The fall of Rome is a subject that historians have debated ad nausem. I always felt that the question should be, why did Rome survive for so many centuries? Actually the first sack of Rome was by the Gauls in 387 BC – however Rome was on mighty empire then.
key quote – “The moment the Roman Emperor did not pay any more they changed sides and sacked the town”
by David Willey
The first sack of Rome helped hasten the end of the empire
Tuesday marks the 1,600th anniversary of one of the turning points of European history – the first sack of Rome by an army of Visigoths, northern European barbarian tribesmen, led by a general called Alaric.
It was the first time in the 800-year history of the Roman Empire that the city had been successfully invaded. The event had reverberations around the Mediterranean.
Jerome, an early Christian Church Father, in a letter to a friend from Bethlehem – where he happened to be living – wrote that he burst into tears upon hearing the news.
“My voice sticks in my throat, and, as I dictate, sobs choke me. The city which had taken the whole world was itself taken,” he said.
Although Alaric was a Christian ransacking a Christian city, there was an ominous feeling that the world structure built by pagan Rome was disintegrating.
The Roman Empire survived for a few more decades, and later other armies sacked the city again, but this was the date which marked the beginning of the end of Rome’s grandeur.
Centuries later, the city which had at the height of its power boasted a population of more than a million people, was reduced to a lawless, ruined village of no more than 30,000 residents.
Marching in unopposed
Pagans claimed that Christians had destroyed the greatest human achievement ever contrived.
And Christians themselves, who had boasted that they had saved whatever was good in ancient civilisation, lifting it to new heights, suffered a crisis of confidence.
Although the now-Christian Roman Empire was divided between an Emperor of the West, ruling with his court from the city of Ravenna in Northern Italy and a rival Emperor of the East, ruling from Constantinople, there was a feeling that there had been a breakdown at the centre of things, in fabled Rome.
Historians and archaeologists from Germany, Switzerland, Britain and the United States specialising in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire have decided to meet in Rome in October and November to pool their latest research about this first Sack of Rome.
One of the organisers of the conference is Philipp Von Rummel of the German Archaeological Centre in Rome.
I asked him if 24 August 410 might be considered the 9/11 of the ancient world.
“Probably even more so,” he replied. “I don’t know if people will still be talking about 9/11 in 2,000 years time, but the events of that August day still influence our contemporary view of history.”
Who exactly were the Visigoths, the barbarians from the North who marched unopposed into Rome?
Mr Von Rummel says the latest research reveals a very different picture from that held as recently as 50 years ago.
“Today we know the group consisted of different people, it was mainly an army with a successful leader. People joined this group inside the Roman Empire. They sacked a lot of towns but they acted in different ways, they also were a sometime partner of the Romans,” he said.
“The moment the Roman emperor did not pay any more they changed sides and sacked the town just to tell the emperor: ‘You should pay us’.”
Looting and pillaging
I went to look for evidence at the northern walls of Rome, still almost intact for long stretches after nearly two millennia.
There is a gap marking the site of the former Salarian Gate just across the road from a modern department store. Alaric’s army took the Via Salaria – the so-called salt road – linking the city to the Adriatic Sea.
When the city gates were opened by slaves, Alaric’s ragtag army rushed inside to loot and pillage. The sack lasted for only three days, after which Alaric withdrew and marched south to set sail for North Africa, an important and wealthy Roman province.
Read the rest 24 August 410: the date it all went wrong for Rome?
Coldwarrior added: here is a video of Prof Eugen Weber from last Saturday’s Lecture series describing the collapse of the Western Roman Empire…as background to this post.
I wonder when the Mohammedans will sack New York?
Dude seriously, what’s with the picture? If I wanted to see a bunch of gay propaganda, I’d have gone to Hotair!
/JUST kidding
There are many similarities between the Sacking of Rome, and when the Lakers or Pistons win the NBA championship
Iron Fist wrote:
They’ll do that the moment they can start selling this there.
@ Macker:
Dude, you’re going to Hell for that one, you know that, right? Straight to hell, disrespecting the Koran like that. Don’t you know a Koran makes a perfectly good shotgun target?
@ Iron Fist:
ROFLMAIAO! Or should I put Bloomberg’s face there?
@ Macker:
Bloomberg would be appropriate. I heard he was having a big Iftar dinner, and Daisy Chain was invited. How lovely. I wonder how much geld changed hands to win his unrelenting support of “Freedom of Religion”?
for thos of you that missed it:
saturday’s lecture on this subject
Iron Fist wrote:
In a stealthy way they already are.
Iron Fist wrote:
Bloomberg is too stupid to realize that as a Jew they would not hesitate to saw his head off.
Doppelganger wrote:
Detroit has been sacked many times over.
@ Speranza:
hey, if yinz want, yinz can add a link at the bottom of your post to the saturday lecture…they go together perfectly.
Speranza wrote:
Detroit is in a constant state of sackage.
@ coldwarrior:
i don’t know how to do it but you can
@ Speranza:
yeah, alright…
@ Iron Fist:
@ Macker:
OK this view of history is the North European version. Let me give you all the Latin view.
The Visigoths get a bad rep, they were not barbarians. They had lived on the Northern Frontier of Rome and adopted Roman ways. The Huns invaded and they were given sanctuary in the Empire in return for service and citizenship. The Romans backed away from their citizen offer and treated them like shit. They rebelled defeated Roman armies and got a good treaty in 382. It worked and for about 15 years, they loyally served the Empire. Alaric, who was a Roman citizen and general of Gothic origins wanted a raise, good land for his troops and a promotion. The Romans denied this and the Gothic troops in the Roman Army rebelled.
Alaric never wanted to sack Rome, he wanted a homeland for the Gothic people within the Roman Empire and Roman Citizenship for his people. He died after the sack of Rome and in 416, the Goths were given Aquitaine and Spain. They defended the Roman Empire against the Huns in 451 and fought the barbarian Franks. When the Western Empire disintegrated, the Visigoth Kings in Spain declared the Regnum Hispania or the Kingdom of Spain. It was a Roman style regime and in fact, they recognized the Eastern Emperor as their overlord. Tey wre Byzantine vassals.
The Goths intermarried with the Hispano-Romans and by the mid 6th century called themselves Hispanicus (Spaniard). They preserved Roman culture and civilization, while the rest of the old Empire in Northwestern Europe like France and England descended into savagery. In fact in 698, Spanish (Gothic) troops were defended Carthage against Islamic assault for the Byzantine Empire.
The Goths get a bad rep in America but in the Spanish countries are considered heroes who prevented the Dark Ages from infecting Spain. Their problem was they lost their fighting spirit and this lead to Spain’s collapse when the Muzzies invaded.
@ Speranza:
See my 16.
tqcincinnatus wrote:
yes. It’s time for me to update my urbex blog. http://doppelgangerurbex.blogspot.com/
been on lots of expeditions lately with many good photos and stories.
just too lazy to update it. maybe tonight
Hey, does this mean nobody wants to listen to our medical problems anymore?//
Interesting flic on TMC right now. The Big Parade. A silent film about WWI. Filmed in 1925, it was a forerunner of All Quiet on the Western Front.
The Catalan people of Spain claim Gothic descent. This is why many Catalans look Germanic and have last names like Godoy, Godo or Godas. All are variation of the word Goth. Also Wilfredo and Alfredo are common Catalan names with clear Germanic origins.
@ tqcincinnatus:
Hey you had a kick ass thread.
@ Speranza:
Heaven help Detroit if the Lions win the Super Bowl.
Rodan wrote:
That’s whack, yo.
Rodan wrote:
I found the magic formula -- Disparage Ron Paul!
Of course, I do that already…
@ tqcincinnatus:
Yup the Goths in Spain became heavily Romanized all they wanted to do was drink wine, recite poetry and have sex.
Iron Fist wrote:
None. He is siding with the muzz because of his noble deeply held principles. He would never be so vulgar as to expect to be paid for upholding his beliefs in freedom and tolerance.
He really does think he is doing the right thing. He is the perfect dhimmi. Sequestered in his rarified world, Ignorant of history and so open minded from his false sense of security and personal power, that his brains are falling out.
The jihadi hyenas are circling him like he is a goat roasting on a spit.
@ yenta-fada:
I will!
Rodan wrote:
Decadence is an ugly thing.
@ tqcincinnatus:
You missed your own thread.
Rodan wrote:
That’s because I’m a retard!
@ tqcincinnatus:
Another little known fact about the Spanish Visigoths. Many of them dyed their hair black and got tanned, so they can appear Latin/Roman/Spanish.
@ Speranza:
Speranza, this is a great post. I am fascinated by ancient Rome and how it fell.
You can see the parallels of what is happening in he civilized world today.
Rodan wrote:
Everything I ever learned about Spain, I learned from here (or something).
Iron Fist wrote:
Would somebody please send Daisy Chain a bouquet of Daisy Cutters…
Rodan wrote:
My people dyed themselves blue so that they could appear more…well…I’m not actually sure why they did that.
Rodan wrote:
<—- looks around confusedly trying to figure out what is wrong with that…
@ Speranza:
I would have titled the thread, “Alaric’s Big Sack” just for the googlesearch perv traffic. ///
The fall of Rome is a subject that historians have debated ad infinitum.
Now Speranza, is that really true? I mean, if historians have debated it ad infinitum, then that would suggest that the Fall of Rome happened an infinite number of years ago. And we know that’s not the case, because we have historical sources which clearly date the fall to within the last 1600 years.
Rodan wrote:
The Barabarians actually wanted to be part of Rome, to have the benefits of the Roman way of life.
yenta-fada wrote:
yinz is killin me over there.
tqcincinnatus wrote:
Maybe I should have said ad nauseum?
Bunk X wrote:
Nobody could do a good sacking as good as The Mongols.
Speranza wrote:
LOL, I’m just in the mood to be a jerk tonight. Please forgive me in advance.
@ Doppelganger:
bring em over here for the weekend.
good stuff that!
Rodan wrote:
Sort of like sex, drugs and rock and roll (Keith Richards’ family motto).
coldwarrior wrote:
DUDE… Were old, old people sit around bitching about their health and the abuses to their dignity inflicted to them by members of the Torturers Guild errr I mean the medical community.
Y’all take it easy! Gotta run!
tqcincinnatus wrote:
No problem. Iam going to fix my wording and mess everyone up wondering what the hell you are talking about.
doriangrey wrote:
i know, i hear it all the time.
@ Rodan:
I remember reading that account too. I saw a show abt. the sacking of Rome and the premise was that the
Roman leaders jacked them up by promising meat, grain and wine to be delivered to where they were wintering in the North of Italy. And when the provisions arrived to feed the conscripted goth soldiers and their families, all the provisions were spoiled, rotten and inedible. This so outraged Alaric that he got his men together and marched on Rome. He blew into town to kick the shit out of the Roman rulers who had so disrespected him and his soldiers.
Speranza wrote:
BS… They were just looking for a loop hole in the Roman tax code…
@ chickadee:
When you go to Rome you will only see a tiny portion of Imperial Rome.
doriangrey wrote:
Was the Vespasian tax codes going to be allowed to expire on New Years 4011?
doriangrey wrote:
Boring G-d. The second death…
Speranza wrote:
Probably…
@ tqcincinnatus:
Some good sources there. I got my knowledge from reading Spanish books and some of the authors listed there!
@ Speranza:
Fixed that for you!
Doppelganger wrote:
Your pics are amazing. Haunting and unusual.
Rodan wrote:
Thanks. My mistake.
waldensianspirit wrote:
You do know that song lyrics technically fall under the definition of poetry, right?
@ Speranza:
I read the reason Alaric was mad because there was a 5th century Roman Chronicler named Carolus Johnsonus who was smearing him!
I’d love to find that Mr. Garcia is right on this
coldwarrior wrote:
Yeah, must feel like a work day to y’all.
@ Rodan:
He played a harp!
yenta-fada wrote:
well…yeah.
Rodan wrote:
i thought he played a lyre?
@ tqcincinnatus:
I think the true collapse of Rome was the Final Roman-Persian wars. Remember that the Eastern Empire took back Rome and North Africa. If that war hadn’t happened, the whole west would of been recovered. That wart opened up the door to Islam.
@ coldwarrior:
i thought he played a lyre?
Yes man my fuzzy memory from reading history books! Carolus Johnsonus was originally lyre player. He then became a chronicler but was known as a smear merchant. He always trashed the Goths and they got pissed.
Rodan wrote:
snort!
coldwarrior wrote:
No, he was a lyre, he played a harp begging for lute, profoundly mediocre player he was too…
Rodan wrote:
Ha ha, see my #71
doriangrey wrote:
No, he was a lyre, he played a harp begging for lute, profoundly mediocre player he was to boot!
howz that?
Rodan wrote:
yes Carolus Jonhnsonus was looking for Bad Craziness amongst the Barbarians led by Glennus Beckus and Sarahus Palinus.
coldwarrior wrote:
Heh heh heh
profoundly mediocre player who should have got the boot!
Bad News in Florida, the racketeer Rick Scott is winning. Count the Florida governorship as a Democratic pickup.
@ Doppelganger:
Your pics and Carl Sandburg, snip from Four Preludes on Playthings of the Wind….
2.
The doors were cedar
and the panels strips of gold
and the girls were golden girls
and the panels read and the girls chanted:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.
The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
where the golden girls ran and the panels read:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.
3.
It has happened before.
Strong men put up a city and got
a nation together,
And paid singers to sing and women
to warble: We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.
yenta-fada wrote:
*urp*
*fart*
*uuuuuurp*
You were saying?
F wrote:
You’re a real symphony.
yenta-fada wrote:
Wait till he starts scratching his behind, you’ll think somebody is playing a Charles Johnson recording…
doriangrey wrote:
wicked.
just finished water sealing the deck…i bought a 1200watt dual halogen light system so i could work at night outside…damn is that thing bright.
my neighbors luv me!
coldwarrior wrote:
No, they just now suspect that Aliens were visiting you, and you were getting, welllll You know….
doriangrey wrote:
ya mean like cartman on south park…
@ doriangrey:
that damn light set up is stupid bright.
that’s better.
@ coldwarrior:
He I just called.
coldwarrior wrote:
That stuff will be under yer fingernails for the next 10 days. Look at your keyboard.
@ Rodan:
phone was off.
coldwarrior wrote:
Well ya know…
@ huckfunn:
no doubt!
Mayor Douchebag Bloomberg holding Iftar dinner for Mudslimes.
Speranza wrote:
Hmmm Bet ya he doesn’t try to ban them from purchasing hand guns…
@ doriangrey:
Do the aliens use sedation or anesthesia?
If they do, I’m switching my insurance…
doriangrey wrote:
Of course not. That would infringe on their 1st Amendment rights to celebrate weddings and soccer wins…
lobo91 wrote:
Ask CW, apparently they were at his house ummmm, scaring his neighbors, ummm, ya, that’s what they were doing….
lobo91 wrote:
Not to mention impede the sacramental rites which proceed the celebration of the holy splodyedope…
@ doriangrey:
i’m looking for the eric cartman/southpark episode with the anal probe and i cant find a good copy.
@ coldwarrior:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103511
The whole thing?
who was the POS in the HR department that hires her in the first place. its effin disney man! the costumes are part of the schtick. HR are idiot bastards that are bent on destroying companies.
@ doriangrey:
Bloomberg is a Dhimmi.
@ m:
i have all of them on dvd i was looking for a particular scene on youtube, no dice ona good copy.
FOX is calling Scott as the winner over McCollum int the Florida Gov. Primary.
@ coldwarrior:
She has been removed from their schedule.
If she didn’t want the other jobs offered (where she could wear her own head covering) she was doing it just to make them let her.
@ m:
upon getting hired or working as an intern disney makes EVERYONE sign the dress code form.
her shitbag union rep can go march in hell because the union has already approved said code as part of the contract.
its is enforced too.
m wrote:
ROTFLMMFAO………………
@ doriangrey:
Nice, lol!
@ doriangrey:
she can wear her god damned head wrap when there is a hooters bar (with proper uniforms)in mecca.
@ coldwarrior:
This one wasn’t their fault. She didn’t start wearing the headscarf until she’d been working there for 2 years.
@ Rodan:
The Huns were paid off with “tributes.” They extorted money from Rome (and others who couldn’t fight them) and Rome gave them what they wanted just to keep the peace.
Tatars did the same thing, i.e. attack, kill all the adult males, put the male children of the conquered into slavery, and have their way with the women, who were chattel regardless of the conquerors of the time.
lobo91 wrote:
that still does not negate my comments about HR in general.
m wrote:
THE RULES don’t apply to Muslims. They’re special.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGRN39oifsE&feature=player_embedded
@ lobo91:
and, i know peeps that work and worked in disney. violate the dress code that you sign upon hiring and you are gone, period. no union defense, no messing around. that company is very serious about their image.
HR needs to fire her over that.
disney takes its dress code seriously like UPS takes to drunk driving one of the package cars. instant termination.
Speranza wrote:
Detroit was sacked 28 times last year.
@ yenta-fada:
Yup. If “man-made laws” don’t apply to them, then neither do mouse-made work rules.
Speranza wrote:
Ahh. Those were the days.
coldwarrior wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of a a Oppenheimer brand Mushroom Farm in the middle of downtown Mecca…
coldwarrior wrote:
Oh, I know.
The only reason they haven’t fired her is because she’s a Muslim, obviously.
@ yenta-fada:
Ha! YUP!
@ doriangrey:
gorgeous!
lobo91 wrote:
HR fucking up a perfectly good company…again.
coldwarrior wrote:
Well ya know, those Oppenheimer brand Mushrooms are simply to die for…
oh well…off to the overnight.
Bunk X wrote:
“Oh, how much better to lie on one’s bier, than to be a captive on the way to Tatary.”
The Crimean Tatars raided Brest-Litovsk in 1500, Minsk in 1505, and Vilnius in 1510; they killed hundreds of thousands and carried many more off to slavery from Moscow in 1571, and actually drew up plans for conquest of Muscovy; only the Russian victory at Molodi a year later prevented this. They viewed their actions as gazavat, i.e. holy war, against the giaour, i.e. infidel. Nevertheless, they themselves were considered apostates by strict Muslims because they continued to rule according to the laws of Genghis Khan, the Yasaaq, as well as according to the Shari’a. The Crimean Tatars were vassals of the much more pious, even more brutal Ottoman Turks.
coldwarrior wrote:
Honestly, if one worships a deity whose holy books proclaim that the hair of a woman must be covered because it is one of ten ‘awrat (i.e. external genitalia), then wouldn’t a hat suffice as much as the hijab? Or must they turn the Occident into the Caliphate by rejecting everything of the former as shirk and kufr and trying to impose the latter upon us?
The hijab = ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM.
Good morning everyone!
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