Open #5
Have a read:
BEAVER FALLS — When Harold Haberfeld graduated from Geneva College in 1934 with a French degree, he had no idea his language skills would lead him on a secret World War II mission nine years later that would end in his death and a mystery.
Haberfeld was honored recently by the FBI’s Buffalo, N.Y., office for his sacrifice nearly seven decades ago. The office dedicated its main conference room to the Beaver Falls-area native during a ceremony.
Thomas Stein, director of alumni relations at Geneva, attended the ceremony and spoke about what an honor it was to have a graduate of the Beaver Falls college memorialized.
“It is a fascinating story,” Stein said. “The kind of story we want more people to hear about, not just Geneva folks.”
Stein said no one at Geneva knew the story about Haberfeld, who was a leader in the French and Spanish clubs and played intramural football and basketball at the school, until about a year ago, when the FBI contacted them for more information on him.
He said the Buffalo office also didn’t know one of its own had been killed in World War II until someone from the Washington office came across the information and the still-classified particulars on Haberfeld’s mission.
FBI Special Agent Harold Haberfeld was a recent addition to the Buffalo office when he was selected for an ill-fated mission to North Africa that was so secret that even now, 69 years after the plane crash that kept him from completing it, his home bureau isn’t entirely sure what his role was.
Buffalo agents said they’re asking FBI headquarters in Washington to declassify the information.
“Special Agent Haberfeld never reached his final destination,” Buffalo Special Agent in Charge Christopher Piehota said. “Due to the covert nature of his national security mission, we still do not know what his final objective was.”
What is known is that the assignment had come from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover at the request of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower. The FBI at the time was tasked with counterintelligence and intelligence collection duties in South and Central America.
“In November of 1942, the allied forces under Eisenhower stormed the beaches of North Africa and we took Algeria and Morocco,” James Robertson, the Buffalo office’s former special agent in charge, said at the ceremony. “There was some information that the allied forces had captured an individual that collaborated with the Nazis and so Eisenhower actually contacted Director Hoover and asked him for a couple of agents to go over to North Africa to interview this individual.”
The prisoner was a French-born American citizen living in Algiers, the FBI said.
Percy “Sam” Foxworth, the assistant director of the FBI’s special intelligence services branch, and Haberfeld were chosen for the task. While only a year into his FBI career, the 30-year-old Buffalo agent had lived and worked as an accountant in Algiers and was fluent in French, German and Portuguese.
But on Jan. 15, 1943, the C-54 plane carrying the two agents and 33 military and other personnel went down in Suriname on the northern coast of South America in what was the worst American aviation disaster to date. Although sabotage was suspected at first, mechanical failure was found to have caused the crash.
Wreckage was strewn across a mile and a half of dense jungle. It would be five years before the victims’ scarce remains, contained in a single casket, would be returned to the United States. They’re buried at the Jefferson Barracks National Cemetery in Missouri.
Hoover himself appeared at Haberfeld’s funeral in Beaver Falls, according to the FBI.
“Special Agent Haberfeld had an outstanding record in the service. His excellent background and superior abilities were assurance of a splendid future in the Bureau,” Hoover wrote afterward.
The reason for the FBI agents’ presence on the plane was a mystery to the public for a year until the man they were going to question killed himself after being brought to Miami to be prosecuted for treason, according to a Feb. 20, 1944, Los Angeles Times article. Charles Bedaux, a 57-year-old millionaire industrialist who admitted close friendships with Nazi party leaders, overdosed on the “sleeping compound” he’d saved from small doses given to him, the report said.
“Bedaux’s death enabled officials to reveal the answer to a year-old mystery — what two Federal Bureau of Investigation agents were doing aboard a plane that crashed in the South American jungles in January 1943 while en route to North Africa,” the newspaper said. “Attorney General (Francis) Biddle revealed that he had dispatched the agents … to investigate Bedaux’s activities.”
Stein said there are no known surviving relatives of Haberfeld, but his story will live on as it is retold. “It is a story well worth telling,” he said.
better
Thanks, Harold!!
@ Bumr50:
neat story.
About to crack open an ice-cold Pennsy beer, anybody want one?
I know shamefully little about post war North Africa and how the region was handled.
@ John Difool:
I’ll take one.
Is it a Yuengling?
More importantly, do you get Victory Brewing products down there? I love their stuff…
John Difool wrote:
whatchoo got?
Bumr50 wrote:
yeah. that might be a fun research project.
Hey I just read that Robert Mugabe is now the UN’s international tourism ambassador. Hahahahahahahhahahaha
@ Bumr50:
@ coldwarrior:
Why Yeungling of course, the only American beer worth drinking. Bumr, as soon as I figure out how to put beer as an attachment into my e-mail I’ll send you a couple
NoThreat2U wrote:
The U in U.N. stands for useless.
@ John Difool:
You’re in VA right?
These guys make a kickass brew called Festie.
I’m not normally a lager guy, but really dig the stuff.
NoThreat2U wrote:
Are you serious ?
@ Bumr50:
Yep, Richmond area. I’ll have to try that.
@ John Difool:
Believe it or not, I got Yuenglinged out a few years back and haven’t had one in a couple.
It was like the ONLY beer anyone was drinking around here for a few years (late 90′s to mid 2000′s), and as good as it is I needed a changeup…
NoThreat2U wrote:
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bumr50 wrote:
we were buying halfs of yuengling porter in 90-2005…then i got rid of the beer meister.
i drove my beer distributor nuts because that stuff was hard to get back then. i would walk out if he didnt have it.
@ Guggi:
Let me get you a link…..
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/05/28/michael-ross-robert-mugabe-named-international-tourism-ambassador-in-latest-un-absurdity/
Guggi wrote:
ohhhh my
@ Bumr50:
I switch up with Dos Equis Amber & Amberbock from time to time to keep things interesting.
@ John Difool:
Steve Martin’s bluegrass act is playing there one June 2.
I’ve heard good things.
Is there any doubt SCOAMF will become head of the Useless.N when his term is up? They’re probably dusting off the desk for him now.
@ John Difool:
That’s what I said, but I guess the US rep can’t be SecGen due to by-laws.
Bumr50 wrote:
I’ve heard good things about them. My father-in-law is one of the best bluegrass guitar/banjo/mandolin players in the area. Highly sought after for local gigs as a replacement player.
I was thinking about getting tickets for him.
@ Bumr50:
When they see that his agenda fits theirs, the will change those bylaws.
NoThreat2U wrote:
If it weren’t so sad it would be funny.
John Difool wrote:
That’s awesome!
Bluegrass is serious in those parts, too.
I’ve been to some private shindigs in central/Eastern WV and things get pretty amazing. (And hazy!)
@ NoThreat2U:
ribs are almost done.
get yer a%% in gear.
Guggi wrote:
i am flabbergasted.
*place john facenda voice over here*
as he readies the bbq sauce, this multidimensional player also has the blenders at the ready…booze and ice, like a cold playoff day in pittsburgh.
coldwarrior wrote:
John Difool wrote:
he HATES the steelers because they just destroyed him twice a year.
@ coldwarrior:
I am in gear….be there shortly
@ coldwarrior:
Someone that I talk to on facebook, who used to be a lizard, is Cris’s cousin. I was bitching about him one day (because he gets on my nerves) and she told me that. We had some good laughs over it. She says in regular life he is a really great guy.
@ coldwarrior:
@ NoThreat2U:
All things considered, I don’t mind Collinsworth.
Tony Siragusa, OTOH, generally disgusts me…
Bumr50 wrote:
a pitt grad, sadly.
Барни Франк Opens Mouth, Inserts Bad Comment:
“…you now got a hoodie you can weaw and no one will thoot at you. I think you’ll feel, I hope, pwetty pwotected by that.”
@ coldwarrior:
I can’t wait until Tino Sunseri is a “pitt grad.”
@ Guggi:
@ coldwarrior:
You. Have. Got. To. Be. Shittin’. Me!
@ Macker:
Why?
It’s almost expected anymore from that gang…
Bumr50 wrote:
from your keyboard to the alumnae assoc ears.
we arent pleased.
@ Bumr50:
Oh, just because.
@ Macker:
I understand. It’s outrageous, but definitely not surprising or shocking.
Steve Martin’s buddies on his last album (Rare Bird Alert) were the Steep Canyon Rangers, a good group in their own right. I have a couple of their albums. Don’t expect to hear old favorites -- they do their own stuff.
“Jubilation Day”, by Steve Martin, with the Steep Canyon Rangers…
@ Mike C.:
I used to catch these guys a lot. Not straight up bluegrass, but straight Appalachia.
Also these guys.
Anybody been to Pattericos today? In the comments section he is saying he is in posession of a cease & desist letter from Rauhauser addressed to Mike Stack who was the first swatting victim.
Problem is, the c & a letter was addressed to the very same wrong address that the Swatting caller claimed was Stack’s address on the 911 call.
Rauhauser is soooooo very fucked.
Diapers And Politicians Should Be Changed Often Both For The Same Reason
@ John Difool:
Yay Karma!
Go get ‘em, Mike! Sue him for everything he has and everything he will get. Sue his partners in crime as well. Anyone know any lawyers who would ENJOY this case?
Just out of curiosity, is anyone else watching the River Monsters marathon?
livefreeor die wrote:
Sue? He wishes that’s all he has to worry about, placing false 911 calls especially ones of that magnitude carry 10+ plus years.
The added benefit is, Rauhauser will be singing like a canary shortly. Ya’ hear that Chuck? You better go get yourself a Gideon’s and start praying TO our evil creationist God your buddy doesn’t drop your name in all of this.
There’ve GOT to be some beat cops in this whole c.f. who don’t like being called out on bullshit malicious 9-11 calls; whilst there’s crime going on elsewhere, or even a freakin’ donut that lies uneaten.
Patterico is a DISTRICT ATTORNEY for the love of God (creationist or otherwise).
I can’t see this “blue wall of silence” that Patterico has been facing staying up forever.
@ Bumr50:
Not even remotely bluegrass. Bluegrass came from what is now called “Old Time String Band” music, which, of course, was derivative of Celtic music. Doesn’t take much of an ear to hear the commonality of Irish or Scottish music to bluegrass.
John Difool wrote:
Has Rauhauser been removed from Daily Kos ?
Oh and tomorrow the tall, dark, handsome, strong and brave young man Kimberlin is going up against “Aaron Worthing” in a Maryland court. Sadly it seems to be a civil case. Also sadly, it seems I may be mistaken about calling Citizen K “tall, dark, handsome, strong and brave” or “young”, or even “man” really.
Guggi wrote:
He was kicked out of DKOS. That right there should tell you how bat-shit crazy this guy is.
@ John Difool:
Sweet!
I just saw that on Patterico’s blog.
Calo wrote:
What do you think Chunk’s doing right now? If I were a betting man I’d say he’s pouring gasoline all over his computer equipment as we speak.
@ Calo:
Link to the comment
@ John Difool:
Hah! Doubtful he would light up his tweetybox and incinerate his only link to to civilization.
Calo wrote:
At #108 Pat drops dox. A copy of the c&d letter from Rauhauser to Stack with very same wrong address the perp gave the cops in the 911 call.
Somewhere in Culver City a morbidly obese manwith a ponytail is suddenly wishing he had some nitro-glycerine tablets handy.
Those of you who’s Twitter accounts aren’t suspended like mine please go and start rubbing this shot in fatboys face.
Totally ruin this fuker’s decade.
John Difool wrote:
I don’t understand why he should be in trouble and yes I did read the comments and the answer to Zeus…. over at DoD (Iste ?)
Guggi wrote:
He may not be in trouble per se BUT using the same guilt-by-association formula he does to smear conservatives we now have definitive proof Charles Johnson is allied with left-wing domestic terrorists since one of his comrade associates is Neal Rauhaser and @BreitbartUnmask aka Brett Kimberlin on Twitter.
Turn-about is fair play, Sux 2 B U Chunk.
@ Guggi:
ISTE doesn’t come over here.
You would have to go to DoD and ask him a question. He is usually very polite when responding to genuine questions.
Someone please tell me this story about Mugabe being made the UN’s tourism spokesman is a f***ing joke, please.
Do they know what has happened to the wildlife parks in Zim under his rule?
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/zim_sells_ivory_to_china_for_Military_use.htm
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/zim_wildlife_dec.htm
John Difool wrote:
I know nothing about his connections to Rauhauser but didn’t he tell @BreitbartUnmask to f*ck off ?
@ The Osprey:
Go ahead Osprey, tell us all how you really feel!
@ Guggi:
ISTE’s trail of the two -- follow the links in that comment as well.
@ Guggi:
He told him to tuck off off for the purposes of decorum. However as recently as yesterday he was still following and exchanging info with one of Kimberlin’s chief lieutenants, Rauhauser. ISTE put up the proof on DoD.
@ John Difool:
Is it my internet connection, or are you having problems getting on DoD as well?
Calo wrote:
I was over there and the question was already asked by Zeus cranky pants and answered by Iste (?) and what I read from the answer there CJ hasn’t much to fear. There is only one critical point: he had a private channel on twitter with @BreitbartUnmask but no one knows if this channel was ever used and for what reason.
So before we don’t know more about this private channel and if and when and what was communicated we should be careful.
@ Calo:
I’m connecting to DoD just fine
@ John Difool:
Thanks Mr DiFool.
And Guggi, I am quite amused you follow DoD.
Calo wrote:
To be a follower isn’t a crime and if he has stopped to follow @BreitbartUnmask the moment he became aware that this is a criminal how should this bring him into trouble ? What you need is hard evidence that CJ at least knew something about the activities of @BreitbartUnmask. We don’t even know for sure if Kimberlin and @BreitbartUnmask are one and the same.
@ Guggi:
Sorry, we don’t give Chuck the benefit of the doubt anymore, the same way he said he doesn’t give the Breitbart folks & by extension, conservatives the benefit of the doubt any more. His rules not ours.
So if Chuck has been Tweeting & exchanging messages with domestic terrorists then he’s also a domestic terrorist plain & simple.
Good enough for me because it would certainly be good enough for him if the roles were reversed.
Calo wrote:
I don’t follow DoD but at here at Blogmoc it was claimed that at DoD there is everdince that CJ is involved into the crime. So I went over there and: I didn’t see much evidence for the claim.
That he is in bad company since “he broke with the Right” isn’t really news.
@ John Difool:
Can they make that a criminal complaint and request the rauhauser twitter account from twitter? Pull in his DM’s and see the depth to which his influence and corruption has spread.
@ Guggi:
For the sake of jurisprudence, until he’s formally indicted could we please start referring to Charles Foster Johnson from here on out as ” the unindicted co-conspirator” for legal purposes?
If not, I’m afraid I’ll have to place a gag order on this site. : )
John Difool wrote:
In some very special cases it may be working to fight fire with fire but usually it doesn’t work to fight libel with libel and crime with crime AND to stay honest. Do I want to be on the same level as CJ ? Certainly not, never ever, no thanks.
@ Guggi:
I don’t mind wallowing around in the mud with the piggies anymore. Andrew Breitbart showed us we should’nt be ashamed to use Alinsky tactics against the Alinskyists.
In fact, he showed us conservatives we are much better at it because not only are we smarter and better informed our fighting spirit can never be equalled.
Like rust, extreme proggesivism never sleeps….and neither will I.
Just stopping in to say Hi! Rain has the roast on the grill, baked potatoes almost done, salad in the making and the beverage is Shock top. Going to be good.Hope everyone enjoys and stays cool.
John Difool wrote:
I read the other posts and have no clue as to what is going on… can you break in down in a sentence or two?
for the day
@ brookly red:
Go to top post at Patterico’s and look at #99 and #108 in the comments section. Chunk’s buddy Rauhauser is about to have his door kicked in.
@ John Difool:
But is there any actual link to Johnson?
RIX wrote:
Rauhauser is Charles Johns…..sorry, the unindicted co-conspirator’s friend on Twitter and they have been exchanging lots of messages and coordinating spamblocks on people
@ RIX:
As of yesterday Johnson….once again sorry….the unindicted co-conspirstor was exchanging messages and following Rauhauser on Twitter. ISTE posted the proof on DoD.
The question is, how much does the ucc know and when did he know it?
John Difool wrote:
thanks for the explanation. I don’t think that is a door kicking offense, unless of course there is some conspiracy clause involved…then anything can happen.
,
@ John Difool:
Charles keeps bad company, because water seeks its
own level.
I know that he is in bed (There’s a bad image) with
cretins. He could well be complicit, but it is another issue
proving it. If he does get nailed, there will not be
any tears shed among the sane.
RIX wrote:
Bingo
@ brookly red:
Maybe not for the unindicted co-conspirator but his friend is about to get a visit from some ruff men in the middle of the night. By extension the unindicted co-conpirstor is also a domestic terrorist whether he gets charged or not.
Once again, those are his rules.
@ brookly red:
But if being a fradulent imbecile was a crime, Johnson
would be doing life without parole.
@ Guggi:
Good evening Guggi.
RIX wrote:
It’s a late evening here or better an early morning
But good evening to you too
Is it just me , or did it drive anybody else crazy
that Barack Hussein Obama was at the Viet Nam Memorial
today?
I know that he is the president, but to me it seemed
like a desacration.
RIX wrote:
He has to polish his image but will it work ?
@ Guggi:
He got elected on slogans & insipid pontificating
the last time.
Now he hs a record & if the Republicans don’t fall
for silly distractons, I think that BHO goes down.
@ RIX:
A desecration by the Obamanation that causes desolation.
RIX wrote:
which? that he was there or that he is the president?
I am agreed that there is, based on what I’ve seen, a lot of evidence that Rauhauser and Kimberlin have conspired to commit terrorist attacks across state lines -- using the federal ‘phone system to boot. (And the Internet, also, is a Federal matter.) If the US had a Justice Department, those two would be charged under RICO.
If I am wrong -- if Kimberlin is just a little ex-con who files baseless lawsuits -- then I apologise.
But onto Johnson’s part in this. Just having an open channel with an (alleged, thus far) terrorist conspiracy doesn’t necessarily mean that he is in on the conspiracy. So I am not going to snark yet about him being an “unindicted co-conspirator”. CAIR’s links with Hamas were much stronger.
Let’s see what DISCOVERY brings up. Rauhauser’s the one who was dumb enough to slip up (see Patterico). There’s got to be probable-cause to cuff Rauhauser and fingerprint that gremlin. I want all of Rauhauser’s tweets and DMs exposed. If it happens that CJ is involved then, well…
The Osprey wrote:
I can’t stand the guy. I avoid the sight of him & I
turn off the radio when he comes on with his annoying
voice.
Guess that I am not one of those undecided voters.
A depressing analyze about California’s economy and political state
RIX wrote:
hopefully….
@ brookly red:
Excellent question. I would say both.
@ Zimriel:
Nope, since the unindicted co-conspirator is buds with Rauhauser he is by extension also a domestic terrorist.
I’m not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn’t give it to us if the roles were reversed in fact he’d be doing the moonwalk complete with jazz hands right now he’d be do happy if he could pin this on a conservative.
RIX wrote:
the ACORN definition of an undecided voter; one who can’t choose between the cigarettes or the malt liquor
@ John Difool:
Johnson never recognized any degree of seperation.
If he wanted to smear somebody his logic went like
this, “He was definitely flying out of the same airport
that a White Supremacist may or may not have flown out
of at one time.
And he can’t prove tht he may even have been on the
same plane at one time or not.”
@ brookly red:
I would only sell out for the smokes AND the beer.
RIX wrote:
I understand the feeling. His voice is like fingernails on a blackboard to me.
It’s time for me to throw some dead animal on the grill.
Just as well, becuase I relly feel like Obama bashing
and this may not be the day for that,
Enjoy the rest of your Memorial Day.
@ The Osprey:
His voice makes my teeth itch.
OK, that is my last Obaam bash until tomorrow.
See ya!
Zimriel wrote:
Snark away and enjoy. Don’t let the lack of facts interfere with the fun. That has never stopped the left and never will.
@ RIX:
Flying out of H.F. Verwoerd Airport with a Tennessee flag in his luggage!
Guggi wrote:
I think Baby Doc will find a way to steal a second term…
John Difool wrote:
Some Folks just don’t get it…
The unindicted co-conspirators last words before being led away to begin his long sentence for being an accomplice to domestic terrorists….
Nontroversy………NONTROVERSY!!
Da_Beerfreak wrote:
Baby Doc! Haiti! Zombies! Democrats!
@ John Difool:
nosnhoJ selrahC, The Unindicted Co-Conspirator. Me Likey!
John Difool wrote:
well with his ego he may claim to be the mastermind, oh well I think there is a website where you can learn jail house sing language… might be good to start practicing
@ brookly red:
Chucky already knows how to throw
the signs of the West Side Cheetos Crew.
The Osprey wrote:
the notorious orange fingaz crew?
The Osprey wrote:
I thought he was a member of Pee 13
brookly red wrote:
The Crunchy Cheez Crips
John Difool wrote:
MD-13
The Osprey wrote:
soon to be one of the bottem bunk boyz
OT: Robert Spencer and David Wood are squaring off at 8 PM EST. I think that’s in like five minutes.
Topic is whether Mo existed.
I’m rooting for da Dave. But, as I’ve noted elsewhere . . . I’m an Ehrman-ist.
The Best American General?
David Wood says, he was originally skeptical of Spencer’s book, but admits that Spencer does offer real scholarly information. “Robert did affect my confidence level” -- from 99.7% sure, now 92% sure. And Spencer is lol’ing.
What Wood expects of a historian -
1. Early sources. In lifetime of eyewitnesses. The later the text, the more likely for myths and legends.
2. Many sources. More sources allows compare / contrast.
3. Independent sources. [kinda goes to "many", imo]
@ Speranza:
Ummm no dude he wasn’t. Launching human wave attacks against inferior numbered forces and suffering massive casualities battle after major battle doesn’t make one a great general. He was just a general who had a stronger stomach for war and one who didn’t let his conscience get in the way.
Lee was quite clearly hands down the best American General.
Wood is breaking up a bit, but he’s agreeing that Islamic sources suck.
“Embarrassment” -- Ehrman calls this Dissimilarity Principle. Unfortunately that’s the most I could get out of that. -- oh good, they fixed the breakup error.
So, if the Muslim sources make Mo look bad, then it’s true. Spencer notes that this wasn’t necessarily embarrassing to Muslims then.
So, Wood says, okay, so we have to look at the stories whether they WERE embarrassing THEN!
-Brings up the Satanic Verses.
-Also brings up being the victim of black magic.
-Mo had too many wives by Abrahamic and Qur’anic standard.
-Brings up the Zayd episode
-Qur’an says God protects prophets and hadith says Mo wanted to die in battle; but Mo died by poison.
The Osprey wrote:
ROFLMAIAO!
John Difool wrote:
I strongly disagree with your description of Grant launching human wave attacks (yes he made some foolish frontal attacks i.e. Vicksburg May 19 and 22, 1863 and Cold Harbor June 5, 1864 as did Lee at Malvern Hill July 1, 1862 and at Gettysburg July 3, 1863 and Sherman at Kenesaw Mountain June 1864 and Chickasaw Bayou December 1863). Grant as a commander showed real strategic skill and could make war on the map. Grant also set up a modern day command staff. Lee’s best generalship was in 1864 when he was forced to give up his wasteful in human lives offensives and he was forced to fight on the strategic defensive. As an engineer he had a clear grasp of how to utilize the ground to his best advantage.
Spencer’s turn.
“Gaping hole” in contemporary sources. He says “they never mention” Muhammad. “Embarrassment” is only criterion Wood [and I!] have to support Mo’s existence in Islamic history.
“Ignominious” end -- hating the Jews trumps protecting the Prophet.
Now he’s citing David Powers on the Zayd episode.
Okay: he’s back to -- no mention of the Qur’an, 630-90 AD.
Hadith didn’t note a leap month for Mo’s life. Although the Muslim calendar (which was lunar like the Jews’) probably *did* have leap months. => Mo didn’t do anything in ANY month; the stories were written at a time when the Muslims didn’t have leap months, that is, late Umayyad period.
Phone lines…
———————
Correction to Wood: a priori assumptions that the Qur’an existed in the 630s. Sura 4, for instance. Equally evidence that Mo did exist but Mo did not know the Q. Also, Satanic Verses could be a false story to explain why sura 53 kept changing.
Correction to Spencer: MahmeT with emphatic T is mentioned in Pseudo-Sebeos. Mahmet is also noted in Thomas the Presbyter before him and John of Edessa after.
Also correction to Spencer: no pre-Marwanid (<690) stories about Mo? How did Ps-Sebeos know he was a trader and a guide?
———————
Spencer has a good point with the death of the Prophet. It needn't even be antisemitic (directly) -- the Qur'an demands that the Jews killed the Prophets. So, reading the Qur'an (and not remembering how the Prophet really died) . . . a Jew had to kill Muhammad, too.
———————
My opinion: The Qur'an's date has to be established FIRST. Then we can haz talks about the Qur'an's witness to Mo.
son of a bitch
http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/05/stuxnet-on-steroids-flame-virus-hits-iran/
A new, unprecedented computer virus called “Flame” (or “sKyWIper”) has hit Iran, the West Bank, and other Middle Eastern locations. It is already considered one of the most sophisticated cyber weapons ever unleashed. Internet security company Kaspersky said Monday that Flame was the “most complex piece of malicious software discovered to date.”
The cyber-espionage worm, designed to collect and delete sensitive information, is said to have 20 times as much code as Stuxnet, which attacked an Iranian uranium enrichment facility (and some 16,000 computers), causing centrifuges to fail. Iran blamed Israel and the US for its creation.
Wood’s rebuttal.
I am concerned that Wood has not read the accounts of “Islam as others saw it” [R. Hoyland].
I think Spencer is pounding his head MMA style thus far
The Osprey wrote:
OK, I couldn’t stay away. That Tennessee flag mistake could
have happened to anybody. well anybody that is a nut bag.
Wood is mainly pounding the Embarrassment / Dissimilarity chicken in his rebuttal.
Wood is coming back with the Satanic Verses -- I think he’s thinking of Burton, “Those are the high-flying cranes”, Journal of Semitic Studies 15 (2): 246–264. maybe he’s read Rubin too.
Wood: why >4 wives? If you want to say Mo is mighty, just give him concubines. He can have sex with the Abrahamic / Qur’anic four, and with the concubines. That’s allowed.
—-
[I like Wood's extra-wives rebuttal. b/c that's an Arab thing, not even a preQur'anic Torah thing.]
—-
Spencer says, none of these stories was embarrassing
*expect Satanic Verses he says.
Spencer -- first, the first generation come up with their stories; then, THOSE stories become a problem. “Once it was out there, they had to explain it away”. [That handles the Satanic Verses.]
Wood has a good point that there are a LOT of embarrassing stories of Mo; and that they make sense -- if the existence of Mo is assumed, such that Mo was a superstitious borderland prophet.
Spencer says we just don’t have enough information to put a check against all this. The dead-zone between 630 and 690 leaves open a lot of room for myth and legend. That’s a reasonable thought too.
The format does favour Spencer. Spencer is in the studio, Wood is remote.
But they support the troops. It’s just what they do that is
so ichy.
@ rain of lead:
Very cool!
@ Dolphin:
Mossad strikes again!
Closing comments. Wood first. He seems less confident . . .
Wood: if someone invented things about Mo, then WHY?! The Sira preserves actions completely embarrassing, not just to Muslims today or to Jews today, but embarrassing to anyone in any possible interpretation of the Near Eastern matrix of the 600s. Self-contradiction, acts of folly…
There are some possibilities to explain how these traditions got invented in the first place -- but not good ones.
Wood: The first conquerors (esp. mawali and other tribes) didn’t care about Mo; they cared about their share of the booty. So lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack.
——--
Spencer:
no crosses in Islam [he means sura 4]
If early Muslims knew Islam was enemy to the cross, why are there crosses in Mu’awiya’s coinage?
Notes own-goal of Wood, toward the end. If Mo existed, even if they just cared about booty -- why *not* mention Mo?
[I think Spencer's conclusion fell off. Some of the warlords did mention a Mhmt. So did Sebeos.]
Wood notes that what happens in the Christian (and Jewish) scholarly level, it gets down to the people. Even in Christian bookstores, lay Christians can get the latest of what the scholars are saying. [I can attest to this. I've bought Septuagint and Vulgate and even Gospel of Thomas in Xian stores]
In Islamic culture, hardly any of this stuff gets down to the people. [Good luck finding even *Hoyland* in an Islamic store!]
Spencer on Bahira, the monk: the legend was invented to explain how all that Christian material entered the Qur’an. Wood: this could go either way. [Spencer has the best of this. Bahira is, at best, a Marwani-era legend. Even John of Damascus doesn't know it.]
Spencer shouted out to Inara(?) Group in Europe. I misheard what it was called.
Spencer muses that “Muhammad” might exist as a composite of Arabian prophets. He has one name in the back of his head [he's certainly referring to Lammens's "Qutham"] but he doesn’t remember.
SUMMATION: Spencer won.
(But I still don’t agree with him.)
Wood is clearly an expert in hadith, but he hasn’t hit the books on what the non-Muslims were writing as of the 600s AD. I hope the schooling he just got will inspire him to go read up on it.
rain of lead wrote:
this is interesting because of the timing… if you were about to attack an enemy, what would be your first move to soften them up?
@ Zimriel:
Hey, thanks for the rundown!
Zimriel wrote:
Thanks for the color commentary.
Just as islam (no caps for me) attacks on multiple fronts, it must be opposed the same way. Death threats and bombs have a way on cutting down public debate. Works, doesn’t it? It’s the Mafia without the code of honor.
m wrote:
{{m}} Did you have a good long weekend?
Zimriel wrote:
Neither do I, I believe that Momo was a real individual, however, I am convinced that in Arabic tradition, he was embellished upon at every retelling of the accounts of his life until he finally achieved his current status which only solidified once the various accounts of him were codified by the movable type offset printing press.
My personal opinion is that he was the son of a camel dung collector who murdered the caravan owner and forced the caravan owners wife to marry him, discovered that as the ignorant uneducated bastard he was, he was completely incapable of running a caravan, ran it into the ground, turned to caravan raiding and murder, was eventually run to ground by dogs (Hence Islams and Mohammad’s hatred of dogs) and only after he was caught fell back on his fathers religious superstitions (Early Arab paganism believed the crazy people were posses by spirits)and threw himself on the ground in a last final desperate attempt to prevent those who had chased him down from killing him right there on the spot and began to act crazy and utter “Prophecies”.
After convincing those who had caught him he was posses by a prophetic spirit he became a religious shaman of sorts who began cobbling together a religion ala The Arabian Night’s, every few weeks adding a new chapter to his story in order to prevent the locals from killing him. His blinding hatred of the Jews come from the fact that the Jew’s in Medina refused to acknowledge him as a prophet and he was forced to flee Medina for Mecca. The Jews of course refused to acknowledge him as a prophet because a) Mohammad wasn’t Jewish, b) Mohammad couldn’t read, and c) his prophecies were far less than 100 percent accurate.
This is why his earliest hadiths are all peaceful and later they become filled with hatred for Jews and Christians.
@ brookly red:
Very interesting about the West Bank part. If an attack was going go be launched towards points east of Israel that would be the first place spies would be sending their reports from.
brookly red wrote:
Psy-opps of course.
dorian, Lulz. Except that Mecca was nowheresville at the time of the Sira. Also, there’s no record of Mo being kicked out of Madina. (The Sira claims he was kicked out of MECCA -- but I don’t buy that. I have no idea if Mo even set foot in that tiny little cow town.)
Thank you yenta and m! I’m sure the full recording will be at jihadwatch soon. Since Spencer won, he’ll be happy to have everyone watch it.
I feel like a Red Sox fan in the 1980s . . .
@ doriangrey:
Cutting off sources of communication and intelligence are good weapons against the allahsnackbars. Too bad so many of them are in the computer field. Some postulate that poor interpersonal skills lead the educated muslims into computer studies. I dunno.
doriangrey wrote:
more than psy-opps, infrastructural derangement… communication, radar, air defense as well as everything else is computer driven. our own military would do well to be less dependent on GPS.
@ brookly red:
Indeed. (I blame your avatar for causing me to have pizza delivered.)
dammit,
@ yenta-fada:
Hey {{{Yenta}}}! I did! Still trying to catch up on the things I should have been doing instead of vegging by the pool all weekend!
yenta-fada wrote:
whats on yours?
John Difool wrote:
Two paws up!
But then, I’m a secessionist.