade them.
yep.
Australia does not have the right to govern themselves. We should invade and install a puppet government. It worked in Iraq, in Afghanistan and it will work in Iran.
@ Possum:
Damn, dude, I figured you’d be sobered up by now. Mainlining?
bedbugs revert to muslim
Oh, I see. Possum was huffing peyote mushrooms.
@ waldensianspirit:
They should be exterminated!
(Oh, noes! Bedbug Genocide!
)
Iron Fist wrote:
Is that supposed to be amusing?
Is that how you debate with people that do not hold your point of veiw?
Possum wrote:
Sure, but do we want to?
Possum wrote:
/fixed it
waldensianspirit wrote:
Thanks, but I prefer to live of my own money. I’m very old-fashioned. Not très chic nowadays
With a little ephedrine, just for extra buzz.
snork wrote:
Amuszing.
Possum wrote:
Sorry Possum, you are not debating, you are asserting wishful thinking which is not backed up by logic or fact.
I’m outta here for today. Can’t stand the malodor of a certain possum.
Guggi wrote:
Fuck you too.
I am not staying long.
doriangrey wrote:
Well, unlike Afghanistan, they do have hot women…and good beer…and they speak English (more or less)…
Possum wrote:
Why become belligerent? If you think you have a genuine valid argument, then make it. Just asserting that nations have rights isn’t a valid argument.
lobo91 wrote:
Location location location… If ya know what I mean…
doriangrey wrote:
Why bother?
I am off to fundraise for the park51 mosque and then later today I am flying to Iran to help them enrich Uranium.
See you in a few weeks.
@ doriangrey:
I’ve really felt kind of ripped off during my military career.
All the wars we’ve had since I’ve been in have been in sorry-ass places with no alcohol and women running around in hefty bags…
//
In case anyone was still deluding themselves about Iran’s nuclear program, they are keeping up their enriching uranium:
Al;l jokes aside, the uranium production is solely for the manufacture of fission weapons. It is foolish to pretend otherwise. Iran’s nuclear program is a weapons program. Can we at least be honest about that? If you want Iran to have nuclear weapons, have the balls to say so. It would be refreshing, if out of character, to see such honesty from the Obama Administration.
Possum wrote:
Well have fun…
lobo91 wrote:
Well than you just have to lobby your senator or congressman to have a war in a more desirable location. Personally ya got to think about that a bit if you ask me, cause any location that is desirable before a war starts usually isn’t desirable by the conclusion of that conflict.
Possum wrote:
Don’t huff too much UF6. Stuff’s nasty.
Possum wrote:
Hey Possum for awhile there I thought I was at Huggington post or Bloated Bovine smear blog. By the way do you think GWB was able to stash enough oil from Iraq before he left the oval office?
@ Iron Fist:
How reassuring…
//
Prolly good for bedbugs, though.
@ lobo91:
The foot prints they leave ain’t women prints.
Iron Fist wrote:
Not at 20%, they don’t.
@ doriangrey:
Given the losers I have for Senators, I’m pretty sure the only place they’d want to invade is Arizona…
If a ‘hung’ congress meant less government takeover of our lives, I’d be all for it.
BBL
@ lobo91:
Yeah. The Obama Administration apparently isn’t worried:
Are you not reassured?
This is nuts, and just double-talk. Everyone knows what is going on here. Saying Iran has a right to nuclear weapons is taking the Second Amendment a bit farther than I am willing to go (though if that is cool with the Administration, why can’t I have the 12″ barreled LWRC M6A2 I want (in full-auto, no less)?).
@ Iron Fist:
Oh, the Russians and the IAEA are going to be watching it.
That’s much better…
//
@ Iron Fist:
Just gimme a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.
savage wrote:
Well, I’m on my way to a gun show now.
I’ll see if i can find one for you…
BBL
@ Iron Fist:
Iran has wanted an “Islamic’ bomb since the Revolution.
My guess is that Obama believes that they should have it.
@ Iron Fist:
Why would they worry? What the h-ll, it’s just someone new for Obama to bow to.
@ savage:
Hey, man, if the Mad Mullahs can have their toys, why not? First Mexican Meth Dealers can have machineguns, now Iranian mullahs can have nukes. It makes my wants and needs seem downright tame. Obama should try doing something right and repeal all the unconstitutional gun control laws. Doing something right would be new and different for him. He might find he enjoys it…
Hung parliaments aren’t as fun as people might thing. Ours in the UK is technically hung. We have a coalition that formed itself in spite of the wishes of the people and which has no mandate, but which is carrying on regardless. Usually, when you have a hung parliament, you have madness and demagoguery and then another election in six months or a year.
I just hope ours comes along sooner rather than later. The cleggerons are carrying on all the policies that have destroyed this country and they are more than happy to carry on subsuming us into the EU.
I can’t afford to leave, otherwise I’d be off. I never said that before but I’m saying it now; I don’t want to live here any more. In lieu I’m hoarding food and making sure I have some of the necessities for when the power cuts start. And they will start. We’re due a few power stations shutting down soon as they reach the end of their operational life and there’s nothing being built to replace them except bird choppers.
snork wrote:
Yup, reactor grade enrichment is only 3 to 4 percent, where as weapons grade is 20%+. what most people don’t understand though is that achieving the first 10 percent is the most difficult part of the enrichment process.
Once you have achieved the capacity for the first 10 percent further enrichment is not a linear progression.
@ RIX:
Yeah, that’s my take on it too. Obama’s doing all kinds of strange things. Wait until you get a load of the thread I have coming up (they haven’t scheduled it yet, so I don’t know when, but it’s a doozy)
lobo91 wrote:
Damn, I keep hoping someone will invade California and save us from our local politicians.
@ archonix:
A hung congress would be lots of fun.We haven’t had a good necktie party replete with dangling scoundrels in years.
All kidding aside,sorry to hear things are so dire in the UK. Dang,let this be a lesson here in the US.
@ archonix:
Wow, man, I feel for you. Things can get so much worse when you are trapped on an Island ran by madmen with a huge Mohammedan population and no (legal) guns. If SHTF here, I can run to the mountains. Things suck worse in the big cities. I wouldn’t live in one of our big cities for a million dollars a year.
vagabond trader wrote:
Cough cough, whose kidding? Politicians, Pennsylvania Ave, lamp posts, winning combination…
Iron Fist wrote:
Ding ding ding… and we have a winnar….
@ doriangrey:
I don’t want to invade anyone. I just want to stop us from being invaded. By the Muzz and by the Mexicans. Where I live we have both.
@ Iron Fist:
You should be able to legally posess all the weaponry you desire. After all,you have not threatened anyone and you do have a wedding coming up.
@ doriangrey:
ssshhhhh……
Iron Fist wrote:
So, does this mean you will not be coming to California’s rescue?
@ vagabond trader:
My lovely bride would shit if I showed up armed at the wedding
We’ve hung my spear on the wall in the great room, and are trying to work my swords into the decor. She won’t let me put up my big Harley Davidson plate, though. Too biker bar. Wah. 
Has possum passed out yet?
Arab Wedding And Guns. The Mix:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=053_1229002851
Muslim Love
@ doriangrey:
Wish y’all Vaya con Dios if y’all could be enticed to seceede…
Anyone volunteer to take down the tree out back? Didn’t think so. Chain saw time.
MrPaulRevere wrote:
No, he just went off to help raise money for the park51 mosque and then help Iran enrich uranium. I think he’s mad at us cause we haven’t invaded Australia yet. I’m not sure why he wants to invade Australia, but it probably has something to do with Koala bears…
@ doriangrey:
Ummm no. Its da jooos. It is all about da jooos.
doriangrey wrote:
Other way around. It gets harder as it gets more concentrated. What I suspect is that they’re stockpiling 20%, because after they stockpile enough of it, they’ll repipe the train to do another run up to maybe 40, and then shut down and repipe and work their way to 90. This way it’ll take them a lot longer to get there, but they don’t need anywhere near as many centrifuges.
I don’t believe that they have 3000 centrifuges; I doubt that they have 300. But they do seem to have time on their side, and with enough time, 300 will do it.
Iron Fist wrote:
California cant secede, who will our politicians get to bribe them to do stuff then?
@ doriangrey:
Possum’s into bears?
(Sorry, I couldn’t resist. WTF happened to dude?)
@ doriangrey:
The ONT was surreal, I could not believe the utter rubbish I saw on my monitor.
The coast is clear again ?
@ snork:
No one is going to stop them, so they will inevitably get the weapons they want. Oh, they won’t have W-88s, but it will be sufficient to blow up Tel Aviv and such. We are not choosing peace. We are buying a temporary hudna for the price of a nuclear war down the road. I don’t see anything but wishful thinking being deployed to stop it.
Israel rated 8th happiest nation
I’m sure the ranking of Iran will improve once they all have electricity from those nukes.
doriangrey wrote:
both, possums and koala bears are marsupials……
Possum wrote:
Promise?
Guggi wrote:
I hope so.
MrPaulRevere wrote:
The stupidity was running rampant.
Actually, Dorian’s right in terms of mass rather than concentration. If you start out with 400 pounds of raw U, that’s 397 pounds of 238 and 3 pounds of 235. If you double the amount of 235, you have to take 200 lb of 238 off the table. That’s a lot more difficult than the next doubling.
I fucked up.
@ Speranza:
Posters who have a problem with Israel should stand up and just say it instead of hiding behind specious arguements a 12 year old would be ashamed of.
@ Speranza:
I really don’t like getting personal like I did with possum, so I have a tinge of regret for that, but I had to call it like I saw it…
vagabond trader wrote:
Well said, and I agree 1000%.
vagabond trader wrote:
in vino veritas
snork wrote:
Sorry, you are mistaken. I was a Health Physic’s Technician I am familiar with the enrichment process. It actually gets easier as the process reaches higher concentration levels.
Think of it like shaking sand through a screen, once the larger particles are shaken out of the mix the smaller particles practically separate themselves.
Once the uranium is converted to uranium hexafluoride the u238 and u235 molecules are separable by electrical charge. Electrically charging the gas and spinning it in a centrifuge creates a condition where the molecules act like oppositely charged magnets, the more one molecule becomes concentrated the greater it’s ability to repel the other molecule becomes. Maxwell’s equations dictate exactly how this works, but are rather complicated to explain.
vagabond trader wrote:
He is a punk ass drunk and I have told one of the administrators here who thinks he is amusing that he is as funny as a tooth ache or a case of the clap.
MrPaulRevere wrote:
Nothing to apologize for. He derailed the ONT and tried to derail this one. He should go away for good or just tgo back to LGF.
@ Speranza:
The reason you will never ever see me on the ONT.
vagabond trader wrote:
I rarely ever go there. Some (not all) tend to leave their brains at the door.
Speranza wrote:
The term agent provocateur comes to mind.
@ Speranza:
When said poster told Eliana/Jews to get over the Holocaust that was it for me.
Has anyone been following M&W 2010?
I wonder if our friends down under are tracking this.
Oh -- hey everyone.
Speranza wrote:
Not really, he is amusing when not on certain subjects. Like most Europeans he doesn’t actually understand where or how nations derive their right of sovereignty, which is to say he has been taught Marxist ideology on national sovereignty but doesn’t realize it and thus doesn’t understand the fallacy of his thinking.
Oh and yes for the record I like possum and think he is an ok dude, for the most part.
@ doriangrey:
Beat you ^^^ 112
@ vagabond trader:
Wow! I guess I missed that. That is crass. Worse than crass, but that is as close a word as I can come up with. Wow.
Speranza wrote:
Who? I’m late to the thread.
Guggi wrote:
I don’t think so. Not subtle enough.
@ Iron Fist:
Yup.I almost took a permanent powder over that one and was pretty disappointed not much was said on it.
@ Voltaires Crack:
I have been tracking that carefully. The Warmists are in delusional denial. I warned CJ that the silly book he read was deeply flawed and was written by a crackpot.
snork wrote:
Yea, I saw that, but not of course until after I had hit submit. Oh well, I guess I should learn to think and type faster…
Speranza wrote:
Is this typical behavior? I’m seldom on the o.n. thread.
I got the feeling it was baiting people to see who might flip like dork foul and try to ‘understand’ it’s point of view, if you could call that angle a point of view. Defending the right of the crazy mullahs to nuke up is ridiculous.
@ Voltaires Crack:
I guess you missed that our wonderful Sec State blamed the floods in Pakistan on Global Warming. Damn, but I miss the Bush Administration. I know, topic for the next thread
@ vagabond trader:
It wasn’t noticed> I know I didn’t know about it. If that’s his attitude I’d just as soon he went and stayed gone, but that’s not my call to make.
vagabond trader wrote:
How rude. And crass.
The floods in Pakistan are attributable to a wetter than average monsoon and intense deforestation and destruction of watersheds.
vagabond trader wrote:
He -- did -- what ? Do you have a link ?
@ pat:
Hey, I report, you decide
pat wrote:
Fortunately the warmists are losing. Chuckholz is a buy-high/sell-low kind of guy so it’s no surprise he’s on the wrong side of this.
IPCC is already starting to change their agenda. Fortunately, Johnsontown has a resident ‘scientist’ to let them know they are on the right side of things. No change in Johnsontown, other than traffic going down.
I remain hopeful.
@ Guggi:
Funny,I wrote down the date,thread and comment number. It is gone. How interesting.
pat wrote:
Add corruption to it. The government money for flood prevention vanished in the pockets of the great land owners and corrupt public officials.
chickadee wrote:
See, that’s the problem. Possum wasn’t so much defending the concept that Muslims have the right to build nuke’s as he was defending the rights of sovereign nations to engage in equal behaviors.
Which is to say that if one nation can build nuclear power or weapons than all nations have that equal right. Or more precisely, no single sovereign nation has the right to dictate what action another sovereign nation will or will not take.
His argument fails with the assumption that all sovereign nations are equal and therefore recipients of equal rights. Furthermore that sovereign nations derive their rights from the same place as individuals and are subject to the same moral and ethical constraints as individuals.
Reality is simply that they are not.
Iron Fist wrote:
Cankles has to do what she must. I don’t hold her personally responsible. It’s a paid job.
Once they are voted out, they will have to deal with the fact that the majority of folks perceive them as nuts. She’s got her money, though, so she’ll be ok.
@ Voltaires Crack:
It is frightening to realize how close the nutjobs came to shutting down the whole US economy over the Global Warming Hoax. Think abot where thing would be (on so many fronts) if Al Gore had succeeded in his attempt to steal the 2000 election. We would be so hosed.
vagabond trader wrote:
hmmmm…not a good sign here….
@ Guggi:
Sorry,wrong date. June 13 ONT comment 169.
Iron Fist wrote:
No doubt it could have easily gone the other way, and thankfully it didn’t.
Our job, more than posting on discussion forums, is to get people out to vote with such force that the socialist experiment is forestalled until the next generation.
Ace had a wonderful post on this, which I commend all to read: http://minx.cc/?post=304848
Now, for this crowd it’s just common sense. The real work is to get that muddled middle out there and voting. If one looks at the poll numbers, there has to be many Obama-voter out there with buyers remorse.
We need to help get them out there to vote. That’s where my energy is concentrating over the next two months. Hope everyone tries to do the same.
doriangrey wrote:
iran is a signatory to the npt. they do not have the right to build nuke weapons as they signed those away many years ago. they do have a right to peaceful atomic power.
yes, i know that they will make bombs from the peaceful atomic efforts, so dont bother arguing with me there.
@ doriangrey:
No, his argument fails because the Iran has signed and ratified (on her free will) the “Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons”. With the signature of the treaty the Iran lost her free right of…(fill in whatsoever possum ranted). The problems started when the Iran failed on article II and III of the treaty. The Iran was free to leave the treaty with all consequences but stayed and wanted it to have both ways: to stay in the treaty AND disrespect the treaty.
vagabond trader wrote:
Thank you vagabon trader !
@ Voltaires Crack:
100%. We have to take the House in November. The Senate as well would be nice, but we are screwed if we don’t get the House. If we don’t, the MFM will spin it as the greatest mandate in the History of the World. You can count on that.
@ Guggi:
yeah…like i was saying.
‘cept you have the details.
Rodan, you should have scheduled this one for when Aussie Infidel and I are around for it!
As far as invading Australia, well, Possums abound in my neighborhood and the sidewalks are full of their droppings. Never thought they’d get into my computer as well.
Possum, first time funny, second time sad, third time pathetic.
coldwarrior wrote:
I explained it already in the ONT
but no one will listen to me 
possum = spacejesus
Guggi wrote:
what iran did there is called ‘haggling’ in the muslim bazzars
@ Lost:
perfect !
Lost wrote:
Can you point me to the post where the s hit the f?
Guggi wrote:
you are right on this one, and thats how i see the issue…npt.
@ Voltaires Crack:
You’ll have to skim the ONT.
coldwarrior wrote:
The blue print for Iran is North-Korea and you know whose fault this has been.
Most people do not realize that Persia, the Punjab, and the Afghan Mountains (formerly the Pushtan) were forested a mere 1,000 years ago. Densly forested. The desertification coincides with the spread of Islam, as it does in India proper.Locusts.
@ Guggi:
is the bushehr reactor a lwbr or is it a standard commercial russian style reactor?
Voltaires Crack wrote:
it began in last nights overnight thread, gained steam in the breaking news thread.
Regarding possum, I don’t think he’s anything other than who he is. I can understand his position (I don’t agree with it, but I understand it) and the reasoning behind it is fairly simple: he wants consistency.
The problem with demanding consistency on this position is that, when you reach a national level, you can’t adopt a single position that applies equally to all nations. If the uS had adopted the same position to the soviets as it had adopted to the UK, the world would be a smoking cinder by now. The USSR had to be treated differently because of what it stood for and what it aimed to achieve. Iran is the same. Possum just can’t seem to grasp that and his arguments seem to be based on the assumption that we have to adopt a single position towards every nation regardless of their intentions.
You wouldn’t treat a crackhead the same as a close friend, nor should a belligerent nation be treated the same as a close ally.
So, I’ll say, all the backbiting and insults (from both sides) are unnecessary. Accusing him of anything like being a moby or agent provocateur or anything like that is going against Occam’s razor: that the simplest explanation is probably correct. And the simplest explanation is that he’s trying to create a framework of understanding without taking all the facts in to account.
possum=spacejesus
archonix wrote:
bingo.
@ archonix:
Perhaps.
After watching it unfold and putting it together with what he has said before, I don’t think it’s as simple as that.
@ coldwarrior:
Ummm. No.
Where’s my post?
spacejesus = possum
possum equals spacejesus
vagabond trader wrote:
well, then we disagree.
@ waldensianspirit:
what happened? lemme go look
Tried to added an observation that possum = spacejesus
spacejesus test
test
hmmm, can’t mention jesus in space
@ waldensianspirit:
@ waldensianspirit:
@ waldensianspirit:
wrong x4
not only do we have the ips of both in question, we know some things about possum…he aint sj
possum is it
waldensianspirit wrote:
sj gets a spam filter…dunno why.
@ coldwarrior:
lol
archonix wrote:
Your assessment is quite possibly true, although I think you are being generous with the behavioral nonsense surrounding the discussion. I’ve spent many pleasant, if not delightful hours on the ONT (technically a variety of the format last night though, and I didn’t come in until morning). The respect that people show the forum and one another is essential to the comraderie. There have been differences of opinion before and it didn’t result in caca being flung at the walls. Treat people well here and you will be treated well. That’s Occam’s razor in action.
@ coldwarrior:
@ Guggi:
You and Coldwarrior are both absolutely correct, Iran did surrender it’s right to nuclear weapons when it signed the NPT. That however had nothing to do with Possums argument. Possums argument wasn’t about Iran’s right to nuclear weapons, it was about the United States and other nuclear powers to tell other nations do as we say not as we do.
Possum clearly subscribes to the Marxist/socialist view of equality of nations known as globalization. Under this fallacious notion all sovereign nation have a equal voice and equal rights. This is the underlying ideology of the United Nations and the League of Nations that preceded it.
Possum appears to advocate Iranian rights to nuclear weapons not because he wants Iran to posses nuclear weapons, but because he believes he can apply the moral equivalency argument to sovereign nations as well as individuals.
His argument clearly isn’t to defend Iran’s decision to acquire nuclear weapons technology, but to decry America and Israel for possessing nuclear weapons.
This is why I never bothered to bring Iran’s signature of the NPT up, because in possums actual argument it plays no role. The fact that Iran signed the NPT is irrelevant to his argument that those who have nuclear weapons should not decide who may develop nuclear weapons.
coldwarrior wrote:
Light Water Reactors and 19 more are planned. Problem: although Iran is bound on the NNPT she did not ratify two additional protocols to the International Atomic Energy Agency’s (IAEA) Program 93 + 2, which was designed to prevent states from developing nuclear weapons covertly. But the Iran is bound on article II and III of the NNPT.
article II and III (pddf-file)
ARTICLE II
Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to receive the transfer from any transferor whatsoever of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices or of control over such weapons or explosive devices directly, or indirectly; not to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices; and not to seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive
devices.
ARTICLE III
1. Each Non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes to accept safeguards, as set forth in an agreement to be negotiated and concluded with the International Atomic Energy Agency in accordance with the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency and the
Agency’s safeguards system, for the exclusive purpose of verification of the fulfilment of its obligations assumed under this Treaty with a view to preventing diversion of nuclear energy from peaceful uses to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. Procedures for the
safeguards required by this Article shall be followed with respect to source or special fissionable material whether it is being produced, processed or used in any principal nuclear facility or is outside any such facility. The safeguards required by this Article shall be applied on all source or special fissionable material in all peaceful nuclear activities within the territory of such State, under its jurisdiction, or carried out under its control anywhere.
@ doriangrey:
iran signed the npt, the west let her shit on the treaty with just a few sanctions.
the situation now, and i dant care about possum’s position, is that the npt no longer is a valid treaty if it cant be enforced. we got bigger problems coming down the pike…the saudis will want nukes to counter iran…
@ yenta-fada:
It’s a given, he was an arsehole. I’m just trying to get across the idea that arseholish behaviour doesn’t necessarily indicate malice or subversion. Some people are just arseholes.
@ Guggi:
then the fuel for nukes is ready at the beginning of the first refueling cycle…they aint nuke weapons yet, but the bread is in the oven.
t-bones going on the grill…
bbl
coldwarrior wrote:
Possums position is the typical anti-nuke position, I used to run into it all the time when I worked at San Onofre. It is a emotional argument, not a logical or reasoned one.
You are utterly correct, treaties like the NPT are only as valuable as they are enforceable. If the treaty is unenforceable then no nation that has signed it is bound by it. Iran is opening a can of worms the likes of which the world has never confronted.
coldwarrior wrote:
Exactly. We’ve let the Norks piss on the world for three Administrations now, and they just keep getting worse. Now we are going to (at best) play the same farce with Iran. Why should any other nation abide by, really, any other treaty? What real threat does the UN or International Community have? Israel should be taking notes. If we are going to let the Norks sink ships, why shouldn’t the Israelis start sinking ships that try to run their blockade? Maybe it is time we got rid of the UN, and quit paying for the farce.
@ archonix:
You see his current avatar?
The King of Iraq returns from 3 year exile in Iran.
@ doriangrey:
Sorry to disagree with you:
The principle that “all sovereign nation have a equal voice and equal rights” started with the Peace of Westphalia 1648.
This is the underlying problem of the United Nations. A nation like Zimbabwe is equal to a nation like e.g. Switzerland but only in the plenum which is powerless. Inside the regime of the UN there is another regime: the Security Council and there are not all nation equal. But this isn’t helpful either because it only copies the power blocs of the real existent world into it. Therefore I argue the UN is a useless institution.
He has no problems with the nuclear weapons of Russia, China, Pakistan, India, France, GB ? If he prefers a world without nuclear weapons why did he single out the USA and Israel with all the blabble about “all nation have the same right” ? If we don’t want fall back to a world of Hobbes’ Leviathan we have to govern the system of nation in form of treaties and we have to respect them. Period. (No offense to you).
@ Iron Fist:
exactly.
i am very happy with possum’s defense of his position, right or wrong (personal attacks against both sides not withstanding)
this gave us an opportunity to expand our view and argue for and against some very academic positions.
this place is not a echo chamber, there will be disagreement.
@ coldwarrior:
It wasn’t especially helpful when O. forclosed the military option, was it ?
@ coldwarrior:
It’s not what you say, but how you say it. His rantings about Israel are disgusting and I’m done with him after I’ve seen what he answered Eliana.
vagabond trader wrote:
He actually said that? Jeezus Louizas I did not know that.
Guggi wrote:
Once he did that Iran had no reason what so ever to take him seriously. God only knows the rest of the world does not -- only aging Norwegians peace Peace prize members who vote on these thing think he is a player on the world stage.
coldwarrior wrote:
Sory he crossed the line and acted like an ass.
Guggi wrote:
Hey, I agree with you and disagree with Cold Warrior & Archonix on the way that possum trashes the place. However, unlike possum, do I feel the need to swear at and demean people I disagree with. That’s the difference between diplomacy and defecating on the carpet. Cause and effect is a bitch. Karma.
@ yenta-fada:
Oops. Silly. PIMF. To clarify, I do NOT feel the need to swear at and disrespect the people I disagree with. D’oh.
Speranza wrote:
did i or did i not say “(personal attacks against both sides not withstanding)” that includes swearing at peeps and whatever.
ok, fine, lets make this place an in line echo chamber where everyone stays in line and never swears and never offends anyone at any time.
lets break out the banning stick!
coldwarrior wrote:
Spacejesus, Sarahlover and Champion621 beg to differ.
@ coldwarrior:
Dare to do it !
coldwarrior wrote:
Really? Spacejesus, Champion621,and Sarahlover beg to differ.
coldwarrior wrote:
Spacejesus, Srahlover and Champio621 beg to differ
Guggi wrote:
Quite concur
Guggi wrote:
not unless it gets very bad.
instead of banning, this tough joint should enjoy a good bar fight.
think and debate, make your opponent swear and get ad hominem..then u win.
this isnt lgf, we dont ban unless there is a staggeringly great reason. possum did not even come close to that level.
coldwarrior wrote:
Spacejesus, Sarahlover and Champion61 might disagree with you.
Speranza wrote:
no
Spacejesus,Champion621 and Sarahlover were all banned.
My freaking comments on this thread are not showing up.
@ Speranza:
hold on…lemme look.
Spacejesus, Sarahlover,and Champion621 might dissent. They were no more obnoxious then the Rodent.
Speranza wrote:
and if u offend me then i ban you, ok?
those three went over the line on many occasions.
Thanks for retrieving my repeated comments. Enough talk about that punk ass. Off to another thread.
coldwarrior wrote:
wait, ya know what.
u decide who gets banned, speranza.
enjoy.
get ready for the damn emails
coldwarrior wrote:
You ban me then you are going to have a major problem on this blog in the quantity and quality of threads.
Off to see the world.
Speranza wrote:
i dont ban..see…unless its really bloody neccessary.
by bringing up the last THREE the only THREE in the history of this blog, you asked for a smart assed comment.
Speranza wrote:
way to cherry pick my comment.
that is not what i meant.
coldwarrior wrote:
This should be a preserved motto!
waldensianspirit wrote:
thank you.
coldwarrior wrote:
Well here’s a smart ass reply to your smart ass comment -- I quit. Maybe you can get Possum to scour the Internet and post some threads for you.
Speranza wrote:
again, you cherry picked my comment.
you missed this part:
i dont ban..see…unless its really bloody neccessary.
quit being so thin skinned.
Speranza wrote:
{{{Speranza}}} Me thinks this is a big misunderstanding. Please, cool down (big hug) we need you
Guggi wrote:
it prolly is a misunderstanding, and it is a great loss for the blog.
it makes me sad.
and i do apologize if the misunderstanding was on my end.
Oh man…I for one enjoyed your threads and commentary Speranza…
@ Guggi:
I agree. I knew last nights thread would have major repercussions which is why I backed out after a while.
@ coldwarrior:
not very lady-like to say but I could kick the sh*t out of possum
(now all my reputation disappears…..bye, bye
)
Guggi wrote:
and thats fine, we are not a debating society here. more like a bar that gets a little rowdy.
Relax, my self imposed exile last until I finished watching Valkyrie at 11:00 PM.