When I read this I was stunned. For nearly seven years American forces in Iraq fought in a restrained manner. They stood by as Iraqis destroyed Chaldean churches and had to deal with non stop attacks. China and France won the oil contracts not the US! This made the American public turn against the war and view the Iraqis as ingrates. This sour mood about Iraq is part of what propelled Barack Hussein Obama to the White House. Bush implemented the surge strategy which brought some measure of stability to Iraq. Now that we are leaving, The Iraqis want us to stay.
BAGHDAD (AFP) – A majority of Iraqis believe it was the wrong time for a major withdrawal of US combat troops, a poll said on Tuesday, with more than half also warning that it would have negative consequences.
When asked if it was the right time for American soldiers to leave — the US military earlier confirmed troop numbers in Iraq had fallen under 50,000 for the first time — 59.8 percent said no, compared to 39.5 percent who said yes.
Read the rest: Iraqis say ‘wrong time’ for US withdrawal
The saying “be careful what you wish for” is causing this opinion of Iraqis. They hated us and attacked us, now they want us to stay. America got very little out of the Iraq war other than removing Saddam. We got no oil and did nothing about the destruction of the Chaldean Christian community. We didn’t even give refugee status to the Christians. The Iraqis shouldn’t have launched those attacks on our troops or call for us to leave. They got what they wanted and now will regret it.
Personally, I don’t think we should leave Iraq as it’s a staging area we can use against the Saudis, Syrians and Iranians. But the decision is made and I personally couldn’t care less what happens to the Iraqi people except the Kurds who are true allies and deserve a state. The time is right for a Free Kurdistan!
My philosophy from day one was reduce Iraq to rubble and walk away. Dont leave two stone standing upon each other and salt the ground as we leave.
We stayed to long, lost to many of our finest citizens and got nothing for our investment. Fuck the Iraqi’s in the neck.
Hey, Joe! Why you leave? Where I get chewing gum, cigarettes, weaponry?
doriangrey wrote:
I agree!
Thing is, how is it that Americans still vote for Democrats, considering they give the heave-ho to every victory America has.
You would think that after what the Democrats and Lt. for life John F. Kerry did to America and the people of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia some thinking would happen. But no, to may fultonchain, aka, fools on the commie thinking chain gang.
Rodan wrote:
This is pure emotion not rational political thinking. We don’t need another Somalia or Taliban-like state in the ME. We don’t need an Iraq with much more influence from Iran.
There are others there,, Kurds and others,
the ones of terror of islam and the commie thugs, ya do them,,,,
help the good ones, allow them to rule or deal with the bad ones via our power…
like that@ Rodan:
taxfreekiller wrote:
Ummm, Stockholm syndrome??????
@ Guggi:
@ taxfreekiller:
@ taxfreekiller:
Same thing with Iran, help the good ones, allow them to deal with the bads ones with our power
@ Guggi:
collapsed states are very rarely a threat away from their own borders.
i am indiffernet to the iraqi’s. if they fail, then we should do an imperial roman style blood for oil.
Guggi wrote:
Who is talking about creating another Somalia or Taliban-like state in the ME? We’re talking about the worlds largest self lite glass topped parking lot, one that can be seen from orbit.
@ Guggi:
Our problem was we didn’t exactly defeat them before we started to rebuild, and we never treated them as a defeated enemyu. We let them determine their Constitution, and thus their Constitution is based on Sharia Law. That itself is practically losing the war. We have done the same thing in Afghanistan. In our effort to prove how fucking tolerant we are, we’ve allowed the enemy to turn our victory into a defeat, no matter how long we stay, how many schools we build, or how much Iraqi oil China gets out of the deal. When we leave, we will leave an Islamic State behind. It is only a matter of time before they become another Iran or Somolia. Because we allowed them to found their Constitution on Islam, and that is the type of nation Islam produces.
@ Iron Fist:
Exactly, which is why we should have just nuked them from orbit and called it a day, no American lives lost and problem solved.
@ Guggi:
Americans have died and gained nothing. My Cousin fought and it messed him in the head. He saw Churches burnt and bombed and could do nothing.
@ taxfreekiller:
Plus we should give Iraqi Christians priority for resettlemet status. We did nothing to help them and we do owe them.
Biden and I are buddies on this one. Well his early on position of dividing it into tribal areas that were there before Iraq in 1958. And my addition was quietly turning the oil fields into US and coalition territories. Think there wouldn’t have been a coalition then?
@ waldensianspirit:
iraq is a fictitious state.
I’ve always thought that all that “winning hearts & minds” baloney was a misguided and wrong strategy doomed to failure.
BTW – That Muslim cab driver who was stabbed in New York has the hatemongers on a certain liberal, fascist hate site in full moonbat mode. Being the hateful, bigoted liberals that they are, they’ve already condemned Fox News and all those who are opposed to the Ground Zero Mosque as responsible for the stabbing.
It now turns out that the stabber worked at a pro-Park51 group, he was a fucking liberal! I wouldn’t be surprised if he had an account at 1.0.
I take it that we can now blame all liberal blog, liberal bigots, liberal fascists and liberal hatemongers for this Muslim stabbing. Liberals are deranged and despicable beings.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/AntiMuslim_attacker_works_at_proPark51_group.html
The surge authorized by Bush and lambasted by Obama and the left resulted in the successful drawdown of troops, again a Bush negotiated withdrawal that Obama is now taking credit for. Obama wanted to pull everyone out quickly and declare defeat. Obama’s only job was to get elections resulting in a stable government which he has failed to do. The reason for this is because he wants nothing to do with Iraq. The Iranians, the Turks, and the Saudis are all bringing their power to bear on various parties for their national interests. Obama is not. Oh well, China has the oil contracts, let them ensure stability.
This is insane:
Lest anyone accuse me of taking this out of context, here are some further thoughts on this:
As my previous post points out, Afghanistan’s Constitution explicitly states that Sharia is the foundation of Afghan law. There is nothing here about becoming a pluralistic society, or tolerance of, I dunno, other religions, not stoning rape victims to death or cutting off the heads of people who “defame Islam”. This is a formula for surrender. That may be exactly what Obama told him to do, but let’s not beat around the bush about what it is.
@ Mad Mullah:
Oh someone post that for chuckie. Please.
@ Mad Mullah:
Well, the only people Muslims like to kill more than Christians or Jew’s is other Muslims…
I’m tired of helping the muzz. It can’t be done because of islam.
If we have learned anything in this war, I hope it is obvious we should not lift a finger for them unless they are willing and ready to embrace the civilized world.
No more American should die trying to save hearts and minds of savages.
We need full out victory and subjugation of them and then see if they want to get with the program.
@ Rancher:
Agreed!
Let China send troops to Iraq. We shouldn’t die so Chinese can get oil.
coldwarrior wrote:
Right off of an oil surveyors map!
@ Mad Mullah:
Oh noes! How’s Charles taking the news?
@ chickadee:
Agreed!
@ Iron Fist:
Figuring out that the Obama doctrine is admitting that we broke it, apologizing and paying for it… Priceless….
@ Rancher:
You don’t need no stinky oil-contracts, you have promised green energy
@ Mad Mullah:
coldwarrior wrote:
I didn’t see them as threat for the e.g. Iran but they could become a proxy of the Iran like Lebanon.
Guggi wrote:
And the difference would be?
Iron Fist wrote:
The big problem was that the USA disbanded and disarmed the military in Iraq.
@ waldensianspirit:
Yup!
Guggi wrote:
we know how that’s going to turn out, Spain already tried it. As long as the oil is being marketed it doesn’t matter who does it. That’s why the blood for oil crap was just that.
@ Guggi:
If/when Iran gets nukes, that will be the least of our worries. You can make the whole region into Greater Iran, though they may not call it that. It will become the fifedom of Iran, and subject to her will, whether the boots of Iranian soldiers tramp their streets or not. Syria will be a semi-autonomous satrapy, and Israel will be completely surronded by enemies. That is if Iran doesn’t announce her nuclear capability by launching a nuclear war. That is where Obama’s foreign policy is taking us.
@ Guggi:
I have a beach front Condo in Vegas to sell you!
Mad Mullah wrote:
OMG, this guy was a lib ? That is so outrageous.
Was he doing this to make us look bad? Of course this attack has already been pinned on “conservatives”
Why else would he ask the cab driver if he was a muzz, and then stab him. If was just a nut job he would not have asked that question.
Have the progs gone so mad, they are willing to kill people so we get the rap?
This sick.
@ Iron Fist:
That why israel needs to destroy Hamas, Hizballaha nd take down the Syrian regime.
chickadee wrote:
Welcome to Marxism, this is how Marxism always ends up, just ask Trotsky.
@ Guggi:
No. We get told that a lot, but the Iraqi army was not much of a fighting force to begin with. They were a mob of untrained conscripts armed with AK-47s. It would have been a mess, our troops trying to ride herd on a bunch of conscripts with no common language or means of communication. The Republican Guard was a little different, but that is why we had to destroy the Republican Guard in detail. Much of the vaunted “resistance” was foreign fighters. Al Qaeda in Iraq, or in Messopotainia, if you are the New York Times, was backed by Iran (oh, but the Shi’ites won’t help the Sunni), and really weren’t very good. Suicide bombing is not a tactic of professional soldiers. No our mistake was in not giving them a Constitution and government the way we did Japan, and making them live with it. It worked in Japan. It would have seemed to me the model to follow for this occupation, but we were trying to be a more sensitive occupying force.
@ Rodan:
You’ll get no arguement from me. Kill ‘em all.
Rodan wrote:
Israel should start by expelling all those Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, force the Egyptians to bite the bullet, push them into Egypt and make the Egyptians either let them in or force the Egyptians to kill them.
Then with the Gaza and West Bank problems solved proceed to sterilize Lebanon of everything Islamic and then move on to Syria.
Rancher wrote:
Like any deluded liberal who is in full denial mode, I suppose.
Those moronic liberals are sure quick to demand tolerance and to urge others not to jump to conclusions or pass judgement in certain cases, but they are sure quick to blame certain groups, if they happen to belong to the right or have any connection to the right at all. Most Americans are actually against the Mosque, so the anti-American liberals are a fringe bunch of insane lunatics who often find themselves on the wrong side of facts and the truth.
It wouldn’t be the first time that liberals have wrongly accused certain segments of society. The moronic liberal mayor of New York, Bloomberg, suggested that a person upset with the health care bill was behind the attempted Islamic Terrorist Bombing in Times Square.
I’m sure there’s yet more facts to come out in this cabbie stabbing story, but it sure is dumb to jump to conclusions and point fingers, such as the idiotic, hate filled liberals have been doing in this case, yet again.
Remember Sadr is already back from 3 year exile in Iran.
chickadee wrote:
Politico certainly makes that implication:
The alleged assailant, Michael Enright, is — according to his Facebook profile and the website of the left-leaning media organization Intersections International — a student at the School of Visual Arts and a volunteer for Intersections, which recently produced a statement of support for the Park51 project, and is funded by the mainstream, liberal Collegiate Church of New York.
Iron Fist wrote:
ROTFLMAO… Never thought I would hear of anything that would make this easy…
@ waldensianspirit:
Yep. I expect reletive quite until we pull the rest of our troops out next year, then straight to hell in a handbasket. The same with Afghanistan. We are giving the Taliban the chance to get everything they had back without fighting if they’ll just play along for a year. They ain’t the brightest bulb in the candelabra, but I’m betting they are smart enough to get with the program.
@ Iron Fist:
We didn’t exactly give Japan its Constitution. In fact McArthur was really pissed that they refused to have a standing Army. The Potsdam Declaration outlined certain Democratic conditions that they had to meet for surrender and withdrawal but they were encouraged to write their own document.
@ doriangrey:
Except the cats look like:
ululululululu!
Gotta love this!
Fire Destroys Anti-Israel Turkish Film
Reported: 11:27 AM – Aug/24/10
The virulently anti-Israel Turkish TV show “Ambush in the Valley of the Wolves” spinoff movie “The Valley of the Wolves: Palestine” hit a snag this week when a fire destroyed many of the film’s negatives. The incident was reported by the Hebrew-language daily Maariv.
@ doriangrey:
Israel should establish a Christian State in Lebanon after the Muzzies are expelled.
@ doriangrey:
Yeah, the people who fault our generals for sending home the “Iraqi Army” don’t have a clue about what that “army” really was. It wasn’t a disciplined and effective fighting force, that is for sure, but these people seem to think it was. They tend to be the same people who freak out that securing the Bagdhad museum wasn’t our top priority as the Iraqi State disintegrated.
Rodan wrote:
The Christians should do that themselves. Israel is not into nation building.
@ waldensianspirit:
Self-imposed exile to Iran for “religious studies”.
@ Rodan:
@ Speranza:
H aha ha ha, hey do a post on that!
@ Rancher:
We didn’t permit them to make Shinto the foundation of it, or mandate the worsip of Hirohito. I thought we were the ones who insisted Japan not have an Army, though. The Pacific theater is not my strongest suit. Most of my WWII studies have been in the European theater. Nevertheless, my objection remains. We should not have allowed Iraq and Afghanistan to become explicitly Mohammedan nations. That is effectively losing the war. It would have been like letting Nazi Germany remain Nazi.
Speranza wrote:
What a shame!
I just recently saw Inglorious Basterds on cable and when I read your story, I thought of a certain scene in that movie involving film reels.
Rodan wrote:
It is just a blurb.
Mad Mullah wrote:
The Turks really need a comeuppance.
@ Guggi:
With a special runway for your Fuell cell private jet plane.
@ Speranza:
Do you have a link?
@ Speranza:
They can if re armed and trained. However, US policy is preventing Maronites from getting weapons.
If you didn’t think that the Obama Administration would be going fo r gun control, check this out:
That would be as effective as banning guns, and it would be done by regulations that already exist, not something Congress has to vote on. With a divided Congress, there will be nothing that the Republicans can do until 2012, at the soonest.
Rodan wrote:
I don’t really care if the Lebanese create a Christian State when the Muslims are gone or not. I’m not into nation building, I do not subscribe to the ideology that “You broke it, you fix it”.
The concept of “You broke it, you fix it” as statecraft is a Marxist disarmament philosophy. It does not exist to create functional democracies, it functions to convince democratic republics that they cannot afford to interfere in the affairs of other nations.
I personally subscribe to the ideological philosophies of William Tecumseh Sherman and George S. Patton. War is Hell and should never be entered into lightly, but once engaged the full weight of that hell should be unleashed upon those who forced the gates of hell open.
Burn them to the ground and leave only their corpses and memories to pick up the pieces and rebuild.
@ Iron Fist:
That’s a slick way for them to ban guns. Get rid of ammo and guns are useless.
@ Iron Fist:
more here. Hat Tip: Instapundit. This is the kind of shit I’ve been afraid of. Nothing will happen until the election, but after the election Obama and the Democrats are going to want to punish the American people.
@ doriangrey:
I’m talking about arming the Lebanese Christians and supporting them. They can fight Muzzies and have proven it in the past.
@ Rodan:
Yep. That is why everyone should have a 5.56X45 weapon in their “collection” (we dasn’t call it an “arsenal”; that would be mean). That is the caliber US military weapons fire, so you will always be able to re-supply.
Guggi wrote:
This. A thousand times this.
The de-Baathification of Iraq was a mistake and cluster fuck from the beginning. Bremer removed the entire bureaucracy, along with the military, immediately turning Iraq into a failed state totally dependent on the good will of the United States. The half million or so Baathists barred from the government included the most competent along with the most dangerous.
The former military and security people we impoverished, incarcerated or killed happened to be the people who understood how Iraq worked, who the bad guys were and where they lived. The Iraqi’s fought their own battles against suicidal Jihadists.
We then attempted to replace them with NGO’s who lacked the most fundamental knowledge of a culture foreign to them. This didn’t exactly make us popular and our intelligence gathering zealotry (you know, torture) didn’t exactly help with the whole hearts and minds thing.
Let’s not forget that Iraq was a functioning country and no friend of fundie Islam even pre-Invasion. Preserving portions of that infrastructure would have gone a long way towards allowing Iraq to be self reliant again — it would have also meant that we retained a measure of control over them. People are often nice to the ones paying them a living wage in a devastated economy.
Compared to the lunatics running around now, the secular — murderous, genocidal, and greedy — but secular, Baathists may have been easier to deal with.
New DOD!
Nancy follows Nancy on twitter
doriangrey wrote:
The weather underground had a plan that entailed killing 25 million Americans so they could get communism rolling in this country.
@ fultonchain:
I can’t believe I’m agreeing with you. You are spot on!
Rodan wrote:
I’m a little iffy on that to, not because I oppose the idea, but because memory reminds me of what our democrat/Marxist/treasonous bastard politicians love doing to resistance fighter backed by the American people. I respect and admire Lebanese Christians just as I respect and admire Kurds (and the Vietnamese, Cambodians, ect ect ect…), but like both groups I haven’t forgotten or forgiven the Democrat’s for what they did to those groups in the past.
More reasons to dislike the Obama Administration:
This surely shouldn’t surprise anyone, but I don’t expect it will make any difference to Obama. He has planned to lose in Afghanistan since he was running for President, if not before.
beware of the fool on a chain
1. fed
or
2. worse a Democrat party troll
This debate should be fun, the RINO David Frum will spittle himself crazy telling why we should have open borders.
http://www.cis.org/Announcements/ConservativesAndImmigration
http://www.cis.org
Not that the Southern Proverty Law Center , CJ or fool on a chain care how many millions of illegals roost here for free.
@ Iron Fist:
I guess we’ll have to become sneaky bastards!:
@ taxfreekiller:
…and self-admitted former bookkeeper for pimps.
Hey CW….Little Miss wants to know if there is a schedule yet. Feel free to email me when you have time. No hurry.
@ fultonchain:
I disagree, the only thing in Iraq worth preserving was the oil.
taxfreekiller wrote:
Dude, why are you such a dick.
I am, for the most part, respectful of others. Yet, you persist in dropping steaming turds concerning me into threads while offering little or no substance. I’m not going to waste my time responding to every little provocation, but did want you you to know that you’re looking stupid and petulant. Stop shitting on the carpet and behave like an adult.
And yes, I am quiet well fed (crab cakes, clams and Gulf shrimp, by the water along with good beer or four makes a lovely lunch) and make no bones about my party affiliation.
Have a pleasant day and do try to be a little less obtuse.
@ taxfreekiller:
I hate David Frum.
Rodan wrote:
I feel the same way about Afghanistan. Let the Chinese secure the area for their mineral rights.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Same old shit, if you make a point, make it where there is no room for any more debate, the subject will be changed.
or
Race
or
False flag / red herring counter attacks.
or
The Constitution is to much a restraint in the moder age.
or
Your ideas are old.
or
We have 50.1% the votes screw you and the 49.9% with you.
@ fultonchain:
You are absolutely correct.
@ doriangrey:
Good points!
modern@ taxfreekiller:
oops, directed at fool on a chain and its arguments@ taxfreekiller:
Rodan wrote:
Thanks… I think you might be surprised how much we agree on.
I still think we invaded the wrong country. It would have been nice to get Iran while we had the chance, I think they are a greater threat than Saddam on his evilest day.
Hell, Iraq probably would have helped pay for a war on Iran.
because commie liberal democrats are no good liars all
because commie liberal democrat ideas are destroying the U.S.A.
because commie liberal democrats voters get U.S. Fighting men killed.
obtuse enough for you@ fultonchain:
De-Baathification isn’t what brought al Qaeda to Iraq. It may have given them some recruits, so I’ll agree that instead of sending those people home (the leaders, not the conscripts), we probably would have been better off executing them. But al Qaeda would have come, anyway. Al Sadr would have been a pain in the ass, anyway (speaking of people we should have killed). We’d have still been right where we are today, most likely, either way.
taxfreekiller wrote:
I’m unclear on everything you spewed, but this stood out.
Are you the screwee or the screwer? Because, last time I checked election results we had a pretty clear majority. Even that troublesome popular vote.
@ fultonchain:
bingo. well said. i agree.
@ vapig:
Amen and I absolutely agree 100%
@ NoThreat2U:
emailed…more to follow tomorrow.
@ fultonchain:
I agree and i have argued that point many times. Iran was a 1000 Times greater danger than Iraq.
But, but…then the Arabs will claim to be victims of oppression if they can’t possess all of the Middle East west of Luristan and east of the Canary Islands for themselves!
coldwarrior wrote:
I might have, too—had he not thrown in that tired and discredited “torture” accusation, and stated, erroneously, that Saddam’s Iraq was no friend to the jihadists. Not only was Saddam paying bonuses to the families of suicide bombers in Israel, he was sheltering both Al Qaeda and anti-Israel jihadis prior to the invasion.
Iron Fist wrote:
Bremer’s idiotic de-baatification policy, combined with the total elimination of the Iraqi military and security services, resulted in utter chaos, which is what allowed the insurgency to start.
Bremer, Rumsfeld, and the entire Coalition Provisional Authority staff should burn in hell for what they did.
Instead, Bush gave that fucking moron the Presidential Medal of Freedom when he got home. I guess the Nobel Peace Prize wasn’t available.
@ coldwarrior:
@ lobo91:
He’s right and I read many military members who said De Baathification was a mistake. That idea was Brenner, Wolfowitz and David Frum. A bunch of academics who don’t live in reality.
@ lobo91:
Amen!
@ buzzsawmonkey:
I sense that tfk didn’t miss that either;-)
@ lobo91:
They have the blood of 4,000 Americans on their hands plus countless wounded.
@ coldwarrior:
OK
Rodan wrote:
Iraq under Saddam wasn’t all that different from Yugoslavia.
The only thing holding it together as a country was the military and security services.
The fact that it fell apart when they were eliminated shouldn’t have been much of a surprise.
What do you think would happen in your hometown if the state and local police, the sheriff’s department, the FBI, and the National Guard were eliminated tomorrow morning?
Iron Fist wrote:
I’m not sold on this. I think what brought al Quaeda in as much as anything was the void. We left a real big hole in the day to day policing of Iraq. In a great part because of Saddam’s cruelty and intelligence gathering religious extremism wasn’t the problem in Iraq it is today.
They surely would have tried to get in, and some would have, but I don’t think it would be on the scale it is now.
The Iraqi homegrown Jihadists would hopefully have been contained by an intact (and monitored, cleansed, vetted) national police force.
Getting the lights back on in a reasonable time does the hearts and minds part — too bad we grabbed up and purged anyone who had idea how utilities worked. This, and the improved infrastructure gained by leaving the bureaucracy in place, may have turned the tide early on.
I guess it’s fun to play what if, I just wish I had some idea what we were going to do now. 50,000 troops is an awful number. It’s too many to fly under the radar and too few to provide actual security. I fear we’re just painting a big bulls-eye on them while we argue about a building in NYC.
@ Rodan:
Oh, and add in everyone who works for the power company, the sewer and water department, all the teachers at the local schools, and the city, county, and state workers.
@ fultonchain:
Well said!
@ fultonchain:
Check out Lobo’s 100 and 106.
<——-civvie…who has to do the math to understand military time. lol lol
@ buzzsawmonkey:
then u get rid of saddam and replace with a puppet.
easy.
@ lobo91:
Brenner and his gang did it because they believe the Wilsonian nonsense about that everyone wants Democracy. It’s a pipe dream. They convinced Bush by giving him some book by Nathan Sharansky. That book claimed everyone wants Democracy. This caused delusion Brenner, WOlfowitz, Rumsfeld and David Frum sold to Bush.
You can’t have Democracy without law and order first.
You said exactly the same thing my Cousin and others in the military said.
Rodan wrote:
Yeah – but Iran didn’t try to kill Bush’s daddy.
NoThreat2U wrote:
subract 12 from the numbers higher than 12…
1300 is 1pm
1500 is 3pm
2000 is 8 pm
und so weiter
@ coldwarrior:
Fulton is spot on here and Lobo is confirming what I heard from many military members.
@ vapig:
Ah yes! I’m sure that effected Jr’s thinking!
For anyone interested in just how clueless Bremer and company were, I highly recommend a book called Imperial Life in the Emerald City.
You can probably find a copy at your local used book store for about $5.00.
Iron Fist wrote:
Actually I firmly believe that based on their culture their morals and their ethics that the more of them we killed the better off we would be today. Muslims in general and Arabs in specific have a culture that respects pure unadulterated power and utterly despises those who negotiate and compromise.
Democratic Republics stand on a bedrock foundation of negotiation and compromise. Because of that indisputable reality the only thing we will ever receive from any middle eastern Islamic nation is deceit and betrayal.
What we should have done since our leaders didn’t have the testicular fortitude to turn Iraq and Afghanistan into puddles of glass was to kill every single Islamic cleric in both of those countries, and we should have done so because the clerics are the de-facto military commanders.
You cannot win any conflict where you commit either of the two most disastrous mistakes possible.
The second worst mistake in any armed conflict that you can possible make is not identifying you opponent.
The single worst mistake you can make in any armed conflict is to declare your opponent off limits to engage in combat.
In both Iraq and Afghanistan America’s politicians made both of those mistakes so here we are today begging our enemies to allow us to pay the damages and go home peacefully, and please don’t follow us home…
@ Rodan:
No way we could have worked side by side with Baathist thugs. No way. Then we could have been blame for real torture and oppression.
@ lobo91:
What would you have had them do? Leave them in place, move in and take over? If you are saying that we should have implemented an iron fisted (ahem) dictatorship as part of our occupation, you’ll hear no arguement from me. But when you say leave the Baath Party in control, how do you propose to control them? The only thing that held them in line was terror of the regime. You would have to replace that terror with terror of you. I’m all for it, but the American people wouldn’t have stood for it. Look at how people freaked out about Abu Grabass. Now think about how they would have reacted if we’d left the professional rapists in control of the Anbar Province. The Democrats would have stuck that in Bush and broke it off.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
I’m not going to argue the definition of “torture” with you. This has been done too many times before and everyone has their own line. I do know that photographs that were released, extraordinary rendition to private prisons overseas and the routine denial of long established civil rights to accused terrorists (even American citizens) sent a message that maybe we weren’t as snow white as some would believe.
As far as rewarding suicide bombers and harboring al Qaeda I would like to see confirmation from a reputable source. Otherwise, I’m afraid I’m going to chalk that up to a misunderstanding, just like the WMD and artillery tubes.
Rodan wrote:
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why the insurgency started, after we basically turned Baghdad into Mogadishu and then stood back and watched.
People basically said, “Yeah, Saddam was an evil bastard, and I’m glad he’s gone, but at least we had running water…”
America will never win any where in any way until the evil within is dealt with first.
The commie Democrat party and its loon anti war, global warming commie, statist base must be destroyed and put out of power for good.
Nothing can be done to correct the U.S. course unless we get their hands off the rudder forever.
No quater, vote war to the end. WIN.
@ waldensianspirit:
Why not?
The Military was OK with this.
fultonchain wrote:
I’ll agree with you there, although I think we can debate both Iraq and a Victory Mosque at Ground Zero. You are right that 50,000 just isn’t viable. It is too small and too spread out to do anything if SHTF, and too large to bug out if SHTF. It is like Obama stuck a big target out there to see if al Qaeda still wants some…
@ lobo91:
Exactly, people seek stability and security.
@ lobo91:
Also not every Baath member liked Saddam. They just kept their mouths shut.
heh…
i just pulled some old rusted hinges out of a fence post…anyone want some pics of them?
@ Iron Fist:
Nobody has suggested leaving the Ba’ath party in control of anything.
You clearly have no understanding of what it meant to be a Ba’ath party member in Iraq.
In order to have any sort of government or professional job, you had to be a member. Pretty much like you have to be a Democrat to work in Chicago.
I don’t really think the kindergarten teachers or garbage collectors were torturing people…
@ Rodan:
The Democrats would have raped Bush with it. If you think the fallout from Abu Grabass was bad, it was nothing to what you would have gotten had Bush actually done what you and Lobo are suggesting. Bush might have wound up in prison for War Crimes, unless President Kerry pardoned him. There are political diminsions to all these things. Bush would have been more likely to get away with nuking them post 9-11 than what you are suggesting.
@ Rodan:
Remember these guys? Now think of the next layer of thugs. And the next. Which level would you step in and lead? Lead the way they’d enforce power?
@ coldwarrior:
Only if they are expertly juxtaposed with a corner of concrete that borders some grass.
That would be art.
//
@ coldwarrior:
perfect
@ fultonchain:
No, Buzz is right on that. Hussein did pay $25,000 to the pals for suicide bombing inside Israel, and did harbor Zarkawi (sp). This isn’t even in question or disputed.
@ Iron Fist:
You can leave me out of it.
I’ve suggested nothing of the sort.
@ coldwarrior:
lol! Sure! Rust is always unique unto itself, right?
@ lobo91:
I don’t think they much had kindergarten teachers or garbage collectors. Iraq was a failed state. So how would you have vetted the Baath Party members? How do you tell the difference between Abdul abu Mohammed the rapist and torturer and Abdul abu Mohammed the guy you can leave in place?
And how do you sell that to the American voter after the Democrats and MSM have gotten through explaining to the voters that you are leaving the rapists and torturers in place?
waldensianspirit wrote:
Of course we could have. We worked side by side with plenty of Nazi party members after the war and get along fine with lots of party members in Russia and China.
Baathists joined the party for a variety of reasons but usually for money. Everybody wants to work their way into the middle class and buy a car. In Saddam’s Iraq (just like Soviet era Russia) party membership was a pre-requisite for professional employment.
There are just as many Baathist doctors as there are Baathist torturers.
Heck, I know plenty of people who have changed parties so they could work in city or county government. It happens all the time.
perfectly moral foreign policy gets americans killed.
i’d rather preserve my good guys, thanks.
fultonchain wrote:
Well, this is from the Hoover Institution, so its veracity may be disputed: Saddam Hussein’s Philanthropy of Terror
Saddam was, for all intensive purposes, the Arab equivalent of a National Socialist — in fact, National Socialism influenced the Iraqi branch of the Ba’ath Party through Khairallah Tulfah, Saddam Hussein’s uncle and mentor (and close friend of Mufti Muhammad Hadj Amin al-Husseini), author of the 1941 pamphlet Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies, and one-time mayor of Baghdad under Saddam Hussein. He was really nothing more than a murtadd, or apostate; he did, however, add the Takbir, Allahu Akbar, to the Iraqi flag, and he used the rhetoric of jihad against the Kurds during the genocidal al-Anfal campaign (the name of the operation of 1986-89 being based on the eighth Koranic sura, one of the last to be revealed and one of the major jihad suras), though his goal in Kurdistan was two-pronged, oil and genocide — jihad in the view of the inferiors who carried it out but not in the view of the superiors who planned it.
so, one fool on a chain
so easy to go along
just work with the third rate Sadam’s of Iraq
just the ones who put the Jews on the trains,
just the ones following orders, not all bad, just that they sort of went along with it all
Guggi wrote:
HOOOORAY!!!!
@ coldwarrior:
Yeah, it just took me a minute (or two). lol I find it hilarious that you mil guys do that.
@ vapig:
And Abu Abbas, Leon Klinghoffer’s murderer, was there too.
@ Iron Fist:
No, it wasn’t.
Not until Bremer got his hands on it.
It was a dictatorship, but it wasn’t a complete disaster.
Iron Fist wrote:
There, fixed that for you
@ fultonchain:
Read my 138. You know as well as I do what the MSM and the Democrats would have done to Bush had he done as you are suggesting.
fultonchain wrote:
Saddam Hussein’s payments of $25,000 on up to families of suicide bombers were widely reported even in the mainstream media prior to the invasion. He himself had announced them. If you have decided to use some convenient ratchets on your memory, that is not my problem.
Less widespread in reportage—but still sourced many places—were both the residence in Saddam’s Iraq of some Al Qaeda operatives (there was, IIRC, a mention of this even within the last several months), and the presence there of Abu Nidal, the leader of the terrorist raid on the Achille Lauro that culminated in the murder of wheelchair-bound American citizen Leon Klinghoffer.
The WMD that Saddam had were widely reported to have been shipped to Syria. Highly likely, in that Saddam had every reason, based on the first Gulf War, to assume that the US would wimp out before he was deposed and would leave him in power, after which he could repossess them. Since the WMD were, however, only one item in a very extensive casus belli laundry list—not the Sole Cause of Invasion promulgated by the lying Left—that is neither here nor there.
I have no idea what you consider a “reputable source”. I am, however, fully aware that your airy dismissal of these things shows either gross ignorance or utter mendacity.
I’m out, this is the evil within. IMHO
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
Not to mention that Salamn Pak had a training facility for storming international commercial aircraft, Or that just before 9/11 Mohamed Atta met with senior Iraqi diplomat Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani at the Iraqi Embassy in Prague.
@ fultonchain:
Exactly.
waldensianspirit wrote:
remove the top, not purge all Party memebers. Talk to any Military memeber about De Baathification. In fact ask Lobo, he’ll tell you. He’s a SGM and knows a hell more than you or I on this subject.
BTW- How’s that Iraqi Democacy with Sharia law and Pro-Iran parties running the place working out for you?
Hmm?
@ lobo91:
Oil fo r Food. Look, I know you don’t like me, and I could almost care, but do you really dislike me so much that you will defend Saddam’s Iraq just to be on the opposite side of the fight with me?
taxfreekiller wrote:
With this I totally agree! Progs are a degenerate cancer!
@ Philip_Daniel:
I don’t see anything about supporting al Qaeda or terror in Israel.
It says that although he incorporated some of the babble he was apostate. He used rhetoric to motivate Muslim troops — heck, we use religion to motivate troops all the time. If a prayer for victory or a pep talk by a chaplain qualifies as religion, we’ve been crusading for a long time now.
@ Rodan:
There is a third way. Carve it up as it was before 1958. Defang all international capabilities. Don’t rebuild or police it. Take oil fields as territories of the coalition nations.
fultonchain wrote:
Nope – it’s a full on mosk!
Iron Fist wrote:
Who the fuck is defending Saddam’s Iraq?
It sure as hell isn’t me. I spent half a year in the desert because of that asshole, so you can stick that shit right up your ass.
And what does the Oil for Food scandal have to do with anything? Massive corruption isn’t the definition of a failed state.
The inability to control its own borders, maintain order, and provide basic services to its population is.
Iraq was able to do that, for the most part, until Bremer wiped out its entire public sector with the stroke of a pen.
I knew I should have scrolled past this thread when I saw it…
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Let’s also not forget that Syria developed a nuclear site magically overnight!
Iron Fist wrote:
I think the American people are capable of deciding who is a teacher and who is a thug.
My suggestion would have been big giant public trials with the best legal representation for the accused that there is. Try ‘em, convict ‘em and hang ‘em.
After a few thousand of these things will settle down. There is no outcry, the Iraqi people are welcome to testify and it’s all transparent. The guilty get punished and we come out smelling like a rose.
Beats the hell out of running around screaming about national security while we’re shuffling hooded guys around the world on the taxpayers dime while the courts argue.
Bumr50 wrote:
damn, nope…just on a weathered 4×4 with a brick street in the background.
rats!
doriangrey wrote:
That is the bottom line.
That is basically what is happening now.
We are going home and asking them to not follow us.
@ fultonchain:
I also think they would have been a lot happier with half the number of casualties we took fighting an insurgency that probably wouldn’t have started.
@ Iron Fist:
Lobo and I are suggesting that de Batthification was a mistake. That’s what any Military person said. As for teh Media bashing Bush, that’s his fault. He was a chump who allowe the Left to walk over him. If he fought back, they wouldn’t get away with it.
On that note, I’m out.
My neck is now killing me again. I really didn’t need this shit today…
@ fultonchain:
waldensianspirit wrote:
I agree with that. Iraq is not a real countryt!
I’m glad we end in Agreement!
I have agood thread at 8:30 PM EST.
See you all then!
fultonchain wrote:
Case Closed
vapig wrote:
Oh, that was one of the assemble-it-yourself reactors that you can order from Sears.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
Were right there under every-bodies nose and the fultonchain’s who had a political agenda to advance lived in complete and total denial.
Pesticides, Precursors, and Petulance
By Douglas Hanson
lobo91 wrote:
We cntrolled the notrhern and southern no-fly zones. We had since the First Gulf War. Maintain order? I don’t know what Iraq’s non-government sponsored crime was like, but I don’t think I’d call what they had maintaining order. They people were to scared to riot in the streets. Basic services? Again, depends on your definition I guess. It wasn’;t Somolia, quite, but only because the Oil for Food corruption brought in enough funds and arms to keep its cementing terrors in power. Iraq was a failed shit-hole of a State, and had been since the end of the first Gulf War, by your own qualifications. Call me all the names you want, it’s no skin off my nose. Doesn’t strengthen your arguement, either. Now, I also asked how you would sell keeping the Baath Party on the payroll to the American people. Neither you, nor Rodan, nor Fultonchain has really answered that problem. The Democrats would have ran with “Rapists and Torturers on America’s Payroll”, the MSM would have gobbled it up, and Bush would have been lucky to have stayed out of jail. That is just the truth, and you know it.
Coordinated Attacks Strike 13 Towns and Cities in Iraq
Things like this perpetuates the craziness. IN REALITY it is a demonstration of their inability to strike at Americans so they aim their weaponry against their own citizens.
Crazy on a fucking stick.
m wrote:
No, it is Islamic theology wrapped up in a pretty package with a fancy bow.
Iron Fist wrote:
Exactly.
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