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Veteran Health, Safety and Support: A Forgotten American Debt

by Kafir ( 260 Comments › )
Filed under Blogmocracy, Guest Post, Health Care, Military at February 16th, 2011 - 11:30 am

Blogmocracy in Action!
Guest post by: KristaPeterson!




Veteran Health, Safety and Support:
A Forgotten American Debt

As this administration decides to wind down America’s involvement in the Middle East and begins bringing troops home, we must confront the true costs of war. However, monetary debts incurred through keeping us safe, the uncertain stability of the Middle East and the solidification of our continued unpopularity throughout the world are not the most difficult effects we must come to grips with. Instead, America must face the challenge of supporting our troops as they supported us. Unfortunately, the strong current of anti-military sentiment in America, extending even into politics, coupled with an unwillingness to devote the appropriate amount of funding, threatens to ensure our soldiers never receive the support, recognition or respect owed to them after taking on the burden of protecting a nation.

Sadly, these recent challenges present only the latest instance where the American government has failed its soldiers. Until the 1970s, the American government used asbestos in hundreds of capacities, exposing countless soldiers to the risks of this material. Asbestos, a naturally heat and chemical resistant mineral valued for its insulating properties, saw heavy use in many military capacities, including housing, vehicles and even basic equipment. From the 1940s through the 1970s, military members risked continued exposure to this material, with statistics indicating that 30% of those diagnosed with mesothelioma served at one point in the U.S. military.

What makes this situation for soldiers so devastating is that mesothelioma symptoms generally fail to appear for 20 to 50 years. Unfortunately, with such long delays in exposure, symptoms are rarely connected with this material, meaning patients typically fail to receive quick treatment for this condition. Because identifying the disease in its earliest stages, while treatment options are most numerous and effective, is vital, this delay in recognition helps explain why such a poor prognosis accompanies this cancer. This delay also hurts veterans because the government offers no additional support for medical costs unless they can conclusively prove their exposure occurred during their military service. However, because of its frequent use in numerous industries, especially construction and manufacturing, proving one’s military exposure is confined to that period becomes incredibly difficult, representing another instance where the government fails to account for blatant disregard for their soldiers.

The U.S. military has come under fire regarding its issuance of insufficient protective equipment to soldiers. In response to military members purchasing alternative body armor for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. government banned the practice, claiming the body armor provided no additional protection. Instead, Army officials claimed that this privately-made equipment might not meet the standards of official military gear, claiming purchases were a waste of money and put soldiers in increased danger, despite the fact that this privately-purchased armor had not yet been tested by the military at the time of the ban. More likely, the government, fearing the public backlash over knowingly failing to provide the best protection to soldiers because of cost considerations, chose instead to outlaw any unofficial gear in an attempt to avoid any direct comparisons. This unfounded blanket repeal of privately purchasing equipment again highlights the political motivations of a nation without the best interest of their troops in mind.

While true that soldiers do knowingly submit themselves to the risks associated with military action upon joining, those threats should not come from the very government they have sworn to protect. If there is one thing a soldier should be able to rely upon when joining the United States military, it’s the full support of the government they are risking their lives on behalf of. However, our government’s continued refusal to support troops, generally prompted by selfish monetary concerns, stands as a continued black mark against a nation that used to have a proud history of supporting its citizens. Even recently-returning veterans, eager to build a life through education, hit major stumbling blocks when trying to claim GI Bill funding owed to them.

While we cannot definitively measure the toll our liberal government’s vocally unsupportive rhetoric took on soldiers in recent conflicts, the insufficient funding and deficiency of support given to soldiers clearly has led to undue suffering for millions of soldiers and their families. Starting with physical issues regarding asbestos, including disturbing mesothelioma life expectancy facts, and continuing with improper safety equipment, veterans continue to face numerous challenges in an increasingly unsupportive culture. However, as our soldiers prepare to come home from their service, media coverage of their struggles remains largely absent. Perhaps the result of mainstream media’s liberal inclination, these facts continue receiving less recognition in an administration bent on cutting military spending and the benefits owed to veterans. Whether the blame resides with this presidency’s continued hostility towards the military or the droves of impressionable young voters duped by these socialistic ideals, the continued mistreatment of veterans will undoubtedly continue unless more Americans speak up on the behalf of these service members who are the continued target of neglect and scorn.

~Krista Peterson



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260 Responses to “Veteran Health, Safety and Support: A Forgotten American Debt”
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  1. Speranza
    1 | February 16, 2011 11:39 am

    the uncertain stability of the Middle East and the solidification of our continued unpopularity throughout the world are not the most difficult effects we must come to grips with.

    I thought that it was that the world only hated Bush and that Obama was going to get everyone to love America. What gives?


  2. 2 | February 16, 2011 11:39 am

    This is good. Who is Krista Peterson? Has she got a Nic I’d recognize?


  3. Speranza
    3 | February 16, 2011 11:40 am

    I think the saddest thing is to see these young soldiers with arms and legs missing.


  4. Speranza
    4 | February 16, 2011 11:41 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    This is good. Who is Krista Peterson? Has she got a Nic I’d recognize?

    I believe she is a friend of Urban Infidel’s. Great post.


  5. Speranza
    5 | February 16, 2011 11:42 am

    I think that Steve McQueen died of mesothelioma which he got during his stint in the U.S. Navy.


  6. 6 | February 16, 2011 11:42 am

    @ Speranza:

    Yeah, I don’t think I could handle that myself. I had an arm torn up in a car wreck, and that was traumatic enough. Losing the limb would be awful. Unfortunately, that is what a lot of mines and IEDs are designed to do.


  7. taxfreekiller
    7 | February 16, 2011 11:46 am

    Its all OK not to worry.

    The Democrats will put former Lt. John F. Kerry in as committe chairman when they are in power and he will reach across to his buddy John McCain and when the Republicans are in power John McCain gets the chariman seat and he reaches across to Lt. Kerry.

    Two Party Evil Money Cult.

    http://www.blowoutcongress.com

    With Out Borders and Control of those Borders you do not have a country in need of a Constitution..

    Act Up.

    Vote


  8. NoThreat2U
    8 | February 16, 2011 11:47 am

    @ Speranza:
    My Dad got his mesothelioma being in the Navy also. Boilertender.


  9. Speranza
    9 | February 16, 2011 11:47 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Yeah, I don’t think I could handle that myself. I had an arm torn up in a car wreck, and that was traumatic enough. Losing the limb would be awful. Unfortunately, that is what a lot of mines and IEDs are designed to do.

    Quite correct. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong used to design booby traps not to kill but to maim.


  10. NoThreat2U
    10 | February 16, 2011 11:48 am

    @ Iron Fist:
    My big bro got lucky. He was in close proximity when an IED went off. He ended up with a hole blown through his calf. Now there is this big dent due to the missing tissue. Still got the leg and use of it though thank God.


  11. Speranza
    11 | February 16, 2011 11:48 am

    During the Civil war so many solider suffered the horrors of amputations and after wards you got sent home with no training and no prospects of being able to make a life for your self.


  12. Speranza
    12 | February 16, 2011 11:49 am

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Iron Fist:
    My big bro got lucky. He was in close proximity when an IED went off. He ended up with a hole blown through his calf. Now there is this big dent due to the missing tissue. Still got the leg and use of it though thank God.

    Very fortunate indeed!


  13. NoThreat2U
    13 | February 16, 2011 11:52 am

    @ Speranza:
    All he remembers is hearing that the Gunny was down, until he tried to stand up and realized it was him. Of course they also drive over those damn IEDs too. Blew up a few vehicles he was in. The Marines just sit there and laugh about it. Not funny at all to me. No one over there is worth dying for IMO.


  14. Speranza
    14 | February 16, 2011 11:53 am

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    All he remembers is hearing that the Gunny was down, until he tried to stand up and realized it was him. Of course they also drive over those damn IEDs too. Blew up a few vehicles he was in. The Marines just sit there and laugh about it. Not funny at all to me. No one over there is worth dying for IMO.

    I would take enemy prisoners and sympathizers and use them as shields. Liberal outrage be damned!


  15. 15 | February 16, 2011 11:54 am

    @ Speranza:

    Yeah, we really can’t comprehend war on the scale of the Civil War, here in the US at any rate. The dead and wounded were whole families. Saving Private Ryan is a good flick, and was a good policy move when it was done for real, but there were lots of families that sent all the men away and no one came home. On the Indian side of my family we know of two brothers who went to fight. One went with the Union, one with the Confederacy, and neither came home. No one even knows where their graves might be.


  16. NoThreat2U
    16 | February 16, 2011 11:55 am

    @ Speranza:
    Agreed. Make one of them walk a few feet in front of our men just in case. It’ll get them first. I am being so mean about this, but after ten years and numerous deployments that left my daughter in tears, I don’t care about over there anymore. He has done more than enough.


  17. 17 | February 16, 2011 11:57 am

    @ NoThreat2U:

    We should have cleansed Afghanistan with fire after 9-11. We didn’t try and sort out the “innocent” Germans and Japanese after Pearl Harbor, did we? You fight a war to win. There is no higher objective than victory.


  18. Speranza
    18 | February 16, 2011 11:59 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:
    We should have cleansed Afghanistan with fire after 9-11. We didn’t try and sort out the “innocent” Germans and Japanese after Pearl Harbor, did we? You fight a war to win. There is no higher objective than victory.

    The day after 9/11/01 -- Afghanistan should have been obliterated.


  19. lobo91
    19 | February 16, 2011 12:00 pm

    @ Speranza:

    I would take enemy prisoners and sympathizers and use them as shields. Liberal outrage be damned!

    And you’d end up spending the rest of your life in Leavenworth for doing it.


  20. Speranza
    20 | February 16, 2011 12:00 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Agreed. Make one of them walk a few feet in front of our men just in case. It’ll get them first. I am being so mean about this, but after ten years and numerous deployments that left my daughter in tears, I don’t care about over there anymore. He has done more than enough.

    You are being realistic and not nearly as cruel as what they would do to us if they could.


  21. NoThreat2U
    21 | February 16, 2011 12:00 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    Again, agreed. You cannot be nice to those who want to kill you. They have lived this way for centuries. A decade or two of trying to civilize them is not going to work. I have just had it. I don’t think we should even try anymore. They wanna live that way? Fine with me…just keep it over there. End immigration from muslim countries. Maybe that will embolden those who really want their countries to change. We force them to live among those who are treating them like shit and maybe they will rise up and bring about change on their own. No change from the blood of my brother or cousins or friends of my children.


  22. Speranza
    22 | February 16, 2011 12:01 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    And you’d end up spending the rest of your life in Leavenworth for doing it.

    Not if people in the platoon kept their mouths shut. Better to be judged by 12 yadda yadda.


  23. Speranza
    23 | February 16, 2011 12:02 pm

    @ lobo91:
    No cameras, no record and no proof! But I tell you what -- you can drive over the roads there if you want to.


  24. 24 | February 16, 2011 12:03 pm

    Well, This could get interesting:

    Israel is monitoring two Iranian warships about to pass through the Suez Canal for Syria and warn they might act.

    Israeli’s Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman says that “Israel cannot ignore these provocations,” according to ynetnews.com.

    Lieberman added that the warships was “a provocation that proves Iran’s nerve and self-esteem is growing from day to day.”

    Iran announced plans to deploy warships near Israel and dock at a Syrian port for a year, IsraelNationalNews.com reports.

    A senior Israeli official tells the site that “Israel will know how to deal with it.”

    I hate to quote the whole thing, but it is short and to the point. I wonder which side will cave? I can’t see either side really wanting war over this, but somebody has to back down…


  25. NoThreat2U
    25 | February 16, 2011 12:03 pm

    @ Speranza:
    I don’t like feeling so hateful. I realize there are probably women who don’t appreciate having to live the way they do over there. But they need to throw off their oppressors. Even if they were all trying to help themselves over there, I wouldn’t mind the US backing them up. But damn, we are doing everything. We give them money, food. You name it. They just sit around waiting for the handouts. It frustrates me. We cant change it for them. They have to want it to change. Be a real martyr for your cause, not for allah.


  26. 26 | February 16, 2011 12:03 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Hey, see my last post to you in the previous thread… :mrgreen:


  27. 27 | February 16, 2011 12:05 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    I think when the next great conflageration comes around, America may be more hesitant than in the past to spill her blood for the benefit of others. I could be wrong about that, but that is the sense I get when I talk to people.


  28. lobo91
    28 | February 16, 2011 12:06 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    No cameras, no record and no proof! But I tell you what – you can drive over the roads there if you want to.

    There’s no such thing as “no cameras” today, even in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    One of the things I tell every group of NCOs I train for deployment over there is that they should assume that anything they do is going to end up on the front page of the NY Times, and act accordingly.


  29. NoThreat2U
    29 | February 16, 2011 12:07 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    I sure hope so. It is time for us to worry about the US first. We cant be of any help to anyone anywhere if we can’t even take care of ourselves.


  30. 30 | February 16, 2011 12:08 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    They just sit around waiting for the handouts.

    Well sort of, but not in the way you are thinking, they are Muslims, and like all Muslims they believe Allah placed us infidels on the earth to provide for their needs. We owe them because they are the superior beings by virtue of their Islamic faith, (That and their Arab supremacist ideology) and that is how it really is. You cannot defeat an enemy you cannot or refuse to identify.


  31. m
    31 | February 16, 2011 12:10 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    She created an account yesterday and will pop on the thread I think. She’s a friend of Urban Infidel’s so well… she’s gottan IN!

    lol


  32. NoThreat2U
    32 | February 16, 2011 12:11 pm

    @ doriangrey:
    Then it is up to us to correct them of that notion. We don’t owe them shit…no matter what their moon god says. I get what you are saying though, and you are right. To them, we owe them. Frak that.


  33. NoThreat2U
    33 | February 16, 2011 12:12 pm

    @ m:
    Good afternoon Miss M. And how are we today?


  34. chickadee
    34 | February 16, 2011 12:12 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:

    I think when the next great conflageration comes around, America may be more hesitant than in the past to spill her blood for the benefit of others. I could be wrong about that, but that is the sense I get when I talk to people.

    Fighting wars to win muzz hearts and minds is absurd. Look at those animals that attacked and sexually assaulted the newswoman in egypt. We need to write the m.e. off. They are joyously going backwards as fast as they can and trying to drag us with them. Let them kill each other and when they try to attack us or our allies, we drop the big one. Deport all the muzz here. Put them where they will be happy, in their own filthy islamic holes.
    We shouldn’t risk American lives for these animals. If they want to reach out and join humanity in the civilized world, fine, otherwise keep them contained geographically in their own self-imposed prison of islam.


  35. 35 | February 16, 2011 12:13 pm

    @ taxfreekiller:

    Keery just will not go away. I can’t stand him!


  36. 36 | February 16, 2011 12:14 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Yup!


  37. NoThreat2U
    37 | February 16, 2011 12:14 pm

    This is way OT, but I read this earlier at Malkins. It has been on my mind all morning. Let me ask, who here wouldn’t have busted down the door and beat this woman senseless for what she did??

    LifeSiteNews.com, Feb. 14, described the details of a recently obtained 2008 police report documenting the case of a pregnant teen who was held hostage by a staff member at a Kennewick, Washington, Planned Parenthood facility.
    The unnamed 14-year-old, 22 weeks pregnant, was held by staffer Andrea Smasne at the facility against the wishes of her father and against police directives. Because the baby’s father was a 20-year-old under police investigation for sexual misconduct, the pregnancy was considered statutory rape, meaning her father was responsible for her.

    But Smasne saw it differently. The staffer continued to refuse the father access to his daughter, claiming the girl was afraid of him, until Officer Wayne Meyer intervened. When he asked Smasne to release the girl, he was told she was “emancipated.”
    Meyer said,

    I then asked Smasne how old the patient was. She advised the female patient was 14 yoa. I then asked why they would tell the father he had to leave if his juvenile age daughter was there. At that point Smasne stated that once the juvenile is pregnant, the juvenile is emancipated, and further stated the father had no right to be present if the patient did not want him there.

    He then contacted the City Attorney’s office to verify the emancipation question and was told “A Juvenile is not emancipated simply by becoming pregnant” and further, “becoming emancipated required a Court process.” The attorney also advised a criminal investigation of Planned Parenthood if such documentation couldn’t be provided.


  38. 38 | February 16, 2011 12:15 pm

    m wrote:

    @ Iron Fist:
    She created an account yesterday and will pop on the thread I think. She’s a friend of Urban Infidel’s so well… she’s gottan IN!
    lol

    Hmmm, I’m suspicious of females with the last name Peterson…. :shock: Once dated one in college, she was cute, but crazy as all get out, from Taxachuettes too… Different fist name, but still…. :twisted::lol: :lol: :lol:


  39. chickadee
    39 | February 16, 2011 12:15 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    @ taxfreekiller:

    Keery just will not go away. I can’t stand him!

    He has no where to go. He is an old gigolo with a hip replacement.


  40. 40 | February 16, 2011 12:15 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Israel should take them out.


  41. NoThreat2U
    41 | February 16, 2011 12:15 pm

    @ chickadee:
    Their hearts are black. This isn’t the friggin Grinch. There hearts will not change just because. lol lol As to their minds…who wants to win that? Their minds are filled with allah. There is no room in there for anything else.


  42. 42 | February 16, 2011 12:16 pm

    @ lobo91:

    What would happen if lets say in the future, we have a government that doesn’t care about these things and turns a blind eye. Would that be different then?


  43. lobo91
    43 | February 16, 2011 12:17 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Iron Fist wrote:
    @ Speranza:
    Yeah, I don’t think I could handle that myself. I had an arm torn up in a car wreck, and that was traumatic enough. Losing the limb would be awful. Unfortunately, that is what a lot of mines and IEDs are designed to do.
    Quite correct. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong used to design booby traps not to kill but to maim.

    We’ve done the same. Anti-personnel mines are designed to incapacitate, rather than kill, because an incapacitated soldier takes at least two more out of the fight in order to carry him to safety.


  44. mfhorn
    44 | February 16, 2011 12:17 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    Lucky man. Thank him for his service.


  45. NoThreat2U
    45 | February 16, 2011 12:18 pm

    @ mfhorn:
    Will do :)


  46. 46 | February 16, 2011 12:19 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    One of the things I tell every group of NCOs I train for deployment over there is that they should assume that anything they do is going to end up on the front page of the NY Times, and act accordingly.

    That is 100% right. Hell, you can’t tell who is videoing you these days, and they can upload it to YouTube from Kandahar and it can go viral without any MFM organization touching it. That is going to get worse, not better. With terrorists, it is best to assume that they are videotaping any incident for the propaganda value of it. The propagana war is simply a different part of the battlespace. One that we really aren’t fighting in. Calling Islam the Religion of Peace™ and going on about how great it is just makes us look weak in the eyes of our target audience. What we need is a patriotic Hollywood that would analyse our target audience and make for us the propaganda to sway them in our favor. That wouldn’t win the war, but it sure would be better than what we have going on now.


  47. lobo91
    47 | February 16, 2011 12:19 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    What would happen if lets say in the future, we have a governmnet that doesn’t care about these things and turns a blind eye. Would that be different then?

    Not really.

    You’re talking about things athat are violations of the UCMJ, for one thing.


  48. 48 | February 16, 2011 12:19 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Gotcha, just asking.


  49. chickadee
    49 | February 16, 2011 12:20 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ chickadee:
    Their hearts are black. This isn’t the friggin Grinch. There hearts will not change just because. lol lol As to their minds…who wants to win that? Their minds are filled with allah. There is no room in there for anything else.

    The more we do for them the less they respect us.


  50. 50 | February 16, 2011 12:20 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Hollywood supports Islam. They view it as a 3rd World Liberation force.


  51. lobo91
    51 | February 16, 2011 12:21 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    That is 100% right. Hell, you can’t tell who is videoing you these days, and they can upload it to YouTube from Kandahar and it can go viral without any MFM organization touching it.

    And it could very well be one of your own people doing it.

    Does the name Bradley Manning ring a bell?


  52. 52 | February 16, 2011 12:21 pm

    @ Rodan:

    I agree, but I bet she backs down if the Iranins have the stones to push it. Israel is getting leaned on by everybody. She is in a bind, moreso with the instability in Egypt. Iran knows this. From the Iranian side, they would be foolish to ignore the oppertunities presented by these circumstances.


  53. lobo91
    53 | February 16, 2011 12:22 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Gotcha, just asking.

    The bottom line is, there are some things that we don’t do. Just because they would, doesn’t mean that we will.

    We’re better than that.


  54. NoThreat2U
    54 | February 16, 2011 12:23 pm

    @ chickadee:
    Yep. My words to them would be if you wanna live like this….good luck. Don’t call the US when the shit hits the fan. Screw you guys, I’m going home. lol


  55. Speranza
    55 | February 16, 2011 12:23 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    She sold sink them with submarines and not say a word about it.


  56. 56 | February 16, 2011 12:24 pm

    @ Rodan:

    Yeah, I was taling about what we need, not what exists. Also, our own government seems in league with enemy propagandists. Look at what Dick Durbin (D-al Qaeda) and Ted Kennedy did over Abu GrabAss and all. John fucking Kerry. *spit* Just saying his name leaves my mouth slimey. Traitors, all, but given free reiegn and paid for with your tax dollars. No wonder we are losing.


  57. 57 | February 16, 2011 12:24 pm

    chickadee wrote:

    Iron Fist wrote:
    @ NoThreat2U:
    I think when the next great conflageration comes around, America may be more hesitant than in the past to spill her blood for the benefit of others. I could be wrong about that, but that is the sense I get when I talk to people.

    Fighting wars to win muzz hearts and minds is absurd. Look at those animals that attacked and sexually assaulted the newswoman in egypt. We need to write the m.e. off. They are joyously going backwards as fast as they can and trying to drag us with them. Let them kill each other and when they try to attack us or our allies, we drop the big one. Deport all the muzz here. Put them where they will be happy, in their own filthy islamic holes.
    We shouldn’t risk American lives for these animals. If they want to reach out and join humanity in the civilized world, fine, otherwise keep them contained geographically in their own self-imposed prison of islam.

    I got roundly criticized yesterday for admitting that I had no sympathy or compassion for that reporter. People assumed I was saying that she deserved what happened to her, I was not saying or implying anything like that. That said.

    Our Fifth Column Treasonous Media are deceiving the American General Public with regards to who Muslims are and what they believe, the blame cannot be laid solely at the Muslims feet when our own Fifth Column Treasonous Media intentionally refuse to inform the public regarding what the Muslims believe and the extent that they act on those beliefs.

    What the individuals in the crowd did to that CBS reporter was 100 percent within the doctrine and ideology spelled out in the Koran. Those men were not acting in a manner inconsistent with the teaching of Islam, it really is that simple.


  58. NoThreat2U
    58 | February 16, 2011 12:24 pm

    @ lobo91:
    I’ll have to remember to tell my friend Barb and her two little boys when she goes to visit her husband’s grave to be happy because he was better than they were.


  59. Speranza
    59 | February 16, 2011 12:24 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    We’re better than that.

    That wold be great consolation to the maimed men or dead soldiers families. We do not need to prove that we are better then them, we jsut are.


  60. 60 | February 16, 2011 12:24 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Yep. That would be best. Look around and whistle if anybody asks. Musta been seamonsters got them…


  61. Speranza
    61 | February 16, 2011 12:25 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    I’ll have to remember to tell my friend Barb and her two little boys when she goes to visit her husband’s grave to be happy because he was better than they were.

    Agreed!


  62. Speranza
    62 | February 16, 2011 12:26 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Yep. That would be best. Look around and whistle if anybody asks. Musta been seamonsters got them…

    That’s what I would do. Claim they entered Israeli territorial waters and were “spies”.


  63. NoThreat2U
    63 | February 16, 2011 12:27 pm

    @ Speranza:
    I wonder why I feel so mean today? Seriously. I think I need to get out of the house.


  64. m
    64 | February 16, 2011 12:29 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    But damn, we are doing everything. We give them money, food. You name it. They just sit around waiting for the handouts.

    While claiming America just came to kill all of their children.


  65. 65 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    because an incapacitated soldier takes at least two more out of the fight in order to carry him to safety.

    But only when you are dealing with a opponent that views the life of their soldier as worth saving, it doesn’t work so good when your enemy believes that his reward for dying while fighting you is 72 rooms each filled with 72 virgins.


  66. lobo91
    66 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    I’ll have to remember to tell my friend Barb and her two little boys when she goes to visit her husband’s grave to be happy because he was better than they were.

    I suggest that you ask your brother about “honor” sometime. He’s a Marine. They get it.

    Maybe he can explain it to you.


  67. m
    67 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    Hey huneybunch! I’m doing well, thanks for asking! How about yourself?


  68. Poteen
    68 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    OT re; Lara Logan. Read RSM. Then read Iceweasel’s page on the same article.

    RSM here


  69. NoThreat2U
    69 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    @ m:
    Dont forget we also rape their women and sterlize their men with vaccines. I would treat them the same way I treated my kids when they acted stupid. You don’t want the medicine? OK, remember not to cry to me when you are sick and dying. lol lol


  70. 70 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    @ m:

    Were it up to me, I’d cut off All aid to the Third World. We are borrowing that money from China, anyway. If the Chinese want to help Africa, more power to them, but our turn in that particular barrel is done.


  71. NoThreat2U
    71 | February 16, 2011 12:30 pm

    @ m:
    I feel mean today. I think I need to get out for a bit. lol lol


  72. lobo91
    72 | February 16, 2011 12:31 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    We don’t use AP mines anymore, anyway, so it’s not really an issue in the current fight.

    I was just pointing out that it’s a valid military tactic.


  73. 73 | February 16, 2011 12:32 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Have they taken the Claymore out of service? How sad


  74. NoThreat2U
    74 | February 16, 2011 12:32 pm

    @ lobo91:
    He has explained it to me because I say the same thing to him all the time. The only difference is, I don’t have to live by his code of honor since I am not a Marine. I choose to be an angry mean bitch about all of this. He is confined by rules and standards whereas I can say what I want.


  75. chickadee
    75 | February 16, 2011 12:34 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:

    We’re better than that.

    That wold be great consolation to the maimed men or dead soldiers families. We do not need to prove that we are better then them, we jsut are.

    I’m not comfortable with the “we’re better than them” meme either. I like the idea of it and feel it is a noble idea but as the danger to our country increases, I lean towards doing WHATEVER it takes to quell the savages and stay alive.


  76. lobo91
    76 | February 16, 2011 12:34 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Have they taken the Claymore out of service? How sad…

    We can still use them, as long as they’re command-detonated (no trip wires, though).

    Claymores weren’t what I was talking about, though. Those don’t “maim” people, generally. They tend to leave a pink mist…


  77. 77 | February 16, 2011 12:34 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    we jsut are.

    No… Just claiming we are makes us no better than them, because they also claim to be better than us. No, we genuinely have to have a provable justification to make that claim. Otherwise that claim is just another form of ideological supremacist bullshit.


  78. 78 | February 16, 2011 12:34 pm

    The Irony of this is priceless:

    Feingold forms PAC to boost liberal candidates, fight corporate influence
    By Michael O’Brien -- 02/16/11 07:45 AM ET

    Former Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) on Wednesday announced the formation of a new liberal political group meant to boost liberal candidates and combat corporate influence in politics.

    Feingold, the three-term former senator and liberal stalwart, said he had formed Progressives United, a full-service action group with its own political action committee (PAC).

    “We’re starting a new organization, Progressives United, that will help us fight back,” Feingold said in a Web video announcing the group. “We’ll work to ensure that our elected officials, both Republicans and Democratic, are held accountable to the people, and not to the lobbyists in Washington. We’ll call out the media, when they hide from the real story. And we’ll support candidates when they uphold our progressive ideals, even if the Beltway establishment doesn’t.”

    Yeah, man, fight tha Power! With, um, power…


  79. lobo91
    79 | February 16, 2011 12:35 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    He is confined by rules and standards whereas I can say what I want.

    He chooses to be “confined” by those standards. So do I.

    So does everyone else who chooses to put on the uniform.


  80. NoThreat2U
    80 | February 16, 2011 12:36 pm

    @ chickadee:
    We are some brutal chicks on this forum. lol lol COuld you imagine them trying to put us in burkhas?????? lol


  81. lobo91
    81 | February 16, 2011 12:36 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    Speranza wrote:
    we jsut are.
    No… Just claiming we are makes us no better than them, because they also claim to be better than us. No, we genuinely have to have a provable justification to make that claim. Otherwise that claim is just another form of ideological supremacist bullshit.

    Exactly.


  82. m
    82 | February 16, 2011 12:36 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Those men were not acting in a manner inconsistent with the teaching of Islam, it really is that simple.

    Apparently the group of women and 20 Egyptian soldiers were. Thank goodness.


  83. NoThreat2U
    83 | February 16, 2011 12:36 pm

    @ lobo91:
    I know that and I understand it. Doesn’t mean I have to like it though.


  84. KristaPeterson
    84 | February 16, 2011 12:37 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    doriangrey wrote:

    m wrote:
    @ Iron Fist:
    She created an account yesterday and will pop on the thread I think. She’s a friend of Urban Infidel’s so well… she’s gottan IN!
    lol

    Hmmm, I’m suspicious of females with the last name Peterson…. Once dated one in college, she was cute, but crazy as all get out, from Taxachuettes too… Different fist name, but still…. …

    No need to be suspicious of me! :)


  85. lobo91
    85 | February 16, 2011 12:38 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    And we’ll just ignore the amount of corporate money that goes to fund left-wing causes…


  86. 86 | February 16, 2011 12:38 pm

    @ chickadee:

    I’m not better than them. I’m Johnny Hobbes’ fucking State of Nature made flesh, nasty, mean, brutish, and all that shit. Even the “poor” and “short” provisions :P Do unto others before they do unto you is the comandment, Victory is the only goal. The only reason not to nerve gas the lot of them is that nerve gas drifts downwind and the propaganda value it has to the enemy. That doesn’t mean we don’t nerve gas them, just consider if it will move us towards victory or take us back from it. Everything should be on the table.


  87. NoThreat2U
    87 | February 16, 2011 12:39 pm

    @ KristaPeterson:
    Welcome Krista. Please pardon our ADD…we tend to veer off in many directions on a post. Great post BTW :)


  88. 88 | February 16, 2011 12:40 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    The Irony of this is priceless:

    Feingold forms PAC to boost liberal candidates, fight corporate influence
    By Michael O’Brien – 02/16/11 07:45 AM ET
    Former Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) on Wednesday announced the formation of a new liberal political group meant to boost liberal candidates and combat corporate influence in politics.
    Feingold, the three-term former senator and liberal stalwart, said he had formed Progressives United, a full-service action group with its own political action committee (PAC).
    “We’re starting a new organization, Progressives United, that will help us fight back,” Feingold said in a Web video announcing the group. “We’ll work to ensure that our elected officials, both Republicans and Democratic, are held accountable to the people, and not to the lobbyists in Washington. We’ll call out the media, when they hide from the real story. And we’ll support candidates when they uphold our progressive ideals, even if the Beltway establishment doesn’t.”

    Yeah, man, fight tha Power! With, um, power…

    Heh heh heh, The Irony is even deeper than you think young Padawan… The organization is called… Progressives United… PU for short… And yes, they really do stink…. :twisted:


  89. Speranza
    89 | February 16, 2011 12:40 pm

    Someone comes at you with a knife to kill you but you chose to fight back only with your fists instead of a knife or gun because you do not want to break the law and want to fight fair and ultimately because you are better (and soon to be deader) then he is.


  90. 90 | February 16, 2011 12:40 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    WTF? Win The Future, of course… 8O


  91. m
    91 | February 16, 2011 12:41 pm

    @ KristaPeterson:

    … She says with her hands raised and teeth bared coming right atcha!!

    ;-)

    Welcome to The Blogmocracy!


  92. Speranza
    92 | February 16, 2011 12:41 pm

    KristaPeterson wrote:

    No need to be suspicious of me!

    Welcome and this is a timely thread.


  93. KristaPeterson
    93 | February 16, 2011 12:42 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    Thanks so much! I enjoy reading all your opinions even if it is a little off subject. That is exactly why I love to write!


  94. 94 | February 16, 2011 12:43 pm

    KristaPeterson wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    doriangrey wrote:
    m wrote:
    @ Iron Fist:
    She created an account yesterday and will pop on the thread I think. She’s a friend of Urban Infidel’s so well… she’s gottan IN!
    lol
    Hmmm, I’m suspicious of females with the last name Peterson…. Once dated one in college, she was cute, but crazy as all get out, from Taxachuettes too… Different fist name, but still…. …
    No need to be suspicious of me!

    <—- Closes one eye and squints at Krista, well, yer not from Taxachuettes are ya?


  95. Speranza
    95 | February 16, 2011 12:43 pm

    Every now and then I read about athletes from teams who skip going to team visits to Veterans hospitals. The Mets had one or two guys last year who skipped out. Pissed me off.


  96. KristaPeterson
    96 | February 16, 2011 12:44 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    No never been there!


  97. Speranza
    97 | February 16, 2011 12:44 pm

    KristaPeterson wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:
    Thanks so much! I enjoy reading all your opinions even if it is a little off subject. That is exactly why I love to write!

    The topic brings out comments and then people comment on the comments and we go all over the place.


  98. 98 | February 16, 2011 12:44 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Exactly. I am better trained than 99% of the people that walk the face of this earth, but if they start something, I am not going to access our relative strengths and weaknesses, and modify what I’ll do to fight fair. Fuck that. The only thing that saves their lives is complete and total submission almost immediately. Anything less, well, it is their resistance to my technique that does the damage. That is how I’ve been trained since I was a kid. And karate is what I use when you have gotten past my gun and knife. Do whatever is necessary. Never get yourself hurt sparring someone else the just consequences of their actions.


  99. 99 | February 16, 2011 12:45 pm

    @ KristaPeterson:

    Welcome! We don’t bite…much8O


  100. NoThreat2U
    100 | February 16, 2011 12:46 pm

    @ KristaPeterson:
    Most of us don’t stay on schedule with our ritalin. lol One subject always leads to another so never feel offended if we stray off topic some.


  101. Speranza
    101 | February 16, 2011 12:47 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Exactly. I am better trained than 99% of the people that walk the face of this earth, but if they start something, I am not going to access our relative strengths and weaknesses, and modify what I’ll do to fight fair. Fuck that. The only thing that saves their lives is complete and total submission almost immediately. Anything less, well, it is their resistance to my technique that does the damage. That is how I’ve been trained since I was a kid. And karate is what I use when you have gotten past my gun and knife. Do whatever is necessary. Never get yourself hurt sparring someone else the just consequences of their actions.

    A civilized fight only is possible if the both opponents are civilized, not just one. We shot German soldiers captured wearing American uniforms and we shot S.S. guards captured at Dachau concentration camp in Bavaria and never felt the need to explain or apologize. After the Malmedy Massacre of American soldiers, the word got out “Take no S.S. prisoners”.


  102. NoThreat2U
    102 | February 16, 2011 12:47 pm

    @ Speranza:
    I think that is good sometimes. It really broadens the conversation.


  103. Speranza
    103 | February 16, 2011 12:48 pm

    Anything less, well, it is their resistance to my technique that does the damage.

    In martial arts school I was taught that well executed technique is the answer to superior physical strength.


  104. Speranza
    104 | February 16, 2011 12:49 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    I think that is good sometimes. It really broadens the conversation.

    Oh I agree. We go onto subtopics of the original topics.


  105. Alberta Oil Peon
    105 | February 16, 2011 12:50 pm

    @ Speranza:
    Afghanistan didn’t really cause 9/11, it was just a refuge of choice for the perpetrators, nearly all of whom were Saudis.

    Nuking Mecca would have been a lot more appropriate; get at the root of the trouble.

    The Taliban are nasty assholes, no question about it, but their main objective is to victimize other Afghans.


  106. lobo91
    106 | February 16, 2011 12:50 pm

    @ Speranza:

    We shot German soldiers captured wearing American uniforms

    That was perfectly legal, and still is. If you’re wearing the enemy’s uniform, you’re considered a spy, and not entitled to any protections.


  107. NoThreat2U
    107 | February 16, 2011 12:50 pm

    @ Speranza:
    It shows how one thing always leads to another.


  108. chickadee
    108 | February 16, 2011 12:51 pm

    @ doriangrey:
    It was so naive of her to put herself in that predicament. The crowds in egypt were salivating, seething, rampaging men. All they saw when they looked at her was a blonde bimbo ripe for the taking. They didn’t see her as a freedom fighter there to help them. She was uncovered meat. Period.
    I bet her feelings are hurt today. I wonder if she learned anything. I wonder who she will blame? Could be that she will blame “white males” who cause muzz men to become so angry they have to attack western women.
    Notice, the mfm tried to cover this brutal assault up because it reflects so badly on their pets, the muzz.


  109. Speranza
    109 | February 16, 2011 12:52 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    I was taught “offense wins fights, you can stand around all day blocking his punches but you will not deter or stop him until you start landing punches and kicks of your own on him”.


  110. 110 | February 16, 2011 12:52 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Technique is the watchword. I have seen it phrased “The Cult of Technique”. Sometimes brute strength will overcome technique. You have to be flexible, and by that I don’t mean doin splits. Flow is what i was taught. If a technique fails, let it fail, and go on to something else. I love the martial arts. Nothing has been worse about my long illness than the way it has interfered with that.


  111. Speranza
    111 | February 16, 2011 12:53 pm

    chickadee wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    It was so naive of her to put herself in that predicament. The crowds in egypt were salivating, seething, rampaging men. All they saw when they looked at her was a blonde bimbo ripe for the taking. They didn’t see her as a freedom fighter there to help them. She was uncovered meat. Period.
    I bet her feelings are hurt today. I wonder if she learned anything. I wonder who she will blame? Could be that she will blame “white males” who cause muzz men to become so angry they have to attack western women.
    Notice, the mfm tried to cover this brutal assault up because it reflects so badly on their pets, the muzz.

    They saw an attractive western woman with blonde hair and thought “Hey why not?”


  112. Speranza
    112 | February 16, 2011 12:55 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Technique is the watchword. I have seen it phrased “The Cult of Technique”. Sometimes brute strength will overcome technique. You have to be flexible, and by that I don’t mean doin splits. Flow is what i was taught. If a technique fails, let it fail, and go on to something else. I love the martial arts. Nothing has been worse about my long illness than the way it has interfered with that.

    If someone is attacking you you have to assume that it is because they are physically stronger then you are so in a contest of strength v. strength you will probably lose. Attack the targets on them that they cannot strengthen no matter how big and strong they are such ss their temples, throats, balls, knee caps, eyes, etc.


  113. chickadee
    113 | February 16, 2011 12:56 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ chickadee:
    We are some brutal chicks on this forum. lol lol COuld you imagine them trying to put us in burkhas?????? lol

    No, I can’t imagine ever wearing muzz conquest garb. I love pretty clothes too much.
    fck the rop
    :)


  114. 114 | February 16, 2011 12:56 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Can’t see, can’t breathe, can’t move, can’t fight. Dead is good. Those were the watchwords in the circle in the dojo where I moved. Not every student moved in those circles. Most students didn’t. People don’t like to work with me because my techniques hurt. Pain is instructive. That doesn’t mean I blast the poor student with every move, but when I lock down a joint lock, they know someone has them. Most people in a dojo want a cool new way to do cardio. We can do that for you. But we taught much deeper if you wanted to learn and were considered suitable to teach.


  115. Alberta Oil Peon
    115 | February 16, 2011 12:56 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    The history of the sea is replete with incidents of ships that vanished without a trace. Rogue waves, storms at sea, collisions in the night, sea monsters?

    Maybe there’s a “Gaza Triangle”. If not, the could be.


  116. chickadee
    116 | February 16, 2011 12:57 pm

    @ KristaPeterson:
    Welcome {KristaPeterson},
    So nice to see you.
    Great post. What an important topic.


  117. 117 | February 16, 2011 12:58 pm

    Alberta Oil Peon wrote:

    Maybe there’s a “Gaza Triangle”. If not, the could be.

    I like the way you think :evil:


  118. 118 | February 16, 2011 12:58 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Someone comes at you with a knife to kill you but you chose to fight back only with your fists instead of a knife or gun because you do not want to break the law and want to fight fair and ultimately because you are better (and soon to be deader) then he is.

    Now you are just plain being ridiculous. Using prisoners as human shields isnt even remotely analogous. We do not commit atrocities or turn a blind eye to them being committed by our people. It doesn’t matter how horrible our enemies are, we do not stoop to that level of barbarism.

    We are not talking about a back ally brawl where what ever weapon you can lay your hands on decides who lives or dies. What we are talking about is fighting off a savage horde without becoming even greater monsters than the horde we are fighting off.

    Yes, it can be done, yes we can do it, yes we are doing it. If we sacrifice our honor and our principals defending ourselves against the Muslim hordes we might as well just commit genocide against them and when we are finished go on to conquer the entire world by military force, because that’s what we will have reduced ourselves to. Nothing but a merciless ruthless conquest based amoral society. All hail the new Roman Empire, Pax Americana.


  119. Speranza
    119 | February 16, 2011 12:58 pm

    Alberta Oil Peon wrote:

    Afghanistan didn’t really cause 9/11, it was just a refuge of choice for the perpetrators, nearly all of whom were Saudis.

    Afghanistan was hosting alQaeda so they enabled the 9/11 attacks.


  120. NoThreat2U
    120 | February 16, 2011 12:58 pm

    @ chickadee:
    They will get my heels when they pry them from my cold dead hands. lol lol


  121. 121 | February 16, 2011 12:59 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    All hail the new Roman Empire, Pax Americana.

    You say that like it would be a bad thing…


  122. Speranza
    122 | February 16, 2011 1:00 pm

    @ doriangrey:
    Don’t tell me I am being ridiculous. In war soldiers always do what is needed to survive. Their loyalty under fire is not to their country or to their president but is to their comrades and they do not consult the Articles of War while under attack.


  123. 123 | February 16, 2011 1:01 pm

    KristaPeterson wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    No never been there!

    Oh… Well in that case, welcome aboard little lady… :mrgreen:


  124. chickadee
    124 | February 16, 2011 1:01 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    I agree.
    If the enemy has the same moral code as we do, that’s one thing but I don’t give a shit abt being better than a horde of rabid savages.


  125. lobo91
    125 | February 16, 2011 1:01 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Now you are just plain being ridiculous. Using prisoners as human shields isnt even remotely analogous. We do not commit atrocities or turn a blind eye to them being committed by our people. It doesn’t matter how horrible our enemies are, we do not stoop to that level of barbarism.

    And the reason we don’t do those things isn’t just because of fear that someone will find out, which is something a lot of people here will never understand.


  126. 126 | February 16, 2011 1:02 pm

    @ Speranza:

    The Taliban and al Qaeda were, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable. In World War Two, we didn’t distinguish between civillians in Dresden and the Nazi leadership in Dresden. We certinly didn’t bother with sorting the SS from the Waffen SS from the SA while the bullets were flying. It was insane from the start to expect us to do so in Afghanistan.


  127. Speranza
    127 | February 16, 2011 1:02 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    You say that like it would be a bad thing…

    Yeah like all the Pax Americana did was just rebuild Western Europe and Japan.


  128. lobo91
    128 | February 16, 2011 1:03 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Afghanistan was hosting alQaeda so they enabled the 9/11 attacks.

    “Afghanistan” was even less of a country then than it is today.

    The Taliban was hosting al Qaeda, not “Afghanistan.”


  129. 129 | February 16, 2011 1:03 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    doriangrey wrote:
    All hail the new Roman Empire, Pax Americana.
    You say that like it would be a bad thing…

    He’s right -- it would be.


  130. Speranza
    130 | February 16, 2011 1:04 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    The Taliban and al Qaeda were, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable. In World War Two, we didn’t distinguish between civillians in Dresden and the Nazi leadership in Dresden. We certinly didn’t bother with sorting the SS from the Waffen SS from the SA while the bullets were flying. It was insane from the start to expect us to do so in Afghanistan.

    The Taliban need to know that they cannot have it both ways, enable al Qaeda and yet not share in the inevitable retribution for al Qaeda atrocities.


  131. 131 | February 16, 2011 1:04 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    We shot German soldiers captured wearing American uniforms
    That was perfectly legal, and still is. If you’re wearing the enemy’s uniform, you’re considered a spy, and not entitled to any protections.

    Yup, Geneva Convention (which I generally have little use for) defines it as Perfidy, and allows any individual engaging in perfidy to be summarily executed on the spot.


  132. NoThreat2U
    132 | February 16, 2011 1:04 pm

    Tonite on Nat Geo…

    Tonight, hear the dramatic and emotional story of 11 African-American soldiers who were brutally murdered by the SS in Wereth, Belgium just two days into the Battle of the Bulge.


  133. Speranza
    133 | February 16, 2011 1:05 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Afghanistan was hosting alQaeda so they enabled the 9/11 attacks.
    “Afghanistan” was even less of a country then than it is today.
    The Taliban was hosting al Qaeda, not “Afghanistan.”

    Whatever


  134. 134 | February 16, 2011 1:05 pm

    @ chickadee:

    The Geneva Conventions were only supposed to apply to honorable combatants that kept to them. They don’t apply to savages that fly planes into civillian buildings and cut the heads off of helpless reporters. Trying to live up to them while giving the Enemy carte blanche to violate them is nuts.


  135. lobo91
    135 | February 16, 2011 1:05 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    It was insane from the start to expect us to do so in Afghanistan.

    What is insane is suggesting that we should have incinerated tens of millions of people because they happened to live in hovels somewhere within a few hundred miles of a terrorist camp.


  136. Speranza
    136 | February 16, 2011 1:06 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:
    Thanks for the heads up Nothreat2u. As I said earlier, we shot S.S. prisoners on the spot after the Malmedy Massacre.


  137. Speranza
    137 | February 16, 2011 1:07 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ chickadee:
    The Geneva Conventions were only supposed to apply to honorable combatants that kept to them. They don’t apply to savages that fly planes into civillian buildings and cut the heads off of helpless reporters. Trying to live up to them while giving the Enemy carte blanche to violate them is nuts.

    It is a prescription for needless deaths of men from your own side.


  138. lobo91
    138 | February 16, 2011 1:07 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Whatever

    Now there’s a well-reasoned argument…
    //


  139. 139 | February 16, 2011 1:07 pm

    @ Mike C.:

    I certainly don’t see that. The Barbarians need to become civilized, or we need to do away with the barbarians. Same as it ever was. The old Pax Romana was pretty good for its time, too. We can do better, though, if we will.


  140. NoThreat2U
    140 | February 16, 2011 1:08 pm

    @ Speranza:
    I figured someone here might find that interesting to watch.


  141. Speranza
    141 | February 16, 2011 1:08 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    The Taliban and al Qaeda were, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable. In World War Two, we didn’t distinguish between civillians in Dresden and the Nazi leadership in Dresden. We certinly didn’t bother with sorting the SS from the Waffen SS from the SA while the bullets were flying. It was insane from the start to expect us to do so in Afghanistan.

    And after Pearl harbor we did not issue an arrest warrant for Admiral Yamamoto.


  142. Speranza
    142 | February 16, 2011 1:09 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    I figured someone here might find that interesting to watch.

    You figured right -- me (at least).


  143. 143 | February 16, 2011 1:10 pm

    @ lobo91:

    There are only about 20 million in all of Afghanistan, and it would have been fewer than that. Still, every major population center should have been hit. Retributive power was built into our strategic capability for a purpose. If you aren’t willing to use it, you might as well not have it. That is what our nuclear deterrant is worth now. Nothing. Iran will probably show us that more graphically, by and by.


  144. Speranza
    144 | February 16, 2011 1:11 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Whatever
    Now there’s a well-reasoned argument…
    //

    Thanks Sarge. As if I cared for the difference whether Afghanistan hosted al Qaeda or the al Qaeda hosted Afghanistan They were both Muslim scumbags. ////


  145. 145 | February 16, 2011 1:12 pm

    @ Speranza:

    Germany only hosted the Nazis…


  146. 146 | February 16, 2011 1:12 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    The Taliban and al Qaeda were, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable. In World War Two, we didn’t distinguish between civillians in Dresden and the Nazi leadership in Dresden. We certinly didn’t bother with sorting the SS from the Waffen SS from the SA while the bullets were flying. It was insane from the start to expect us to do so in Afghanistan.

    What is somewhat noteworthy is that before bin Laden and his minions joined up the Taliban during their war with the Soviets, was that suicide bombing as a tactic was virtually unknown. The Tolly-ban was only interested in fighting, winning and returning to their poppy fields among other evil hobbies. They initially refused to the let Arabs into the fray because they were in a hurry to martyrdom. Looks like that’s all changed now.


  147. Guggi
    147 | February 16, 2011 1:13 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:
    Thanks for the heads up Nothreat2u. As I said earlier, we shot S.S. prisoners on the spot after the Malmedy Massacre.

    Hi Speranza *waving*

    Don’t you fear that such actions would backfire ? Next time they take US war prisoners or US civilian contract workers as their human shields. That’s why we have committed us to the Geneva Convention.


  148. NoThreat2U
    148 | February 16, 2011 1:13 pm

    @ Speranza:
    I love Nat Geo Channel. I was gonna cut down my cable package but there are just too many educational and informative channels I don’t want to go without. lol


  149. Alberta Oil Peon
    149 | February 16, 2011 1:13 pm

    @ Speranza:

    I have no problem with exterminating every last Taliban and every last Al Qaeda, but we should try to avoid needlessly killing ordinary Afghans, even if most of them are primitive savages.

    But both Al Qaeda and the Taliban ultimately take their marching orders from the black rock in the silver vagina. Throw the damn thing into the fires of Mt. Doom, figuratively speaking.


  150. lobo91
    150 | February 16, 2011 1:14 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    There are only about 20 million in all of Afghanistan, and it would have been fewer than that. Still, every major population center should have been hit. Retributive power was built into our strategic capability for a purpose. If you aren’t willing to use it, you might as well not have it. That is what our nuclear deterrant is worth now. Nothing. Iran will probably show us that more graphically, by and by.

    No US president who’s held office since the advent of nuclear weapons would have ordered an attack like that.


  151. 151 | February 16, 2011 1:14 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    Now you are just plain being ridiculous. Using prisoners as human shields isnt even remotely analogous. We do not commit atrocities or turn a blind eye to them being committed by our people. It doesn’t matter how horrible our enemies are, we do not stoop to that level of barbarism.
    And the reason we don’t do those things isn’t just because of fear that someone will find out, which is something a lot of people here will never understand.

    Yea, I know. While I was never in the military myself, I do come from a long line of American Military people. And not just single enlistment soldiers either, most of my family were career Military, quite a few officers in that history as well.

    There are things that fathers pass down to their sons, career military tend to pass down the idea’s of honor, integrity and loyalty. The emphasis they place on those words and the value they give them tends to be a bit different than those placed on them by the civilian population. I am not saying better or superior, just different.


  152. Nevergiveup
    152 | February 16, 2011 1:16 pm

    Afternoon all. Christie is talking on FOX live now.


  153. lobo91
    153 | February 16, 2011 1:16 pm

    @ Guggi:

    Don’t you fear that such actions would backfire ? Next time they take US war prisoners or US civilian contract workers as their human shields. That’s why we have committed us to the Geneva Convention.

    They already do that.

    We don’t adhere to the Geneva Conventions out of fear of retribution. We do so because it’s the right thing to do.


  154. chickadee
    155 | February 16, 2011 1:17 pm

    Guggi wrote:

    Speranza wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:
    Thanks for the heads up Nothreat2u. As I said earlier, we shot S.S. prisoners on the spot after the Malmedy Massacre.

    Hi Speranza *waving*

    Don’t you fear that such actions would backfire ? Next time they take US war prisoners or US civilian contract workers as their human shields. That’s why we have committed us to the Geneva Convention.

    Gug, they are doing the most horrible things now. Committing atrocities and not bound by any notions of honor from the Geneva Convention. We are fighting animals who use their own children as human shields, who put suicide bombs on 10 year olds. And when the muzz get an American or Israeli prisoner you don’t want to know what they do to them.


  155. NoThreat2U
    156 | February 16, 2011 1:17 pm

    I just love our Overseas Contingency Operations. Hopefully they will call my brother back up so he can participate in our fight to a draw.//////////


  156. 157 | February 16, 2011 1:18 pm

    @ Guggi:

    They started this war in an act of terrorism that killed 3,000 civillians. That is really only about ten percent of the casualties they intended to inflict. Hell, 100,000 p[eople worked, visited, and played at any given time in the Twin Towers. It was a target of zero military utility. It was an act of total war, and should have been replied to in kind. No, I don’t worry about them then wanting to do similar to us. Number one, if they get the capibility to do so they will, so being nuice to them is useless. Number two, if we followed my plan, a thousand years from now Afghanistan would be looked on in awe and fear the way Carthage has been for the last 2,000 years. The Carthaginians haven’t bothered anybody lately that I recall…


  157. Bureaucat
    158 | February 16, 2011 1:18 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:
    Wow! I wish I had Nat Geo.


  158. 159 | February 16, 2011 1:19 pm

    Since President Aliyev of Azerbaijan signed a decree which recognized the State of Fail-estine…

    Israel threatened Azerbaijan [that it would recognize Armenian-occupied enclave] recognize Nagorno-Karabakh

    Go for it, Israel! (I’m serious.)


  159. lobo91
    160 | February 16, 2011 1:19 pm

    @ Alberta Oil Peon:

    I have no problem with exterminating every last Taliban and every last Al Qaeda, but we should try to avoid needlessly killing ordinary Afghans, even if most of them are primitive savages.

    It’s not only needless, it’s pointless.

    99% of the people in Afghanistan couldn’t find America on a map. Hell, 99% of them have probably never seen a map.

    Killing millions of illiterate goat herders is a waste of time and resources.


  160. Guggi
    161 | February 16, 2011 1:19 pm

    @ lobo91:

    We do so because it’s the right thing to do.

    That’s my point because we live in a rule of law. We would sell everything we fought for.


  161. NoThreat2U
    162 | February 16, 2011 1:20 pm

    @ Bureaucat:
    I just love it! So sorry you don’t get it :( Maybe you can watch it online???


  162. chickadee
    163 | February 16, 2011 1:21 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    I just love our Overseas Contingency Operations. Hopefully they will call my brother back up so he can participate in our fight to a draw.//////////

    There is never a draw with the muzz, It’s called a hudna and they will be back to fight again when they regroup and gain strength. This enemy needs to be destroyed.


  163. 164 | February 16, 2011 1:22 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Aside from Reagan, I don’t have much use for any of the Presidents that have held the office since the advent of nuclear weapons. Most of them were venal and weak men. Eisenhower was better than that judgement, and so, too, was W, but even Saint JFK wasn’t worth a bucket of fresh piss. America has only survived this long because the system of government bequethed to us by our founders is stronget than any one man, or any one President. It has taken the actions of many Presidents, Republicans and Democrats, to bring us here where we may see the end of all of this.


  164. NoThreat2U
    165 | February 16, 2011 1:22 pm

    @ Bureaucat:
    See what you can find here….

    http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/player.html?channel=60850


  165. Macker
    166 | February 16, 2011 1:22 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:

    We should have cleansed Afghanistan with fire after 9-11. We didn’t try and sort out the “innocent” Germans and Japanese after Pearl Harbor, did we? You fight a war to win. There is no higher objective than victory.

    Well, if Pocky-STAWN wants to hold our diplomat in violation of International Law we can always start there.


  166. NoThreat2U
    167 | February 16, 2011 1:23 pm

    @ chickadee:
    ed. Hence the / tags ;)


  167. lobo91
    168 | February 16, 2011 1:23 pm

    Guggi wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    We do so because it’s the right thing to do.
    That’s my point because we live in a rule of law. We would sell everything we fought for.

    It’s ironic that someone from Europe understands America better than most of the Americans on here…


  168. 169 | February 16, 2011 1:23 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    They started this war in an act of terrorism that killed 3,000 civillians. That is really only about ten percent of the casualties they intended to inflict. Hell, 100,000 p[eople worked, visited, and played at any given time in the Twin Towers. It was a target of zero military utility. It was an act of total war, and should have been replied to in kind.

    9/11 was how the mujahideen repaid us for siding with them in Bosnia and Kosovo…well, after all, to quote Surah at-Taubah Ayah 29…


    Qatiloo allatheena la yuminoona biAllahi wala bialyawmi alakhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harrama Allahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqi mina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hatta yuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona

    Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


  169. chickadee
    170 | February 16, 2011 1:24 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:
    I was agreeing with you.
    :)


  170. lobo91
    171 | February 16, 2011 1:25 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Aside from Reagan, I don’t have much use for any of the Presidents that have held the office since the advent of nuclear weapons.

    I don’t either, but my point still stands.

    None of them, Reagan included, would have taken the action you advocate.


  171. 172 | February 16, 2011 1:25 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Killing millions of illiterate goat herders is a waste of time and resources.

    You misunderstand me. You don’t kill them simply because they are there. You simply kill them because the ones you need to kill are among them and there really is no way to distinguish them. You reduce them to nothing, becuse that is the consequences of an act like 9-11.


  172. NoThreat2U
    173 | February 16, 2011 1:26 pm

    @ lobo91:
    We understand it just fine. Like I said though, doesn’t mean we have to like it.

    @ chickadee:
    I know. lol It should have said agreed, but only the ed showed up.


  173. 174 | February 16, 2011 1:26 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Iron Fist:
    It was insane from the start to expect us to do so in Afghanistan.
    What is insane is suggesting that we should have incinerated tens of millions of people because they happened to live in hovels somewhere within a few hundred miles of a terrorist camp.

    I’m torn on that particular issue. Personally I don’t see any Muslim as innocent, but more as non-combative support personal, and I see them that way because that’s how they see themselves.

    I also see that had we nuked Afghanistan we would surely be suffering from the law of unintended consequences right now. Sadly I am afraid it will eventually come down to the Belmont Club’s Three Conjectures.


  174. 175 | February 16, 2011 1:26 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    None of them, Reagan included, would have taken the action you advocate.

    That doesn’t mean that it is the wrong action.


  175. buzzsawmonkey
    176 | February 16, 2011 1:29 pm

    Macker wrote:

    Well, if Pocky-STAWN wants to hold our diplomat in violation of International Law we can always start there.

    Change it from Pakistan to Big-Bang Ladesh?


  176. Nevergiveup
    177 | February 16, 2011 1:30 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:

    None of them, Reagan included, would have taken the action you advocate.

    That doesn’t mean that it is the wrong action.

    I missed this argument. I assume from the tone of things that someone suggested Nuking some Muslims somewhere? Like Lobo91 said, ain’t gonna happenn


  177. vagabond trader
    178 | February 16, 2011 1:31 pm

    Sadly,every war brings great advances in the prevention and treatment of traumatic injuries. This exercise in futility is no different.


  178. Guggi
    179 | February 16, 2011 1:31 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Guggi wrote:
    @ lobo91:
    We do so because it’s the right thing to do.
    That’s my point because we live in a rule of law. We would sell everything we fought for.
    It’s ironic that someone from Europe understands America better than most of the Americans on here…

    Merci beaucoup ! ;-)


  179. chickadee
    180 | February 16, 2011 1:31 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:

    Killing millions of illiterate goat herders is a waste of time and resources.

    You misunderstand me. You don’t kill them simply because they are there. You simply kill them because the ones you need to kill are among them and there really is no way to distinguish them. You reduce them to nothing, becuse that is the consequences of an act like 9-11.

    Well, if the ROE’s bind our hands to even kill the actual jihadis you know we can’t even think abt. muzz collateral damage.
    We’re doomed.


  180. 181 | February 16, 2011 1:33 pm

    If America were a business, this would mean it is time to sell her stock.


  181. lobo91
    182 | February 16, 2011 1:35 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    I’m torn on that particular issue. Personally I don’t see any Muslim as innocent, but more as non-combative support personal, and I see them that way because that’s how they see themselves.

    While that’s true, it’s also true that for about 90% of the world’s Muslims, it’s all theoretical. I don’t really care how many people living in some valley in Afghanistan think I should be killed as an infidel, as long as they’re halfway around the world and have no way to get here.

    I also see that had we nuked Afghanistan we would surely be suffering from the law of unintended consequences right now.

    I don’t even want to think about what things would be like today if we’d nuked Afghanistan. We’d be a pariah state. Some people don’t get the difference between the real world and a biker bar, though.

    Sadly I am afraid it will eventually come down to the Belmont Club’s Three Conjectures.

    It very well might.


  182. vagabond trader
    183 | February 16, 2011 1:35 pm

    I’m not for nuking anyone….yet.

    The hearts and minds strategy didn’t work in Nam ,why does anyone think it’ll work in an arguably more hostile situation.


  183. 184 | February 16, 2011 1:36 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:

    Not, at least until they nuke us first. If we don’;t collapse internally, nuclear terrorism is just about inevitible. How close to inevitible depends mainly on how close Iran is to working weapons. We’re certainly not going to do anything to stop them or give them any reason to believe our reaction would be any different than our reaction to 9-11. That isn’t sufficient to deter them from doing anything that the can.


  184. 185 | February 16, 2011 1:38 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    We’d be a pariah state.

    Bullshit. People still do business with China. People still do business with Iran. And we’d still be the money player in the world. People would still do business with us. What they wouldn’t do, ever again, is allow terrorist training camps in their territory or even the hint that anything that they are doing is a threat to American civillians.


  185. Nevergiveup
    186 | February 16, 2011 1:39 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Nevergiveup:

    Not, at least until they nuke us first. If we don’;t collapse internally, nuclear terrorism is just about inevitible. How close to inevitible depends mainly on how close Iran is to working weapons. We’re certainly not going to do anything to stop them or give them any reason to believe our reaction would be any different than our reaction to 9-11. That isn’t sufficient to deter them from doing anything that the can.

    Yeah your probably right. But when your dealing with people who don’t care if they, or their children, live or die, your kinda between a rock and a hard place. Which is Why, places like Iran and Pakistan should not be allowed to have WMDs. Will it take us losing a US City to make us to something? Probably.


  186. chickadee
    187 | February 16, 2011 1:40 pm

    vagabond trader wrote:

    I’m not for nuking anyone….yet.

    The hearts and minds strategy didn’t work in Nam ,why does anyone think it’ll work in an arguably more hostile situation.

    Yes, nukes have to stay on the table as an option. Certainly with the m.e. going nuts.

    If anyone had hopes for the ‘hearts and minds’ strategy, they should realize now that it is not working.


  187. 188 | February 16, 2011 1:40 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Sadly I am afraid it will eventually come down to the Belmont Club’s Three Conjectures.

    It very well might.

    That’s why I am torn on this issue, if it does go to conjecture two ( and I honestly cannot see it not going there), we would have been far better off going right straight for their jugular than building up to it in stages.


  188. Guggi
    189 | February 16, 2011 1:40 pm

    @ lobo91:

    as long as they’re halfway around the world and have no way to get here.

    You know the famous slogan ?

    *Ami go home but please take us with you* ;-)


  189. lobo91
    190 | February 16, 2011 1:42 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Bullshit. People still do business with China. People still do business with Iran. And we’d still be the money player in the world. People would still do business with us.

    The Chinese and the Russians might. The EU, Japan, and Canada wouldn’t, at least until we turned our president over to The Hague for trial.


  190. NoThreat2U
    191 | February 16, 2011 1:42 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:
    Pakistan and Iran will have what the hell ever they want. They don’t play by the rules. We do because we are better than that. Just keep repeating that over and over again when another US city gets hit. “Well, they took out the Sears Tower but I sure feel good about myself that we are better than that.”


  191. vagabond trader
    192 | February 16, 2011 1:43 pm

    I don’t really care how many people living in some valley in Afghanistan think I should be killed as an infidel, as long as they’re halfway around the world and have no way to get here.

    They have already been here and killed over 3000 of us.I don’t think they’ll stop trying anytime soon.


  192. NoThreat2U
    193 | February 16, 2011 1:43 pm

    @ lobo91:
    So we thumb our nose at the ICC, kinda like Bashir in Sudan is doing.


  193. 194 | February 16, 2011 1:43 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Nevergiveup:
    Not, at least until they nuke us first. If we don’;t collapse internally, nuclear terrorism is just about inevitible. How close to inevitible depends mainly on how close Iran is to working weapons. We’re certainly not going to do anything to stop them or give them any reason to believe our reaction would be any different than our reaction to 9-11. That isn’t sufficient to deter them from doing anything that the can.

    Sigh… Read The Belmont Club’s “Conjecture Two” It might explain why I lean towards nuking places like Mecca and Media right now. I’m pretty sure these guys got it right.


  194. lobo91
    195 | February 16, 2011 1:44 pm

    @ vagabond trader:

    They have already been here and killed over 3000 of us.I don’t think they’ll stop trying anytime soon.

    Illiterate goat herders from Afghanistan didn’t.


  195. Nevergiveup
    196 | February 16, 2011 1:45 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    least until we turned our president over to The Hague for trial.

    I wouldn’t even turn Obama over to the Hague


  196. lobo91
    197 | February 16, 2011 1:46 pm

    Nevergiveup wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:
    least until we turned our president over to The Hague for trial.
    I wouldn’t even turn Obama over to the Hague

    I’d rather send him to Gitmo.


  197. Nevergiveup
    198 | February 16, 2011 1:47 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Nevergiveup:
    Pakistan and Iran will have what the hell ever they want. They don’t play by the rules. We do because we are better than that. Just keep repeating that over and over again when another US city gets hit. “Well, they took out the Sears Tower but I sure feel good about myself that we are better than that.”

    If they take out a US City, I’d be prepared to take out half the world in retaliation


  198. Guggi
    199 | February 16, 2011 1:48 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:

    I wouldn’t even turn Obama over to the Hague

    The U.S.A. not even recognizes The Hague (and this has my full support).


  199. vagabond trader
    200 | February 16, 2011 1:48 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Last time I checked A-stan is where all the fuggers trained with full support of the government.I don’t care if they can read a law book or not,they were complicit.


  200. Nevergiveup
    201 | February 16, 2011 1:48 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Nevergiveup wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:
    least until we turned our president over to The Hague for trial.
    I wouldn’t even turn Obama over to the Hague

    I’d rather send him to Gitmo.

    OK I could go along with that


  201. 202 | February 16, 2011 1:49 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Yeah, let Japan, as an example, do no business with us. What does that mean? Are they going to pack up the Toyota plants in the US and stop selling us cars? That isn’t going to happen. They might make some kind of diplomatic noise, but they have nothing that they can effectively do against us. What is the EU but a collection of parasites that have been living off of the United States since the end of World War Two? Would they go to China to defend them from Russia? Lord knows they wouldn’t build a military of their own. Besides which, you are forgetting the atrocity that sparked this action. We aren’t talking about nuking Afghanistan for target practice. Never get yourself hurt sparing your enemy the just consequences of his actions. You say that we would have become a pariah state, but who has cut their ties with the Muzzies over their atrocities? No, the world would have respected (or feared) America’s actions. They might would have carped, but no one would have done anything of substance against us.


  202. NoThreat2U
    203 | February 16, 2011 1:49 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:
    I fear that would never happen. We would just double down on our efforts to win their hearts and minds.


  203. lobo91
    204 | February 16, 2011 1:50 pm

    vagabond trader wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Last time I checked A-stan is where all the fuggers trained with full support of the government.I don’t care if they can read a law book or not,they were complicit.

    The 9/11 hijackers trained in the US. Maybe we should nuke those flight schools.

    As for being complicit, the majority of Afghanistan’s population didn’t even support the Taliban, much less al Qaeda.


  204. Macker
    205 | February 16, 2011 1:51 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Then again, الرئيس أوباما and the rest of the world sees Israel as a pariah state anyways. So frak it.


  205. 206 | February 16, 2011 1:51 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    doriangrey wrote:
    All hail the new Roman Empire, Pax Americana.
    You say that like it would be a bad thing…

    I would like an American Empire. hell I’ll sign up seize someone else’s land and marry the local women. I’m Latin so its in my DNA!

    :-)


  206. 207 | February 16, 2011 1:52 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    We can’t even get agreement on retributive strikes against the enemy that did this to us. Strategic strikes against a putative non-combatant wouldn’t even be considered. Notice I am not saying strike the entire Muslim world. I am limiting retribution to the Nation-State (or as close to a nation-state as they come to in that part of the world) with culpability for the actions.


  207. Macker
    208 | February 16, 2011 1:52 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Nevergiveup:
    I fear that would never happen. We would just double down on our efforts to win their hearts and minds.

    أوباما certainly would…and blame us Stupid Americans because of it.


  208. Nevergiveup
    209 | February 16, 2011 1:52 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ Nevergiveup:
    I fear that would never happen. We would just double down on our efforts to win their hearts and minds.

    Nah we lose a city, things will change. But that is some high price to wake up the morons in this country


  209. 210 | February 16, 2011 1:53 pm

    @ Rodan:

    :P

    Seriously, though, I am up for it. Someone has to civilize the barbarians. All multicultuarlism does is allow the barbarians to barbarize you.


  210. NoThreat2U
    211 | February 16, 2011 1:53 pm

    @ Rodan:
    ROFLMAO***** I wondered when you would chime in here. lol

    @ Macker:
    So true :(


  211. NoThreat2U
    212 | February 16, 2011 1:54 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:
    Keep in mind that TOTUS claims we could absorb another hit, so I really don’t see him getting pissed at all if something like that happened. More jizya and sharia law would be his answer.


  212. vagabond trader
    213 | February 16, 2011 1:55 pm

    @ lobo91:


    They got around


  213. Guggi
    214 | February 16, 2011 1:56 pm

    Israel and project interchange


  214. Guggi
    215 | February 16, 2011 1:57 pm

    @ lobo91:

    The 9/11 hijackers trained in the US. Maybe we should nuke those flight schools.

    Or Germany ?


  215. 216 | February 16, 2011 1:58 pm

    @ lobo91:

    See peopel are frustrated. We are dealing with an enemy that is brutal betyond belief. Islam has only been defeated by more ruthless adversaries. Only the Spanish, Mongols, Polish and Russians have infliected massive defeates on them.

    I’m not in favor of nuke strikles, but I do favor WWII style fire bombings and destroying their civilization. They are savages and have caused more genocdei in the last 1400 years than any other force until the rise of Communism and Nazism.

    I’ll defer to you since you wear the uniform and I don’t. But I wa sjust giving you my viewpoint!


  216. 217 | February 16, 2011 1:58 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:

    9-11 was as bad as a tactical nuke would have been. It was an unprovoked attack on a civillian population. It was about as bad as an act can be against all those principles that are being bandied about. Our reaction was more like it was a major crime. The Taliban/al Qaeda are the fucking Hell’s Angels, and we’re going to shoot some of them, and arrest some of them, but we aren’t going to war against them. Not really. We have fought this action with our hands tied. The only thing saving us is the shere incompetance of our enemies. They won’t stay incompetant forever.


  217. spinmore
    218 | February 16, 2011 1:59 pm

    Hi All. Yes -- this will be a ‘fly-by’ it’s my Saturday and i’m still using the library computer to check bank account, etc.

    Good post -- i’m going to try and attach a link to what an Army nurse can look like in 2011. He’s my oldest -- he may become a doctor some day (not sure yet) but having already picked his career path -- he then decided he wanted to serve. He will be an officer when he graduates in a few.
    http://armyrotc.smugmug.com/LTC2010/CoC146thINF/Combat-Water-Survival/12834714_3ffag#909410143_jPriA-A-LB


  218. Bureaucat
    219 | February 16, 2011 1:59 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:
    Thx!


  219. 220 | February 16, 2011 2:00 pm

    @ lobo91:

    The Afghans rape young boys and use them for sex. I have no respect for them as a people.


  220. NoThreat2U
    221 | February 16, 2011 2:01 pm

    @ spinmore:
    Looks like a brave strong handsome young man. Congratulations :)

    @ Bureaucat:
    You are quite welcome :)


  221. 222 | February 16, 2011 2:02 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    Look at how Islam is the defacto religion of America. They are winning, we are losing.

    20 years ago people laughed at them, now they are ouir defacto overlords.

    I spit on the Koran and their pedophile Bi-sexual dog hating prophet.


  222. 223 | February 16, 2011 2:04 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    Iron Fist wrote:
    doriangrey wrote:
    All hail the new Roman Empire, Pax Americana.
    You say that like it would be a bad thing…
    I would like an American Empire. hell I’ll sign up seize someone else’s land and marry the local women. I’m Latin so its in my DNA!

    ROTFLMAO… I bet you would, but hey, I’m half Irish, if it weren’t for the invention of alcohol we would rule the world right now… :twisted: (heh heh heh, ya it’s from an old joke, God invented alcohol to keep the Irish from conquering the world)


  223. vagabond trader
    224 | February 16, 2011 2:04 pm

    @ spinmore:

    Dang,I never worked with nurses like that. :-) Best wishes!


  224. 225 | February 16, 2011 2:04 pm

    @ Guggi:

    The US did worse to germany than they ever did to a Muslim country. If Hitler had been born 70 years later, he would of beaten today’s US. Our leaders would of called Nazism a ideology of pece and tretaed Germans as gods.

    Thanks God this happened 70 years ago.


  225. Nevergiveup
    226 | February 16, 2011 2:05 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    9-11 was as bad as a tactical nuke would have been.

    Absolutely wrong


  226. vagabond trader
    227 | February 16, 2011 2:05 pm

    @ Rodan:

    ~~shudder~~


  227. Macker
    228 | February 16, 2011 2:05 pm

    @ Rodan:

    Spit ain’t worth it, Rodan. Shit, Piss and Fire, and Small Arms would be much more appropriate!


  228. NoThreat2U
    229 | February 16, 2011 2:05 pm

    @ vagabond trader:
    Kinda makes you wanna fake an injury huh??? lol


  229. vagabond trader
    230 | February 16, 2011 2:08 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    lol,I did work with a great guy years ago,a Nam vet who joined the Navy and became a corpse-man thinking he’d get the best of it safely aboard ship. Until the day he was reminded the Navy supported Marines and his azz was headed for the jungle.


  230. m
    231 | February 16, 2011 2:10 pm

    @ NoThreat2U:

    I have this fevah…

    /

    ;-)


  231. 232 | February 16, 2011 2:11 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:

    Three thousand dead (and what, 20,000 injured? I’ve never seen that figure) and roughly $1 trillion in economic damage. It wuld depend on where and how you used the nuke, but a low-yield tactical weapon, sure. It was worse than Pearl Harbor, in any event. Considerably worse than Pearl Harbor.


  232. 233 | February 16, 2011 2:12 pm

    @ Nevergiveup:

    And you don’t answer the rest of that post. Because I am absolutely right.


  233. 234 | February 16, 2011 2:13 pm

    vagabond trader wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:
    lol,I did work with a great guy years ago,a Nam vet who joined the Navy and became a corpse-man thinking he’d get the best of it safely aboard ship. Until the day he was reminded the Navy supported Marines and his azz was headed for the jungle.

    Bill Cosby does a damned funny routine on that… (take two aspirin and mail me the five bucks)


  234. NoThreat2U
    235 | February 16, 2011 2:14 pm

    @ vagabond trader:
    Surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    @ m:
    In all honesty, these youngsters who want to serve impress me.


  235. vagabond trader
    236 | February 16, 2011 2:15 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Have to look for that. Cosby did some funny stuff back then. :-)


  236. 237 | February 16, 2011 2:15 pm

    m wrote:

    @ NoThreat2U:
    I have this fevah…
    /

    ROTFLMAO… I knew NT2U was a cougar but I did realize you were too… :shock: :razz:


  237. 238 | February 16, 2011 2:17 pm

    vagabond trader wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    Have to look for that. Cosby did some funny stuff back then.


  238. m
    239 | February 16, 2011 2:18 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    rrRRooOOooRRrr

    lol!


  239. lobo91
    240 | February 16, 2011 2:20 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Nevergiveup:
    And you don’t answer the rest of that post. Because I am absolutely right.

    You’re not even in the same area code as right.


  240. 241 | February 16, 2011 2:22 pm

    @ lobo91:

    When we get hit again (and we will get hit gain), we’ll see what happens, won’t we?


  241. vagabond trader
    242 | February 16, 2011 2:22 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Classic.Wonder how many smug young men thought they had beat the rap,lol.


  242. 243 | February 16, 2011 2:22 pm

    m wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    rrRRooOOooRRrr
    lol!

    Hey, you know I’m only 23 right? :twisted:


  243. 244 | February 16, 2011 2:22 pm

    @ spinmore:
    Impressive indeed! :)


  244. 245 | February 16, 2011 2:24 pm

    NoThreat2U wrote:

    @ vagabond trader:
    Kinda makes you wanna fake an injury huh??? lol

    Exactly! Hey, I uh, have this little pain in my lower back…

    In all seriousness, that is one fine young US soldier.


  245. vagabond trader
    246 | February 16, 2011 2:25 pm

    My brother is a Navy vet and he has had 2 bouts of cancer in the last 30 years. No idea if they were service related but I must say he has been very fortunate to receive excellent care from the VA hospital 20 miles from his home. Every vet deserves the same.


  246. m
    247 | February 16, 2011 2:29 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    That 50th birthday was because you partied twice as hard as everyone else?

    ~:D

    Nice!


  247. 248 | February 16, 2011 2:31 pm

    @ Iron Fist:
    @ lobo91:

    We are all going to have to agree to disagree on this.

    Let’s go to the next thread and bash Obama!


  248. 249 | February 16, 2011 2:41 pm

    m wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    That 50th birthday was because you partied twice as hard as everyone else?
    ~:D
    Nice!

    Heh heh heh, I’m guessing that isnt the first time a man has lied to you while trying to ummmm… well… :oops:


  249. Speranza
    250 | February 16, 2011 2:52 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    When we get hit again (and we will get hit gain), we’ll see what happens, won’t we?

    Not a question of “if” but “when”.


  250. chickadee
    251 | February 16, 2011 2:58 pm

    spinmore wrote:

    Hi All. Yes – this will be a ‘fly-by’ it’s my Saturday and i’m still using the library computer to check bank account, etc.

    Good post – i’m going to try and attach a link to what an Army nurse can look like in 2011. He’s my oldest – he may become a doctor some day (not sure yet) but having already picked his career path – he then decided he wanted to serve. He will be an officer when he graduates in a few.
    http://armyrotc.smugmug.com/LTC2010/CoC146thINF/Combat-Water-Survival/12834714_3ffag#909410143_jPriA-A-LB

    He’s adorable. Of course in a very manly military way.


  251. 252 | February 16, 2011 3:03 pm

    @ Speranza:

    I agree. It is a matter of time, and on what scale, but we will get hit again. What we have done has no deterrant value in the Muslim world.


  252. lobo91
    253 | February 16, 2011 3:36 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    I agree. It is a matter of time, and on what scale, but we will get hit again. What we have done has no deterrant value in the Muslim world.

    Nothing we could do would deter people who are willing to blow themselves up…


  253. 254 | February 16, 2011 3:49 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Then, frankly, we are going to have to kill them until we run out of them. We could blockade them, I guess, but the problem with blockades is both that people run them and that over time people start ignoring them. So we really have no options. Because I am not going to surrender. I am not going to let them kill me.


  254. Speranza
    255 | February 16, 2011 3:54 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Nothing we could do would deter people who are willing to blow themselves up…

    Then I say keep on killing them.


  255. Speranza
    256 | February 16, 2011 3:55 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Iron Fist:
    @ lobo91:
    We are all going to have to agree to disagree on this.
    Let’s go to the next thread and bash Obama!

    That is a target rich environment!


  256. 257 | February 16, 2011 3:56 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Iron Fist wrote:
    @ Speranza:
    I agree. It is a matter of time, and on what scale, but we will get hit again. What we have done has no deterrant value in the Muslim world.
    Nothing we could do would deter people who are willing to blow themselves up…

    So, what does that leave us as an option, conjecture two?


  257. 258 | February 16, 2011 4:01 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:
    Nothing we could do would deter people who are willing to blow themselves up…
    Then I say keep on killing them.

    Sadly I do not think we have a choice, but please read the Belmont Club’s Three Conjecture and focus on Conjecture two.

    In a war between nations, the conflict might stop at this point. But since there is no one with whom to negotiate a peace and no inclination to stop anyhow, the Islamic terrorists will continue while they have the capability and the cycle of destruction continues.
    Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
    1 - 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
    2 - 1 x 10^6 -5 x 10^6
    3 - 5 x 10^6 -1.5 x 10^7
    4 - 8 x 10^6 -3.0 x 10^7
    5 - 1.5 x 10^7 -5.0 x 10^7
    Total - 2.95 x 10^7 -10.2 x 10^7

    At this point, a United States choked with corpses could still not negotiate an end to hostilities or deter further attacks. There would be no one to call on the Red Telephone, even to surrender to. In fact, there exists no competent Islamic authority, no supreme imam who could stop a jihad on behalf of the whole Muslim world. Even if the terror chiefs could somehow be contacted in this apocalyptic scenario and persuaded to bury the hatchet, the lack of command and control imposed by the cell structure would prevent them from reining in their minions. Due to the fixity of intent, attacks would continue for as long as capability remained. Under these circumstances, any American government would eventually be compelled by public desperation to finish the exchange by entering -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column: total retaliatory extermination.
    Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
    1 - 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
    2 - 1 x 10^6 -5 x 10^6
    3 - 5 x 10^6 -1.5 x 10^7
    4 - 8 x 10^6 -3.0 x 10^7
    5 - 1.5 x 10^7 -5.0 x 10^7
    6 0 -8.93 x 10^8
    Total - 2.95 x 10^7 -1 x 10^9

    The so-called strengths of Islamic terrorism: fanatical intent; lack of a centralized leadership; absence of a final authority and cellular structure guarantee uncontrollable escalation once the nuclear threshold is crossed. Therefore the ‘rational’ American response to the initiation of terrorist WMD attack would be all out retaliation from the outset.


  258. 259 | February 16, 2011 4:05 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    What do you think I have been advocating for over nine years now? I knew the answer to this on 9-11. I knew it was Osama and his merry men, and I knew the response would have to be terrible to behjold if it was to be credible. Maybe blowing up Afghanistan won’t deter Iran, but our passive-aggressive come-won’t-you-be-my-neighbor schtick certainly won’t. Lobo has about got me convinced that the only thing to do is a world-wide seek-and-destroy mission for all of them. Not quite. I think they can be deterred. But you won’t do it with feel-good gestures like targeted strikes and worrying about collateral damage.


  259. Speranza
    260 | February 16, 2011 4:48 pm

    @ doriangrey:
    Ludwig the algebraic genius could figure it all out.


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