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Separation Of Church And State Was Meant As A Means Of Practicality, Not Political Correctness Run Amok.

by Flyovercountry ( 75 Comments › )
Filed under Politics, Religion at September 26th, 2011 - 3:00 pm

As a Jewish child growing up in West Virginia, I can look back on lessons in life that many of my fellow citizens did not have the fortune to learn. That is probably true of everyone in the country, to some extent, but I truly believe that it has given me a perspective on certain topics that most do not benefit from. That is why I will say this with confidence. As it is now officially the autumn, and the last quarter of the year is well underway, thoughts will soon be turning to the holiday season. Replace the phrase Happy Holidays with the, and this is unfortunate, politically incorrect term Merry Christmas. It is unfortunate that Merry Christmas has become politically incorrect to say. It is even more unfortunate that the reasons for this shift are moronic at best, and a complete denial of who we are and were we came from as a people at worst. At the heart of the issue is a complete misunderstanding for something which is not even written in the Constitution, but instead a a private letter penned by Thomas Jefferson.

During my youth, whenever Easter came around, I would attempt to become invisible at my desk while the class sang every Easter song contained in our little music books.  This was for no other reason than the fact that I knew that at some point the teacher would say, “maybe the little Jew boy would like to teach us all some Passover songs and bring us some matzoh to try.”  It wasn’t that I wasn’t happy to do those things for anyone who asked, I just did not like being singled out as the example of anything for the other kids to look at.  I never enjoyed being the center of attention.  I certainly never enjoyed being used by others as the reasons for advancing their agenda.  The teachers of my elementary school you see, were attempting to inflict diversity training upon the small children.  The result of the inflicted diversity training was almost always a fist fight after school, and precious little actual cultural understanding.  The important thing I guess is that the teacher really felt good about herself, and that is what really counts to the political left in our country.  It was not nearly so bleak during my formative years however, as many, and I mean many of my childhood friends asked me on their own about my family’s beliefs.  One such friend even stated that he intended to convert on the basis of enjoying matzoh, which personally I will never understand.  Without being force fed diversity, most in our society are able to learn about the many other cultures which make up our great nation, and actually appreciate the experience to a far greater degree, than if those lessons are coerced or inflicted upon us.

As it happens, and whether you like it or not, we live in a country where most of our citizens are Christians.  Christians, are like most other people.  They grow up, learning from their parents, teachers, and experiences.  They are proud of their heritage, and as a general rule, are usually as tolerant of other people’s cultures as they would expect us to be of theirs.  That is why I find it amazing that theirs is the only religion being singled out as being politically incorrect in almost every public and private setting.  The examples of Christianity being bullied by an oppressive Judiciary are almost too numerous, and by the way absurd to list.  Centuries old monuments are being ordered destroyed by courts all around the country after the malevolent ACLU notices that it contains a reference to God or shows a cross in its text somewhere.  Any reference to the Christian God is immediately prosecuted to the point of persecution, lest anyone make the mistake of noticing that our founders were deeply religious men, and also happened to have used that faith as one of the guiding forces for declaring their independence and starting this great nation.  As troubled by all of this as I am, I am also annoyed that the  spirit of my elementary school teachers lives on with the fact that I am being pointed to as the reason why all of this is a morally superior path to take.

This politically correct nonsense is not just relegated to the environs of government.  It, as it always does finds a way to spill itself out into the world of the private sector as well.  In the bowels of our society lives a species of human we should all of us fear.  That species of human is called the Lawyer.  One genus of this species is called the plaintiffs attorney, and this animal is adept at creating phony outrage and injury and using that as a means to damage unsuspecting people in every aspect of their daily lives.  Another genus of this species is called the corporate attorney, and they are adept at inventing asinine workplace rules in order to, “protect,” the rest of us against the ravages of the first genus.  One such set of rules which has been invented are those that say that by mentioning the phrase Merry Christmas in the work place, we might be making non Christians, all 10% of them, uncomfortable.  Meanwhile, Muslim symbols are allowed everywhere.  Muslim schools receive public funding in all 50 states.  Ramadan allowances are made in every workplace, and in every governmental office.  In short, it has somehow become incumbent upon the majority to be tolerant of the intolerance of the minority in this country.

Included as a stand alone page within this blog, (note to all of my blogmocracy friends, it is here,) is a copy of the Constitution of the United States.  I believe that all of us were taught in elementary school that the concept of a separation of church and state were contained within the U.S. Constitution.  I invite all of you to read this document.  The first thing you will notice is that it is written in very plain and easy to understand language.  The men who wrote the thing were plain ordinary men, and almost none of them were lawyers.  So, the first thing that I noticed is the the nuance often mentioned by the left is baloney.  The next thing which may grab your attention is the complete lack of the phrase, “separation of church and state.”  This statement came from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, a full 13 years after we became the United States of America, as founded by our Constitution.  Jefferson was referring of course to the First Amendment which stated that our government would refrain from establishing an official religion, and indeed allow people to worship as they wished.  Jefferson’s statement went further to explain that the founders were afraid of the religious and political corruption which had occurred with regularity in Europe when the churches became involved in the political decision making process.  This phrase did not appear in our lexicon until 1947, when it was used as bludgeon to cajole people into a completely different philosophy entirely.

The trip from keeping the hierarchy of a church out of the political decision making process to be equated with any references to God being removed from public view or our Pledge of Allegiance requires logical gymnastics worthy of Gold Medal Consideration.  Extending this outrage into the private sector is adding insult to stupidity.  But then, the political left is fully capable of this kind of insanity.  If you wish to follow this idiotic behavior, I have two things to say.  One, you are a fool, and two, don’t use me as the excuse anymore.  You should be able to argue your positions based on your own values, and not to point me out as the reason why, I am not in agreement with your asinine example of diversity according to you.  I will say Merry Christmas to my Christian friends, and I will start in August.

Hat tip to Rodan.

Cross Posted at Musings of a Mad Conservative.

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75 Responses to “Separation Of Church And State Was Meant As A Means Of Practicality, Not Political Correctness Run Amok.”
( jump to bottom )

  1. Bumr50
    1 | September 26, 2011 4:12 pm

    Honestly Flyover, sometimes your posts are so good I’m left speechless.


  2. Eliana
    2 | September 26, 2011 4:16 pm

    Excellent post!!

    The examples of Christianity being bullied by an oppressive Judiciary are almost too numerous, and by the way absurd to list.

    I’ll say.

    The same people who bully Christianity are promoting Islam in the name of diversity.

    It’s absolutely disgusting.


  3. 3 | September 26, 2011 4:22 pm

    Easter was the time when Christians “remembered” that the Jews killed Christ.
    Being singled out in class to explain why Jews are God-killers is an order of discomfort away from being asked to describe Passover (upon which Easter is based Christianity). Believing – as a matter of dogma – that Jews are deicides helped a great part of a generation of Europeans to accept their elimination.

    It is not surprising that Jews in America after the second world war, in the heat of civil rights fervor – should reach for the First Amendment to stop schools from being extensions of church.

    But the problem with the First Amendment is that its establishment clause is in conflict with its free practice clause; and the practice of religion is a form of speech. Jurisprudentially, the First Amendment has been pulled in the direction of favoring anti-establishment practices and speech. Islam is being allowed to disguise its anti-constitutional ideology because it has the hallmarks of a religion (an – appropriated – Jewish God and a prophet superseding Jesus). It is beyond the scope of the law to say that one version of supernatural power is more constitutional than another. But it is becoming clear that the law is also unable to curb speech by invoking incitement, sedition or treason laws. Islam’s incitement and sedition, its loyalty to another legal system, is protected just as flag-burning is protected. Sure, patriotic laws – official secret acts – are invoked, often against Jews for giving secrets to Israel. The New York Times, on the other hand, is protected by free speech jurisprudence from revealing secrets with immediate national security consequences.

    My point is: the law cannot control thought; thought can be deadly; religious belief can be deadly; ideology can be deadly.

    One can only hope that life-preserving and enhancing ideas will eventually drive out deadly ones.


  4. 4 | September 26, 2011 4:24 pm

    I say Merry Christmas to people (Happy Christmas if they’re Brits and I remember in time), and I’m an atheist. I expect to see a Christmas tree in front of the old Town Hall, and if there’s a manger scene set up by it, well that’s fine, too. I set up my own Christmas tree and I play all the Christmas music at home (and as far as I’m concerned, the name of the song is “Adeste Fidelis”, not “Oh Come All Ye Faithful”) and all that other stuff. I LIKE Christmas – I view it in a cultural context. The fact that I do not consider myself a Christian has nothing to do with it, so far as I’m concerned.

    Hey, I said “Eid Mubarak!” to the appropriate people at the appropriate times while in the ME, too. And even here in the US to appropriate people.

    That used to be considered just simple politeness.


  5. Bumr50
    5 | September 26, 2011 4:25 pm

    Overlook wrote:

    One can only hope that life-preserving and enhancing ideas will eventually drive out deadly ones.

    Great thought.

    That can only be achieved through societal change, and then be reflected in our representative government.

    Not vice-versa.


  6. buzzsawmonkey
    6 | September 26, 2011 4:28 pm

    Hey, if you love Christmas so much, why don’t you “Merry” it?


  7. 7 | September 26, 2011 4:32 pm

    @ Overlook:

    I really did not want to go there with it for a couple of reasons. One, it is in the past, painful as that past was at times. Secondly, I didn’t really know if my experiences in West Virginia were the same as those who grew up in areas where there were quite frankly a lot more Jews than where I grew up. Thirdly, that particular brand of teaching during Easter is not part of main stream practice any longer. Even when it is said, it is quickly spun by others in the room, so quickly in fact, I am not nearly quick enough to react in any way.


  8. coldwarrior
    8 | September 26, 2011 4:35 pm

    well done!


  9. The Osprey
  10. coldwarrior
    10 | September 26, 2011 4:39 pm

    Overlook wrote:

    Easter was the time when Christians “remembered” that the Jews killed Christ.
    Being singled out in class to explain why Jews are God-killers is an order of discomfort away from being asked to describe Passover (upon which Easter is based Christianity). Believing – as a matter of dogma – that Jews are deicides helped a great part of a generation of Europeans to accept their elimination.

    ???

    not in catholic or orthoxy…there is no blame, the act HAD to be done.

    damn, man, where did you go to school becasue i sure as hell never saw anything like that where i went, and yes, one of my best buds in school is jewish.

    (he went back to israel, joined the idf, married an iranian christian…)


  11. 11 | September 26, 2011 4:39 pm

    @ The Osprey:

    Can anybody get in on this? I’m running low on grenades. Contrary to what the Brady Bunch implies, none of my local gun stores ever seem to have them in stock…


  12. 12 | September 26, 2011 4:46 pm

    @ coldwarrior:

    Very specifically, that concept was taught by Bishop Hodges at St. Michael’s Church in my home town. During the 70′s to a very limited extent, and before Vatican II this was part of the Church’s doctrine, at least according to some of the less enlightened clergy. Whether or not it was a part of the main stream thought I have no idea. This is why I did not include mention of this in my piece. I do know that you are from a much larger urban area than where I grew up, and in a community that has always had a large Jewish population. The things said and taught may have been vastly different than the things being said and taught in the more rural areas.

    Anyway, my entire point with this part was that diversity training happened completely on its own, and much more effectively than when it was forced upon us. The forcing of the diversity training had its own unintended consequence, which was the exact opposite effect being sought by its progenitors.


  13. buzzsawmonkey
    13 | September 26, 2011 4:47 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    not in catholic or orthoxy…there is no blame, the act HAD to be done.

    The whole point of the blood libels and the Host-desecration libels which served as pretexts for pogroms and expulsions in the Middle Ages was the notion that “the perfidious Jews” were responsible for killing Jesus. The blood libel (slaying a Christian child to use its blood in Passover matzos) and the Host-desecration libel (stealing a consecrated Host wafer to crush it and make it bleed) were accusations of Jews symbolically re-enacting the Crucifixion by using either the blood of an innocent or the transubstantiated body of Jesus.


  14. m
    14 | September 26, 2011 4:48 pm

    Nice breakdown Flyovercountry!

    We can’t offend one… except we can offend the other five. It makes no sense.


  15. m
    15 | September 26, 2011 4:50 pm

    @ The Osprey:

    ROPMA.


  16. taxfreekiller
    16 | September 26, 2011 4:51 pm

    Fast and Furious has made Drudge at last as the big lead.

    http://www.drudgereport.com


  17. 17 | September 26, 2011 4:51 pm

    The concept that Jesus had to have been sacrificed, is to my mind, one of the Bad Ideas.

    But then, I think that God is a Bad Idea, although slightly better as a law-giver than a sacrifice taker.


  18. coldwarrior
    18 | September 26, 2011 4:53 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    middle ages many many years ago.

    vatican 2 killed that ‘blame the jew’ thing.

    and during the entire holy week in orthodoxy, the pharacies are mentioned once. i’ll pay closer attention at liturgy during holy week, but i think the word jewish is stated once and that has to do with passover hooiday…

    but, if yinz want to believe we still think that way, i cant stop you.


  19. buzzsawmonkey
    19 | September 26, 2011 4:54 pm

    Overlook wrote:

    But then, I think that God is a Bad Idea

    Better not let Him hear you say that.

    Ooops, too late…


  20. m
    20 | September 26, 2011 4:55 pm

    @ coldwarrior:

    Yeah, I wasn’t taught that either. It was “chosen ones” not “chosen to blame”.


  21. 21 | September 26, 2011 4:55 pm

    @ coldwarrior:

    My 17 should have addressed you.


  22. The Osprey
    22 | September 26, 2011 4:56 pm

    @ Mike C.:

    I think you need to be Muslim, and Somali.

    I’ll pass.


  23. 23 | September 26, 2011 4:56 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    He hasn’t taken any notice of me ever.


  24. coldwarrior
    24 | September 26, 2011 4:57 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Fast and Furious has made Drudge at last as the big lead.
    http://www.drudgereport.com

    well, i’ll be!

    f and f has made the big time!


  25. coldwarrior
    25 | September 26, 2011 4:58 pm

    Overlook wrote:

    @ coldwarrior:
    My 17 should have addressed you.

    copy that.


  26. coldwarrior
    26 | September 26, 2011 4:59 pm

    Overlook wrote:

    The concept that Jesus had to have been sacrificed, is to my mind, one of the Bad Ideas.

    had to happen, not good, not bad…

    must


  27. coldwarrior
    27 | September 26, 2011 5:00 pm

    m wrote:

    @ coldwarrior:
    Yeah, I wasn’t taught that either. It was “chosen ones” not “chosen to blame”.

    ditto.


  28. 28 | September 26, 2011 5:02 pm

    @ coldwarrior:

    But whose imperative is it, if not God’s? Or is there a fate beyond Him?


  29. coldwarrior
    29 | September 26, 2011 5:06 pm

    Overlook wrote:

    @ coldwarrior:
    But whose imperative is it, if not God’s? Or is there a fate beyond Him?

    dunno,

    next time i am golfing with my priest, i’ll run that question by him. (he loves golfing with me :lol: )

    can i get an answer from you from my #10?


  30. buzzsawmonkey
    30 | September 26, 2011 5:08 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    middle ages many many years ago.

    vatican 2 killed that ‘blame the jew’ thing.

    and during the entire holy week in orthodoxy, the pharacies are mentioned once. i’ll pay closer attention at liturgy during holy week, but i think the word jewish is stated once and that has to do with passover hooiday…

    but, if yinz want to believe we still think that way, i cant stop you.

    I was speaking historically. I’m well aware that the Vatican has done a great deal to alter that particular medieval vestige, and that times have greatly changed from eighty years ago when my father, and his Jewish friends, would routinely be beaten up by their elementary school contemporaries for being “Christ-killers.”

    For that matter, back before the Great Exodus from Yertle’s Swamp, I posted a comment there thanking the religious Christians (of whatever denomination) for making it plain to me just how much things have, for the most part, changed from the “bad old days.”

    It is thanks to such posters that, when a friend (who had become some sort of “born-again Catholic”) suddenly became a former friend by erupting in a whole series of antisemitic bromides (which started with “why do Jews think they’re the Chosen People?” and ended with “they must have done something to deserve being killed by Hitler”), I could recognize that he was an atypical asshole rather than a legitimate representative of his faith.


  31. coldwarrior
    31 | September 26, 2011 5:08 pm

    wait a minute….

    there is a law rocket in that drudge pic…

    umm….those CANT be purchased at gun stores…


  32. coldwarrior
    32 | September 26, 2011 5:10 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    he wanst atypical, he was in fact apostate.


  33. buzzsawmonkey
    33 | September 26, 2011 5:11 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    he wanst atypical, he was in fact apostate.

    He’s also a proggie loon, so there you go.


  34. m
    34 | September 26, 2011 5:15 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    And an idiot. But I repeat you…


  35. 35 | September 26, 2011 5:15 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    can i get an answer from you from my #10?

    The experiences (in the 1950s) were related to me about a private boarding school in England with an Anglican teacher, and a state day school in South Africa with a Dutch Reform teacher. In Religious Instruction class and History class, respectively.


  36. coldwarrior
    36 | September 26, 2011 5:16 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    he wanst atypical, he was in fact apostate.

    should read

    “he wasnt JUST atypical, he was in fact apostate.”


  37. 37 | September 26, 2011 5:20 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    And my ancestors were warred upon for centuries for being Catholic rather than Protestant. And were discriminated against when they got to the US (“Irish Need Not Apply”), best exemplified by the great line from the Mayor of Rock Ridge in “Blazing Saddles”, “We’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks, but we don’t want the Irish!”

    That was then, this is now.


  38. coldwarrior
    38 | September 26, 2011 5:25 pm

    @ Mike C.:

    i love that movie.

    no way in hell they could make that today.


  39. 39 | September 26, 2011 5:26 pm

    Mike C. wrote:

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    And my ancestors were warred upon for centuries for being Catholic rather than Protestant. And were discriminated against when they got to the US (“Irish Need Not Apply”), best exemplified by the great line from the Mayor of Rock Ridge in “Blazing Saddles”, “We’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks, but we don’t want the Irish!”

    That was then, this is now.

    Exactly! and somehow without government inflicted efforts to help your ancestors assimilate and eventually prosper in this nation, they did so. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the only groups having trouble with the assimilation problem are those who have the government, “helping,” them out with that effort. The special treatment for any ethnic group is the very cause of their inherent problems.


  40. taxfreekiller
    40 | September 26, 2011 5:30 pm

    “file photo”

    They all use the same old photos over and over.@ coldwarrior:


  41. coldwarrior
    41 | September 26, 2011 5:31 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    “file photo”
    They all use the same old photos over and over.@ coldwarrior:

    copy that.

    i thought it odd that a law rocket would be purchased in a gun store.


  42. The Osprey
    42 | September 26, 2011 5:31 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    wait a minute….

    there is a law rocket in that drudge pic…

    umm….those CANT be purchased at gun stores…

    And check out that FN-FAL with the g_dawful AW Ban era “thumbhole” stock…Fuldkommen gak! Obviously does not belong to a FALFILER…those things are an abomination in the eyes of St. Saive!


  43. buzzsawmonkey
    43 | September 26, 2011 5:33 pm

    Mike C. wrote:

    That was then, this is now.

    To a large degree; not entirely.

    I am not trying to bring up the bad old days—rather, to celebrate how far we’ve moved on from them—but the era of, shall we say, more overt prejudices is not something solely relegated to eons past; it stretches well into my own life.

    I have noted, at other times, that I can well remember efforts in my American elementary school to get the overtly religious music out of the Christmas and the Easter/Spring assemblies, and I can well understand why the Jewish parents did it. At the same time, I also experienced compulsory Christian religious instruction (and compulsory morning hymns) when I was in school overseas—and have to say that in retrospect the experience was valuable.


  44. coldwarrior
    44 | September 26, 2011 5:39 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    i’m trying to remember what we did in school here…if i am not mistaken we did the christian things and jewish things when appropriate.

    we were in a pretty conservative school district, so there were no real complaints. and it was fun, it got us out of class!

    the district was predominately itlaian and slav/polish…granparent from the old country, a few jewish families…all busting their asses in the steel mills and on the rail road


  45. 45 | September 26, 2011 5:42 pm

    m wrote:

    @ coldwarrior:

    Yeah, I wasn’t taught that either. It was “chosen ones” not “chosen to blame”.

    me too. I’ve always been Christian, attended many different types of churches (Catholic, Baptist, and a wide variety of non-denominational churches) and in all my life have never heard any blame affixed to anyone except “sinners” whose sins were paid for hence the sacrifice. Jews and Judaism have always been held in the highest esteem and honor for preserving the Scriptures, producing the Messiah and the prophets … Always very positive. If any preacher / pastor / priest had done otherwise, you can be assured that they would have heard from me immediately.


  46. buzzsawmonkey
    46 | September 26, 2011 5:48 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    it was fun, it got us out of class!

    Heh. That, of course, was the bottom line.

    Frankly, kids are resilient; they take what comes in stride. Learning to sing “Stand Up, Stand Up, for Jesus, Ye Soldiers of the Cross” did me no harm, even if it felt a little weird at the time.

    More to the point, for me: back when parents had to explain the differences between Christianity and Judaism, if only to explain why all the other kids knew “We Three Kings” but we didn’t, forced parents to decide whether or not they were going to do their job and educate their kids if they wanted to pass on their religious tradition. Having won their battle for “ecumenism,” the Jewish parents lost the battle of continuity; the reason that so many Jewish parents get their panties in a twist over Christmas trees is that they have failed their children by failing to pass anything on to their children—and they are blaming the Christmas trees, and the dominant culture, for their own failures.


  47. coldwarrior
    47 | September 26, 2011 5:54 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    see, i assume that the jewish families where i went to school were ok with the christian thing and added the jewish education. one of the jewish moms was on the school board…she still is, thank god!

    so both sides got to enjoy each other, no harm no foul. i think everyone being steel workers and rail road workers together kinda mitigated any religious animosity.

    mind you, i dont know if that still goes on there today.


  48. 48 | September 26, 2011 6:01 pm

    Kirly wrote:

    m wrote:
    @ coldwarrior:
    Yeah, I wasn’t taught that either. It was “chosen ones” not “chosen to blame”.

    me too. I’ve always been Christian, attended many different types of churches (Catholic, Baptist, and a wide variety of non-denominational churches) and in all my life have never heard any blame affixed to anyone except “sinners” whose sins were paid for hence the sacrifice. Jews and Judaism have always been held in the highest esteem and honor for preserving the Scriptures, producing the Messiah and the prophets … Always very positive. If any preacher / pastor / priest had done otherwise, you can be assured that they would have heard from me immediately.

    I went to school in Washington State in the 60′s, Florida in the 60′s, Washington State again in the 70′s and California in the 70′s. And never once saw any of what is described in this article.

    Furthermore I went to Church in Washington, Florida and here in California and never once heard Jew’s described as God-Killers or of them holding any special responsibility for Jesus Christ’s death.

    What I was always taught was that Christ’s death was necessary to redeem ALL of mankind from sin. That it was the sinful nature of all of mankind that put Jesus Christ on the cross, not the Jew, not the Romans, but it was mankind as a whole who were responsible.

    Racism is an unfortunate reality, and yes I know many people who dont think of themselves in terms of being racists, are in fact racists. The fact that some of those people happen to be Christians is a sad and unfortunate reflection not on Christianity, but on human beings, which according to both the Catholic teaching of my youth and the Protestant teaching of my adult life is the entire reason that Christianity exists.


  49. buzzsawmonkey
    49 | September 26, 2011 6:02 pm

    @ coldwarrior:

    Things were a lot easier when all this had to merely be sorted out among Christians and Jews. Now that we’ve got Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Wicca practitioners and Gaia worshippers and who knows what, it’s not enough to have “We Three Kings” and “I Had a Little Dreidel” at the Winter Assembly, even if the ACLU were to let you get away with it.


  50. yenta-fada
    50 | September 26, 2011 6:04 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    When I was a kid, I was fortunate enough to attend a summer camp in Michigan called Interlochen. This was well before it became a year around school/arts academy. The original founders were devout Christians. We all wore uniforms so that there was no competition regarding clothing. The healthy competition was solely arts-based; trying out for orchestra chairs, theatrical roles, etc. Every Sunday there were non-denominational services with Brass Choir and hymns. Christ was never mentioned, but God was in all the hymns. It was the sanest place I’ve ever been and I’m old.


  51. coldwarrior
    51 | September 26, 2011 6:07 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    true…true…


  52. 52 | September 26, 2011 6:07 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    the ACLU were to let you get away with it.

    The ACLU are a bunch of GOD DAMNED Communists, their religion is Marxism and their Bible the Communist Manifesto. They will abide no competition, they will suffer no God above the State. And every single one of the ACLU Lawyers should be hung for TREASON. But, hey, that’s just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


  53. buzzsawmonkey
    53 | September 26, 2011 6:11 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Don’t hold back so much, dorian; I’m still in doubt as to where you stand.


  54. yenta-fada
    54 | September 26, 2011 6:13 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:
    the ACLU were to let you get away with it.
    The ACLU are a bunch of GOD DAMNED Communists, their religion is Marxism and their Bible the Communist Manifesto. They will abide no competition, they will suffer no God above the State. And every single one of the ACLU Lawyers should be hung for TREASON. But, hey, that’s just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

    Hey, ACLU lawyers are going to have to get in line with everyone else headed to download city!


  55. coldwarrior
    55 | September 26, 2011 6:13 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    Don’t hold back so much, dorian; I’m still in doubt as to where you stand.

    see, that is his problem, always ambiguous.

    i wish he would just spout it out and quit obfuscating.

    :lol:


  56. yenta-fada
    56 | September 26, 2011 6:14 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    Don’t hold back so much, dorian; I’m still in doubt as to where you stand.

    I like to think of Dorian as ‘focused’. :-)


  57. 57 | September 26, 2011 6:15 pm

    Well, all too convoluted for me. I posted my thoughts on what I thought was the subject, so I’ll just leave it at that. Except to say that in meat space, I only know one Jew in my current circle for certain, and that is because he told me. If he hadn’t have told me, I never would have known, because I never ask such questions and generally don’t discuss such things, especially in an office setting. I know that one other guy in the office is RC, again, because he told me. And I know that our best specialist software IT guy is a fundamentalist muslim, because I’m not blind. I have no bloody idea what the hell everybody else is, and don’t care. Definitively none of my business.


  58. 58 | September 26, 2011 6:16 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    Don’t hold back so much, dorian; I’m still in doubt as to where you stand.

    Well, you know, if I actually said exactly what I mean, somebodies panties would surely get in a serious bunch… :twisted:


  59. buzzsawmonkey
    59 | September 26, 2011 6:16 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    More seriously, the ACLU got its hooks into the school system during Vietnam, with lawsuits to preserve “student free speech” (War Moratorium armbands, long hair, and abolition of dress codes). Result: a Balkanization based on “rights” where it didn’t belong—and leverage based on who could pay for, or otherwise rustle up, a lawyer. There’s a whole bunch of “student rights” jurisprudence that should probably be towed out to sea and burned.


  60. 60 | September 26, 2011 6:19 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    Kirly wrote:

    m wrote:
    @ coldwarrior:
    Yeah, I wasn’t taught that either. It was “chosen ones” not “chosen to blame”.

    me too. I’ve always been Christian, attended many different types of churches (Catholic, Baptist, and a wide variety of non-denominational churches) and in all my life have never heard any blame affixed to anyone except “sinners” whose sins were paid for hence the sacrifice. Jews and Judaism have always been held in the highest esteem and honor for preserving the Scriptures, producing the Messiah and the prophets … Always very positive. If any preacher / pastor / priest had done otherwise, you can be assured that they would have heard from me immediately.

    I went to school in Washington State in the 60′s, Florida in the 60′s, Washington State again in the 70′s and California in the 70′s. And never once saw any of what is described in this article.

    Furthermore I went to Church in Washington, Florida and here in California and never once heard Jew’s described as God-Killers or of them holding any special responsibility for Jesus Christ’s death.

    What I was always taught was that Christ’s death was necessary to redeem ALL of mankind from sin. That it was the sinful nature of all of mankind that put Jesus Christ on the cross, not the Jew, not the Romans, but it was mankind as a whole who were responsible.

    Racism is an unfortunate reality, and yes I know many people who dont think of themselves in terms of being racists, are in fact racists. The fact that some of those people happen to be Christians is a sad and unfortunate reflection not on Christianity, but on human beings, which according to both the Catholic teaching of my youth and the Protestant teaching of my adult life is the entire reason that Christianity exists.

    Which article are you referring to. I merely stated a personal experience, which specifically did not, nor was it intended to lead to the direction taken. I was merely trying to show that I din not want to be the reason for the banning of Christian symbols in city halls as schools any longer. My only point was that the separation of church and state, while not actually being a part of the Constitution was also taken way out of its original context to become the perversion it is today. bot of these things are valid points, which I feel I did a decent job of explaining.

    Secondly, as I also pointed out in several comments along the way, I grew up in the heart of Klan country, so that some of the things being taught to the good people there by the clergy were decidedly different than your experiences. I was very specific in those comments to note that the experiences of most folks were probably much different, and not many of you had this as a part of your childhood.

    I also meant to point out that a forced assimilation and government forced diversity training never works, but people doing this on their own almost always does.


  61. 61 | September 26, 2011 6:21 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    doriangrey wrote:
    buzzsawmonkey wrote:
    the ACLU were to let you get away with it.
    The ACLU are a bunch of GOD DAMNED Communists, their religion is Marxism and their Bible the Communist Manifesto. They will abide no competition, they will suffer no God above the State. And every single one of the ACLU Lawyers should be hung for TREASON. But, hey, that’s just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
    Hey, ACLU lawyers are going to have to get in line with everyone else headed to download city!

    Ummm, no, I’m pretty sure their is a special express bus for Marxist’s and an express rocket for Marxist’s lawyers… :twisted:


  62. coldwarrior
    62 | September 26, 2011 6:30 pm

    @ Flyovercountry:

    the klan never got rooted here…too many ‘papists’ and slavs.

    now, a bit farther east 3 counties or so…wow! straight up grand dragon stuff going on.

    (buncha toothless, inbred wonders there)


  63. 63 | September 26, 2011 6:36 pm

    Flyovercountry wrote:

    doriangrey wrote:
    Kirly wrote:
    m wrote:
    @ coldwarrior:
    Yeah, I wasn’t taught that either. It was “chosen ones” not “chosen to blame”.
    me too. I’ve always been Christian, attended many different types of churches (Catholic, Baptist, and a wide variety of non-denominational churches) and in all my life have never heard any blame affixed to anyone except “sinners” whose sins were paid for hence the sacrifice. Jews and Judaism have always been held in the highest esteem and honor for preserving the Scriptures, producing the Messiah and the prophets … Always very positive. If any preacher / pastor / priest had done otherwise, you can be assured that they would have heard from me immediately.
    I went to school in Washington State in the 60′s, Florida in the 60′s, Washington State again in the 70′s and California in the 70′s. And never once saw any of what is described in this article.
    Furthermore I went to Church in Washington, Florida and here in California and never once heard Jew’s described as God-Killers or of them holding any special responsibility for Jesus Christ’s death.
    What I was always taught was that Christ’s death was necessary to redeem ALL of mankind from sin. That it was the sinful nature of all of mankind that put Jesus Christ on the cross, not the Jew, not the Romans, but it was mankind as a whole who were responsible.
    Racism is an unfortunate reality, and yes I know many people who dont think of themselves in terms of being racists, are in fact racists. The fact that some of those people happen to be Christians is a sad and unfortunate reflection not on Christianity, but on human beings, which according to both the Catholic teaching of my youth and the Protestant teaching of my adult life is the entire reason that Christianity exists.

    Which article are you referring to. I merely stated a personal experience, which specifically did not, nor was it intended to lead to the direction taken. I was merely trying to show that I din not want to be the reason for the banning of Christian symbols in city halls as schools any longer. My only point was that the separation of church and state, while not actually being a part of the Constitution was also taken way out of its original context to become the perversion it is today. bot of these things are valid points, which I feel I did a decent job of explaining.
    Secondly, as I also pointed out in several comments along the way, I grew up in the heart of Klan country, so that some of the things being taught to the good people there by the clergy were decidedly different than your experiences. I was very specific in those comments to note that the experiences of most folks were probably much different, and not many of you had this as a part of your childhood.
    I also meant to point out that a forced assimilation and government forced diversity training never works, but people doing this on their own almost always does.

    Sorry, by article I meant your blog post, and again I apologize as I did not mean to suggest or imply that what you experienced did not happen. I have heard enough similar stories to know that such things did happen. My only point was to point out that while such things did happen in some places, there were also a great many places where not only did such things not happen, they would have been reacted to with opposition.

    As a Navy Brat, I moved around the country more than most people, I only offered my personal experiences as a contrast to those you expressed. Not as an effort to deny them or to diminish in any way what you were expressing.

    This I do confess, while in my late 20′s to early 30′s I was engaged to a Jewish woman, for 8 years as a matter of fact. this being here in Southern California, I attended both Jewish and Christian religious services and never saw any trace of anything resembling animosity between either community. Everything I have every learned about such animosity came after we had separated. Upon learning it, I was genuinely surprised, even today hearing about it disturbs me, not that it happened, as I have long since learned that little in the way of human depravity shocks me, but that as much as we moved around when I was young that I did not see it anywhere we lived.


  64. 64 | September 26, 2011 6:40 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:
    @ doriangrey:
    Don’t hold back so much, dorian; I’m still in doubt as to where you stand.
    I like to think of Dorian as ‘focused’.

    I have to wear sunglasses because I have those damned laser beams coming out my eyes… :grin:


  65. 65 | September 26, 2011 6:46 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Such is the beauty of communication. We’ve proven each other’s points.


  66. 66 | September 26, 2011 6:48 pm

    Flyovercountry wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    Such is the beauty of communication. We’ve proven each other’s points.

    <—– Passes Flyovercountry a Samuel Adam's Oktoberfest… :grin:


  67. The Osprey
    67 | September 26, 2011 6:53 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    too many ‘papists’

    Bridget McGuinn? :lol:

    httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVlbenGJ8u0&feature=related

    Ever hear of a Celtic band from Lincoln, NB called The Killigans? They do an awesome Pogues-ish punky version of “The Old Orange Flute” but I can’t find the damn thing on Youtube.


  68. buzzsawmonkey
    68 | September 26, 2011 6:54 pm

    The Osprey wrote:

    Ever hear of a Celtic band from Lincoln, NB called The Killigans? They do an awesome Pogues-ish punky version of “The Old Orange Flute” but I can’t find the damn thing on Youtube.

    I understand that on the TV show “Jersey Shore” they do “The Aging Orange Skin-Flute,” but that’s not quite the same thing…


  69. Lily
    69 | September 26, 2011 7:09 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    Overlook wrote:

    Easter was the time when Christians “remembered” that the Jews killed Christ.
    Being singled out in class to explain why Jews are God-killers is an order of discomfort away from being asked to describe Passover (upon which Easter is based Christianity). Believing – as a matter of dogma – that Jews are deicides helped a great part of a generation of Europeans to accept their elimination.

    ???

    not in catholic or orthoxy…there is no blame, the act HAD to be done.

    damn, man, where did you go to school becasue i sure as hell never saw anything like that where i went, and yes, one of my best buds in school is jewish.

    (he went back to israel, joined the idf, married an iranian christian…)

    Same here, as a Catholic…Christ was the sacraficial Lamb. It was meant to happen! Never when I was growing up did I hear it was the Jews fault that Christ was killed. It was meant to happen.


  70. Lily
    70 | September 26, 2011 7:17 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    coldwarrior wrote:

    middle ages many many years ago.

    vatican 2 killed that ‘blame the jew’ thing.

    and during the entire holy week in orthodoxy, the pharacies are mentioned once. i’ll pay closer attention at liturgy during holy week, but i think the word jewish is stated once and that has to do with passover hooiday…

    but, if yinz want to believe we still think that way, i cant stop you.

    I was speaking historically. I’m well aware that the Vatican has done a great deal to alter that particular medieval vestige, and that times have greatly changed from eighty years ago when my father, and his Jewish friends, would routinely be beaten up by their elementary school contemporaries for being “Christ-killers.”

    For that matter, back before the Great Exodus from Yertle’s Swamp, I posted a comment there thanking the religious Christians (of whatever denomination) for making it plain to me just how much things have, for the most part, changed from the “bad old days.”

    It is thanks to such posters that, when a friend (who had become some sort of “born-again Catholic”) suddenly became a former friend by erupting in a whole series of antisemitic bromides (which started with “why do Jews think they’re the Chosen People?” and ended with “they must have done something to deserve being killed by Hitler”), I could recognize that he was an atypical asshole rather than a legitimate representative of his faith.

    Actually I can answer that …. they were the Chosen People for God to come to flesh and blood through. They are still the Chosen People.


  71. yenta-fada
    71 | September 26, 2011 7:20 pm

    @ Lily:

    Given the history, I always ask “Chosen for what”?!!!


  72. Lily
    72 | September 26, 2011 7:28 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    @ Lily:

    Given the history, I always ask “Chosen for what”?!!!

    Ah {yenta}….evil does have a hate on the Jewish People…but God has favored you if not in this life the next.


  73. Lily
    73 | September 26, 2011 7:33 pm

    Just being a Christian now days makes you a radical.

    Excellent read flyover! :)


  74. 74 | September 26, 2011 8:13 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    Great Beer! Thanks.


  75. 75 | September 28, 2011 2:29 am

    The men who wrote the thing were plain ordinary men, and almost none of them were lawyers.

    This isn’t true. According to M. E. Bradford “Founding Fathers” (“a selection of the Conservative Cook Club”, says the blurb) over half of the Framers were in the legal profession one way or another. Charles Pickney and Jared Ingersoll came up in a cursory Google.


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