I love the use of social media to torment Hamas and I also like the fact that the IDF is able to bypass a lot of the “old media” in order to get its message out quickly.
by Allison Hoffman
After the first night of Israeli airstrikes in Gaza, now almost a week ago, a photograph began circulating around Twitter of a grinning 11-month-old who had been killed by an Israeli missile that landed on his house. Within hours, Avital Leibovich, an Israeli Defense Forces spokeswoman, posted a reply of sorts: a photograph[1] of another infant, this one an Israeli girl, wounded by a Hamas rocket in the southern town of Kiryat Malachi. It wasn’t the first skirmish of the virtual war being waged across social media networks by both the Israeli government and Hamas—the real-world hostilities were announced Nov. 14 by the IDF in a tweet[2] trumpeting the death of Hamas leader Ahmed Jabari—but it was an early indication of how the awful life-and-death stakes of war have been reduced to Internet fodder.
The world is by now well aware of the power of social media to help foment and spread popular movements everywhere from Lower Manhattan to the streets of Cairo. But Operation Pillar of Defense[3] may be the first war to feature direct trash-talking between enemies. “We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead,” came a tweet from the official @IDFspokesperson account last Wednesday. “@IDFspokesperson Our blessed hands will reach your leaders wherever they are (You Opened Hell Gates on Yourselves),” came the reply from @AlQassamBrigade.
It’s not clear who’s running the Qassam Brigade’s twitter feed, but in Israel, the IDF’s social media operation is run by a 26-year-old immigrant from Belgium named Sacha Dratwa. In the past two years, Dratwa[4] has taken a small operation initially created during Operation Cast Lead to streamline the IDF’s YouTube and Facebook presence and turned it into the most globally visible arm of the Israeli military. In the past year, the new media desk has rapidly expanded into new terrain, from commissioning content designed for viral sharing to creating a Foursquare-style game[5] for the IDF blog that rewards frequent visitors to the site with badges. The IDF is also posting video of its drone strikes, starting with the Jabari assassination, as well as of Israelis taking cover during air raids and of Iron Dome units successfully thwarting rockets launched from Gaza.
“The government still has to generate the talking points, what we want to achieve, and then we turn it over to the kids, and they translate it into this new language of social media,” said Daniel Seaman, deputy director general of the Ministry of Public Information and Diaspora Affairs, who ran the government press office during Operation Cast Lead. “I say it’s magic.”
[............]
For Israel, taking the war to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and even Pinterest[6] is a natural outgrowth of the Israeli government’s public diplomacy initiatives, from helping organize seminars[7] to train Israelis to advocate on the country’s behalf over social media networks to underwriting a campaign[8] to improve the image of settlers among bloggers.
[..........] “What we try to do is to be fast and get information out before the old media,” Dratwa told me. “We believe people are getting information from social media platforms and we don’t want them to get it from other sources—we are the ones on the scene, and the old media are not on the scene as are the IDF.”
It’s not immediately clear what concrete impact the IDF’s Twitter battles are having on the course of public opinion. Foreign journalists have been allowed to enter Gaza during Operation Pillar of Defense—a change from Israeli policy during Operation Cast Lead, when foreign journalists were barred from Gaza—resulting in a steady stream of gripping footage and images from the territory. But the IDF boasts 185,150 Twitter followers viewing its stream of videos, photos, and updates, which includes information from the front and frequent reminders[9] of Israel’s ongoing provision of food and medical services to Gazan civilians. “There’s an idea of playing to your base,” said Garth Jowett, a professor specializing in propaganda and media at the University of Houston. “But it’s very hard to change people’s minds with propaganda.”
The IDF’s new media presence was originally the brainchild of Aliza Landes (the American-born daughter of the historian[10] Richard Landes), who was herself only 25 when, as an officer on the IDF’s North American press desk, she piloted the IDF’s first forays into virtual warfare during Operation Cast Lead in the winter of 2008-2009. “In Israel, Facebook had only just opened up, and it was considered a toy for kids,” Landes said. “YouTube was the same. They didn’t think of it as a dissemination tool that could be effective—it was just a way for people to waste time in the office.”
Landes had already written position papers trying to excite her commanders in the spokesman’s office about the possibilities of a more aggressive social media strategy, but it wasn’t until videos she posted on YouTube[11] began to tally up impressive views that they paid attention. Originally, she told me late last week, she had used YouTube as a way to transfer video files to foreign journalists, who were prevented by the Israeli military from entering Gaza during Cast Lead and were in many instances forced to rely on IDF footage. “It wasn’t for public consumption,” Landes said. She soon began posting routine information updates, like statistics on the number of rockets fired, to an IDF blog and, by the time Cast Lead concluded in January, had moved to commissioning original videos from the military film department. “It was sort of my pet project on top of everything else I was supposed to be doing,” Landes said.
In August 2009, Landes succeeded in convincing her superiors to give her a dedicated budget for a new media operation. The first big test came in January 2010, not for a war but after the massive earthquake in Haiti, when Israel dispatched emergency medical staff to the Caribbean island. “People were sending us requests for assistance based on Twitter,” Landes said. “So, it wasn’t just a PR tool, it became a practical rescue tool too.” That summer, Landes was responsible for sending out footage[12] from the controversial Mavi Marmara commando raid and convinced her superiors to give her near real-time access to video.
By the time Landes left later that year, she had a staff of 10 people devoted to putting out polished material in concert with other government ministries–some of which, particularly videos from the widely scrutinized Mavi Marmara episode, wound up giving ammunition to Israel’s critics. “It’s important to be in the conversation,” Landes said. “If you just say, ‘I’m going to cut this out entirely,’ you’re not doing yourself any favors, and in fact you’re doing yourself a disservice.”
And while the IDF’s social media campaign has drawn criticism [13] from those who feel it trivializes war and its consequences, it’s unlikely to be the last of its kind. [........]
Read the rest - The “Kids” Behind IDF Media
Aliza Landes speaks about the power of the social media strategy for Israel
Tags: Allison Hoffman
What wonderful people the Palis are, let’s up their foreign aid checks and nominate them for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Here’s a thought: Israel is probably the onl country in the world that could actually bomb its way to prosperity.
Can the GOP hire these guys?
Urban Infidel wrote:
They are the lowest of the low.
Rodan wrote:
A lot better then the losers the GOP usually uses.
Depends on how pervasive the propaganda is. Obama just won re-election partly because of his pervasive propaganda machine, including the media. Pervasive propaganda creates an image in people’s minds that they mistake for reality.
sorry to go ot
but if I may have the blogs indulgence.
My brother is dying
he will be going home soon
prayers for him and his family
thank you
I posted this on the OOT, but it is appropriate here:
It also comes to a most sensible conclusion on how to procede:
I don’t agree about their citizens, though. In their one free and fair election, the citizens of Gaza chose for Hamas to become their dictators, and they knew very well what they were choosing. You don’t win wars by befriending the enemy. Life isn’t a Disney storyline. You win wars by destroying the enemy’s will and ability to resist.
@ rain of lead:
My condolences.
Iron Fist wrote:
@ rain of lead:
Of course, {{Rain}}. Prayers for your brother and family members.
@ rain of lead:
More prayers for your brother.
Iron Fist wrote:
If the Prof is a lefty, he wouldn’t recognize the constant propaganda assault in his own country.
@ Speranza:
I am carrying over the comments from the last thread since its related. Didn’t DeGaulle cut off Israel after the 6 day war?
@ Speranza:
Here’s more. Disgusting how casual they are with evil. No true human could stomach this.
@ Iron Fist:
@ yenta-fada:
@ Speranza:
thank you
knew this was coming
still……
now that it’s here
suprising how much it hurts
@ rain of lead:
Oh dear. That is terrible news. My condolences.
Rodan wrote:
He cut them off right before the Six Day War broke out. He cut them off either June 2 or June 3 and the war broke out on June 5.
@ rain of lead:
Sorry to hear that.
Excellent post, Speranza. It shows the generational divide in the very important social media, and how the military had to convinced by someone who was essentially, a volunteer.
rain of lead wrote:
I’ve been through it myself. Losing a brother or sister [as in my case] is like having an amputation. My heart breaks for you.
Urban Infidel wrote:
It would be ironic if they were not (and they probably were not) Israeli spies. The paranoia runs deep within Palestinian Islamists.
@ yenta-fada:
general PIMF.
@ rain of lead:
It always hurts when you lose someone you love.
rain of lead wrote:
Oh I know it well.
@ Speranza:
Ah OK, so Buzzsaw was right then. What was his reasoning?
yenta-fada wrote:
The IDF twitter blog is fantastic. Reading the rantings of the Arabists are hysterical. Lauren Booth actually posted on it.
@ rain of lead:
I am so very sorry. How old is he? Of course, prayers for you and yours.
{{tears}}
@ Speranza:
Mohammed was possibly a paranoid schizo. Paranoia runs deep in the Arab psyche as analyzed by bogger Dr. Sanity. Shame and blame.
the tactical problem with Gaza is simple, too simple…the social problem remains killing of innocents and for that there is no good solution without someplace for them to be allowed to go…it’s not a unique or modern problem…so in my mind the way for Israel to proceed is to declare open war with Iran which nobody could argue as unlawful…but they would be overstretched logistically and probably could not prevent Iran blocking the straights…so Israel is fucked without some backup…someone has to watch Turkey and someone has to help provide some horsepower with Iran…if we don’t step up to the plate, this situation will continue for decades…waiting to see how things shake out with Syria or even Iran itself does not really benefit Israel in any way I can see…it’s time for Israel to shake the tree and see what falls out…I suggest a monumental sucker punch to Iran…maybe I’m crazy
@ Speranza:
Oh, no doubt. I posted it, though, to get the parts that I bolded out. In a sane world, Iron Dome wouldn’t be necessary. Any other country in the world would, if inflicted with the random rocket barrages like Israel has been, simply flatten Gaza, round up Hamas, and kill all of them. Only Israel and the United States are expected to take such things.
eaglesoars wrote:
dammit. do I actually have to sign up for twitter now? (Facebook would be unconditional surrender)
Rodan wrote:
Who knows? He was turning Arabist any way and once Algeria got its independence I guess he felt that France needed to repair its relations with the Arab World. If the war had not broken out he still would have moved into the pro Arab camp.
I just checked, the embargo was declared on June 3, 1967 -- two days before the outbreak of the war.
@ rain of lead:
I am so very sorry to hear that. My sincerest condolences.
@ heysoos:
Iran and Hamas are not allies anymore. This is a fight between the Muslim Brotherhood and Israel. So Iran is not involved here except that use to arm Hamas until early this year.
@ Speranza:
Did you see the video at the link? Wow. Nightmarish beyond belief. Reminds me of what we saw in Libya and what we still see in Syria and elsewhere. SAVAGES. And that’s putting it nicely. God will deal with them in the end.
Urban Infidel wrote:
Hillary Clinton ought to be persona non grata in Israel. *rhymes with witch*
heysoos wrote:
And maybe not. The Saudis would LOVE it.
Urban Infidel wrote:
Yes I saw it. I have zero sympathy for Palestinians and feel that they deserve all the misery that comes to them.
@ Speranza:
DeGaulle was trying to position France as the 3rd Global force opposed to both the Soviets and the US. He was supporting of the Non align movement.
@ eaglesoars:
They would love for Iran and Israel to go tit for tat. It makes it easier for the establish the Sunni Caliphate.
heysoos wrote:
Do the Islamists worry about innocent civilians? Absolutely not! Why is Israel being held to a different standard. That is bullshit. Again, you don’t win wars by being nice to your enemies. You win wars by destroying their will and ability to resist. Hamas isn’t happening in a vaccume. The people of Gaza elected them to be their dictator, in the charming fashion Muslim “democracies” do such things. The people of Gaza have chosen this route. Let them, not the citizens of Israel, pay the price.
Urban Infidel wrote:
I’m sure obama would be the first to say how peaceful they are.
@ rain of lead:
Condolences to you and your family.
Iron Fist wrote:
You need a defensive/offensive strategy. Protect your people but keep the other side running, hiding, ducking and afraid.
Charlie Daniels and his excellent post on Israel:
http://www.charliedanielssoapbox.com/view_topic.php?id=10002&forum_id=4
Sourced from somebody Speranza doesn’t like. lol
Rodan wrote:
that’s the sucker punch…I thinks it’s time to stop making petty distinctions between these separate elements…AQ, the MB, Hez, Hamas….when your not dealing with one the other is circling…fuck them all…Israel should pick out the biggest mf at let him have it…that would be Iran and that would likely separate the big dogs from the lesser…it’d all be a hell of a lot easier if we had Israel’s back…they are on their own and personally I think they are going down, but not without a hell of a fight….time to dust off the tac nukes and finish it…if civilians are going to die, I’d kill Iranians first
Iron Fist wrote:
Oh dear heavens yes. Somehow obama got the meme out with the help of the media that propaganda is the truth and the truth is propaganda.
What a sad world we live in when the likes of obama and his thugs are seen a moderate and Romney radical.
heysoos wrote:
“You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace.”
William Tecumseh “War is Hell” Sherman
Rodan wrote:
Yeah pretty much. In his naivete he thought that he could bring Eastern Europe (particularly Poland) over to his side as the “third force” between America/Britain v. the USSR as if Brezhnev would ever allow that to happen. De Gaulle was the very definition of the term “useful idiot”.
@ rain of lead:
I’m very sorry to hear this…may God be with your brother and you and your family.
@ Speranza:
I posted this on the previous thread.
Al-Qaeda admits they joined the fight.
Salafists take responsibility for Gaza rockets
yenta-fada wrote:
Who would that be?
Speranza wrote:
That was essentially Reagan’s planned strategy for the Cold War. Build a missile shield to sit behind, and have our offensive weapons to deal with the Soviets. End the mutual part of mutually assured destruction. Still, every time Israel agrees to a hudna, they are just postponing the inevitible. The only path that leads to peace lies past the mass grave they bury all of Hamas in.
@ heysoos:
OK I gotcha point now!
@ Iron Fist:
I’m always surprised when I hear someone who clearly holds a double standard regarding Israel. It’s not that they hate Israel, it’s just that they have higher expectations for some reason. I don’t get it.
@ Rodan:
Not impressed by distinctions amongst the various nutbag groups. They are all the same Islamic shit.
@ Speranza:
He was a delusional fool.
Speranza wrote:
Debbie Schlussel. Even a broken clock…..
Iron Fist wrote:
Israel needs to rack up a huge body count amongst dead Hamas/IJ terrorists.
Speranza wrote:
They are all working for the same goal. The Caliphate.
@ Speranza:
AQ as well.
yenta-fada wrote:
She’s a psychopath who needs to be on some sort of medication such as zoloft. She is so full of hatred she would make a great Muslim.
Urban Infidel wrote:
Oh but our MSM says that Israel fires on Hamas and kills 11 people including children.
Yep you just can’t make this sh*t up…never mind that Israel is getting bombed daily the media says nothing about this…but oh if Israel defends itself …dear heavens they are killing children!!
It is sickening.
Rodan wrote:
Same shit coming from different behinds.
yenta-fada wrote:
Yet almost to a man they all think Israel is the bad guy. It is a form of double-think. They are holding in their heads to contradictory ideas at the same time. If Israel were the bad guy, this war woudl have been finished long ago. It is because Israel is the good guy that they don’t simply exterminate the Palestinians and move on. They certainly have the war making capacity to do so.
@ Rodan:
Erdogan cries when he talks about the poor Palis. BUT no Muslim state wants them. Wonder why. /////
Rodan wrote:
He should have left office after 1962 -- he would have been considered a great man had he done so.
@ Speranza:
They are all spawn of the Muslim Brotherhood.
rain of lead wrote:
May his passing be easy, may you and your family find comfort for the loss, and may his soul be elevated.
yenta-fada wrote:
He has no tears for the Armenians or Kurds.
@ rain of lead:
{rain} So sorry. May God be with you and yours and your brother.
Speranza wrote:
Or Democrat.
@ Speranza:
Instead he bacame the Charles Johnson/Andrew Sullivan/Chris Matthews of world leaders.
yenta-fada wrote:
Israel itself holds the higher standard…they could easily kill everything that moves in Gaza…ask them why they don’t
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Hey you were right. DeGaulle cut off Israel right before the 6 day war.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Buzz speaks for me as well…
@ heysoos:
Because Charles Johnson would condemn them. He is the most influential man in the world!
@ Lily:
Canadian media (except for Sun Media) ONLY reports dead Pali count endlessly. 7 out of 8 Canadians would have voted for Ozero according to one poll (and complicit media)
yenta-fada wrote:
Shame and blame and a warped sense of honor. Whatever is good is evil and whatever is evil is good in that culture. It’s amazing how many people support their murderous ways.
Rodan wrote:
That’s what I get for having been around back then and having something of a memory.
heysoos wrote:
You are dreaming if you think obama is going to step up to the plate concerning Iran or helping Israel. Israel is in a very scary place right now with NO ONE TO HAVE THEIR BACK. They were waiting on our elections in hope that obama would be voted out…he wasn’t and with that all hopes of the U.S. doing anything for Israel other than stab them in the back is mute.
surgical strikes and smart weapons perpetuate the problem. now there is a reasonable expectation of ‘measured response’ and using proportional action. the expectation comes from the population who do not understand that often, violence and war IS the answer.
if you surgically lop off the head of islamoterrordeath inc., then islamoterrordeath inc. just grows another head. the next guy steps up. if you level where islamoterrordeath inc lives and are brutal enough, the ‘civilian’ population will stop supporting islamoterrordeath inc. brutality and responses that are totally not proportional will work.
surgical strikes are just that, surgical. surgery is designed to save the patient.
they fire a rocket, you level the 4 square blocks where it came from. they kill one of yours, you kill a dozen dozen of theirs. car bombs should be met with 50 fold 500lb bombs.
Lily wrote:
That’s why I think Islam is the religion that will give birth to the anti-Christ. It is an evil religion, glorifying that which is profane and profaning that which should be glorified. It is no wonder the Leftists like it so much. Their minds are twisted like that, too.
Lily wrote:
I didn’t suggest what Obama might do…probably nothing which is the gist of the post
BBC reporting from Gaza on my classical music radio station. UGH. Making peace with Muslims is on the same level as believing that the Europeans are on the edge of solving their economic problems. Or, for that matter, that the US intends to have a balanced budget and pay off the debt. TinkerBell for president!
@ yenta-fada:
Or that Charles Johnson, Andrew Sullivan and Chris Matthews are sane!
Speranza wrote:
There are no meds for a psychopath…none whats-so-ever.
Rodan wrote:
LOL. You can start the list, but you can’t ever finish it!
Rodan wrote:
Yes that is the head of the snake. Yet obama took them off the terrorist list. Insanity at it’s best. Willful insanity at that too.
@ yenta-fada:
Islam means submission in Arabic. They are either at your throat or at your feet. It is the only way their world-view has to relate to you. For me, it is better for them to be at my feet than at my throat. Crush them, drive them into submission. Break their will and ability to resist. That is the only way to win a war.
Buzz…last night you asked my what an ‘average GOP’ voter is…I was replying, got called away and never finished…but I thought about it and decided there really is no ‘average’ voter and maybe not even typical voter beyond a few basics which would really describe no one….maybe someone else could describe who I mean better than I can…but ‘average’ does not work well
Later.
@ coldwarrior:
Today we agree completely
@ Lily:
No, Obama isn’t insane. He’s on the terrorists’ side. It is very simple. He even stated that if it came to a choice, he was with the terrorists. He simply didn’t call them “terrorists”, just like he didn’t call Benghazi terrorism for a couple of weeks.
Israeli kids playing “Code Red” in the park.
waldensianspirit wrote:
indeed.
Iron Fist wrote:
I suggested back in 07-08 that the IDF should drive the Gaza population to the SW, dearming anyone and destroying what they deemed necessary behind them…all the way to Egypt, then destroy everything in the Phily corridor…Mubarak was not happy with Gaza at the time and might have actually helped…no more weapons, no more tunnels, and a bunch of dead militants
Iron Fist wrote:
I have no doubt either..and many others think the same. That is one twisted religion..I don’t even consider it a religion it hides behind being a religion to garner sympathy. They should receive no sympathy. And to all the people who think all religions are the same …need to read up on some history …not all religions are the same in the least bit.
Rodan wrote:
I saw a guy named Toure on PMSNBC a few minutes ago. He is a smirky young jackass who refers to Netanyahu’s “bellicosity”. What is S.E. Cupp doing on that network?
@ heysoos:
Obama is going to do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Pay more homage to the muslim brotherhood if anything.
yenta-fada wrote:
Yeah that list would be indeed long.
@ yenta-fada:
Plenty of crazies out there.
Iron Fist wrote:
Oh I know he isn’t insane…which is why I put willfull insanity..or in other words a psychopath. I should have just used that term.
@ Lily:
The Muslim Brotherhood is a pro-Democracy Secular organization. Just ask the State Department and John McCain!
Speranza wrote:
He’s a complete jackass and a fraud. Went to elite private schools in NYC and told everyone at university his name is French.
It is. It’s French for Buckwheat
@ Speranza:
Toure is an a scumbag. He’s a stupid music commenter who is now a political expert.
@ eaglesoars:
He’s a hipster!
Rodan wrote:
How they got this to past through is beyond me..if I know what the muslim brotherhood is all about then by all means our State Dept. or security depts should know a helluva lot more. This stinks and it is very sad that our country lets muslim brotherhood representives into the White House. The enemy is within now.
Rodan wrote:
I think he started out covering the rap scene for Rolling Stone. Now he gets trotted out whenever we need to be told what’s ‘authentic’
Toure is a lawn jockey.
Did y’all see this? Suddenly when it is her taxes going up, Susan Estrich isn’t so hot on the idea:
Should have thought of that before you pulled the lever. I have no pity for her. Indeed, I hope they tax her ass off. If they could pass a tax just on Liberals, I’d be enthusiastically for it. What did this dumb broad think she was voting for? Obama made it loud and clear that if he were re-elected taxes would be going up, especially for people in her tax bracket. She kept quiet about it until after the election. She should shut up and pay her fair share.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/19/inside-the-beltway-shalom-america/
Another must read on Israel.
The longer the Gaza thing goes on, the better my proposal of stampeding 10,000 Arkansas razorback hogs from the north of Gaza to its southern border looks.
eaglesoars wrote:
Our media has truly gone to hell in a handbasket…not like I didn’t know to begin with but the crazy goes on each and every day it seems it’s on steroids now.
@ eaglesoars:
Rubio know more about Rap Music than he does. As some who used to DJ Rap and listen to that genre, Rubio really know his stuff here. In fact, Rubio is more down with Hip Hop than Obama.
Iron Fist wrote:
I saw that earlier. First time I’ve laughed since Nov 6
As many of us have said -- let them suffer the consequences of what they voted for.
‘suffer’ being the operative word
Iron Fist wrote:
Did you see in that bit that every other damn thing that the brainless twit said was “worry”. That’s all there is to libs now. Worry and revenge. Sick.
@ Mars:
She also made it clear that what was important to her was the government taking care of everything. Where the hell did she think the money was coming from?
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Just drop Charles Johnson, Andrew Sullivan and Chris Matthews in the Middle of Gaza, that would clear the place out!
@ Iron Fist:
“he ended the war in Iraq and is committed to ending the war in Afghanistan.”…
this statement means different things to different people…ending the war in Iraq was already in motion and he did little with Astan until summer of 09 when he sent in 30k more targets to get shot at
@ Rodan:
I dislike both genres and I don’t really care about ‘scenes’.
@ Mars:
The choice in the election was between Freedom and Slavery, and she voted for Slavery. I hope they make a designer set of shackles just for her.
eaglesoars wrote:
He went to Morgan Academy. He comes across like an elitist with that smirk of his.
Rodan wrote:
Just like Charles Johnson.
Rodan wrote:
!Rubio en realidad es un moreno, no es un rubio! Si su nombre es una mentira, ?como se puede creer sus palabras?
Lily wrote:
Oh, by the old definition he is insane. But, on this issue he’s insane in the way of the old saying.
@ Iron Fist:
I actually like Susan Estrich.
@ heysoos:
He way upped the body count in Afghanistan, and now is comitted to cutting and running. He told the Taliban almost to the day how long they have to hold on to beat us. That is like giving the enemy your plans wrapped around three cigars. With that they should be able to beat you.
Rodan wrote:
Hamas kills homosexuals.
Iron Fist wrote:
It’s just like the press. They love totalitarianism, right up until they are the ones lined up against the wall.
Speranza wrote:
Susan Estrich is to Hillary Clinton as 2% milk is to the real thing.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
El apelleido no eas culpa del!
Speranza wrote:
I’ve never really cared for her. Always seemed her thought only ran about one level deep. This article just confirmed it.
@ Iron Fist:
Right here is what is telling.
Obama made it loud and clear about division …remember dumbo obama voter he spoke of revenge and ever since he was elected in 2008 this country has been extremely divided but you ..you crazy broad thought he would unite us? He made it very clear about what he was about. Not to meniton you lunatic broad you thought their was a war on women? In all of God’s green earth what in the hell is the color of the sky you live in? I have no pity for you at all …it is people like you who had ears to hear..but didn’t believe what you were hearing..it was all Republican propaganda now wasn’t it? You had eye’s to see but did not see..because Romney was a radical in your opinion. No the radical was obama ..he is not a centrist, he does not care about you, he does not care about this country but you ..you blithering fool voted again for him. It’s people like you that make me sick.
@ Speranza:
I don’t have any use for Liberals. This woman clearly didn’t pay attention to the election, she just voted in the way that made her feel good. I’ll give Obama this: he was very up-front about the fact that if re-elected he’d raise taxes on the upper middle class and small businesses. Yeah, he called that the “wealthy”, but he even quantified it as making over $250K. I am sure this woman makes over a million dollars a year. She should have listened to her man-god. He said he was going to tax her ass off.
eaglesoars wrote:
You may not, but alot of people my age and younger do. The fact Rubio knows what is important in connecting with the popular culture.
Lily wrote:
During the campaign, Obama admitted he was lousy at math. But he’s sure as hell into long division.
Speranza wrote:
Allow me to fix that. When Michael Kinsley was editor of the Los Angeles Times editorial page, she wrote an article -- I’ve forgotten where _ that excoriated him for not hiring more women. After she got done with the quota-by-gender smack down, she suggested his poor judgement was due to his Parkinson’s disease.
She’s a nasty piece of work
Iron Fist wrote:
Superman couldn’t beat the Talis, forever…I have a lot of respect for those guys…they are rugged, fearless and worse, never ending…they cannot be defeated in any conventional sense
Mars wrote:
Think? God heavens they bought hook, line and sinker the media propaganda. Disgusting.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121116/15274721078/denver-news-crew-accidentally-livens-up-broadcast-with-inappropriate-image-borrowed-web.shtml
I thought the press was well known for their research skill? ROFL, this is hilarious.
@ Speranza:
Sullivan loves them!
@ heysoos:
The Taliban are chickenshit, we just are not allowed to go kill them.
@ eaglesoars:
never knew that!
@ bluliner10:
I was about to say Sure you can beat them. You can kill them all if you have to. But your ROE have to let your troops kill the enemy. Obama isn’t allowing that, and it has gotten people killed. I know I don’t need to tell you that, but it needed to be said.
eaglesoars wrote:
Susan Estrogen is another of the army of Phony Pheminists that inphest the Democratic party—a legion currently headed by the Twin Medusas Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Nancy Pelosi.
@ bluliner10:
@ bluliner10:
I disagree…killing them is very expensive, then the next season they are back in force…to kill all the Talis you’d have to fully occupy two very rugged countries and commit every last resource against them…it’s not feasible….the corrupt ROE are not the problem
Iron Fist wrote:
This election cycle he let his mask slip more than once and people didn’t see it? I’m sorry she quotes word for word why a lot of people voted for obama. Yet did they listen to Romney …oh hell no because he ran a a negative campaign…when in reality obama went all negative. These people have no critical thinking …they are willfull idiots.
Mars wrote:
And that is the most appalling part. After four more years of Obama, we will have so much debt that it will be such a drag on the economy that we’ll never be able to get out from under it. Not even if we raise taxes through the roof and cut spending to the bone. We are simply waiting for interest rates to go up. When that happens (and it is inevitable that it will happen), we are well and truly fucked.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
LOL isn’t that the truth.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
SSSSSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PIG!
heysoos wrote:
We most certainly can defeat those guys…it is the ROE’s that are hurting our ability to defeat them. I give absolutely nothing to them neither respect which is way out of line or even to call them fearless. They kill, they murder …how many women and children have died at their bloody hands? Sorry they are cowards and the absurd ROE’s are what are killing our soldiers…our soldiers are who should be given respect because our president certainly does not.
@ rain of lead:
Ahh Rain, (((((((Rain)))))) Sorry
bluliner10 wrote:
No kidding they use children wired up with bombs to go up to our soldiers handing out candy to the children to blow our soldiers up.
Oh indeed we could defeat them in a heart-beat..obama doesn’t want that. We had them on the run at the end of Bush’s term and during obama’s term they have regained strength.
@ Lily:
@ Lily:
tactically, of course they can be defeated…I just read where 400 of them threw themselves against 53 Marines and got cut to pieces…that’s not my point, which is their remarkable tenacity, their durability and the fact that they will always and forever will be around to fight…decimate them, occupy their ground for 50 years and when you leave they will be there ready to kill again….it’s a loser
heysoos wrote:
Ask any soldier who has been there the ROE are the problem.
@ heysoos:
salt the earth.
then the taliban dies.
@ coldwarrior:
White Light therapy!
@ rain of lead:
My sincere condolences, rain.
@ heysoos:
YOu’d be surprised what you can do if you are willing to kill all the adults and take the kids to be raised in civilized society. The Taliban are fueled by money raised by cultivating Opium poppies. You could start by having a systamatic campaign to burn all the fields.
heysoos wrote:
Well of course when you coddle them and then tell them when you are leaving and then apologize to them because our soldiers burned some korans that were being used to tranfer information to each other and when you have a president that is basically telling them our plans. Sorry ..no we could beat them easily …but hey winning hearts and minds is more important to our preezy.
Iron Fist wrote:
I’m sure we could come up with some leftover Agent Orange.
@ heysoos:
take away their political and supply support system and they die.
of course that means doing things that wouldnt be real popular…
they are true believers, but even true believers need to eat food and drink clean water.
@ Speranza:
Centuries of inbreeding and mohammedan brain virus has turned them into Orcs. To all intents and purposes, they have ceased to be people.
@ Lily:
have you read my posts?…I’ve agreed about the ROE….that’s not the only problem and maybe the least…if you are correct why aren’t the Girl Scouts fighting them?…we use up precious expensive Special Ops and Recon Marines to kill them…we can run up a good body count and we have, then what?….they fuck, they reproduce, they come back….it’s a complex, strategic problem, not a tactical….how do we hold the passes into Pakistan in the winter?….how do we get the millions of tons of fuel up there?…we have to use donkeys and horses, just like they do…how many ultra valuable Recon, Ranger and SO guys are you willing to sacrifice?….the cream of our forces…if the Talis are defeated, then what?…I say, give them up and get out….calling them chickenshit pussies is not a solution
Alberta Oil Peon wrote:
“You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?”
This is disgusting this is America with obama as president. I would have fired them ….not unpaid leave.
http://weaselzippers.us/2012/11/20/women-post-picture-of-them-flipping-off-tomb-of-the-unknown-soldier-at-arlington-national-cemetery-shocked-to-find-people-not-happy/
coldwarrior wrote:
right, in otherwise occupy the ground..at what cost in lives?…for how long?….I care less about ‘defeating’ the Taliban than I care about our own people….that’s my point….let Astan defeat them if they can
@ coldwarrior:
CW, my theory is for Israel to target and destroy the wealthiest homes in Gaza, and there are plenty of them. First, most of them probably are occupied by people with Hamas/jihad connections, or they wouldn’t have become wealthy in the first place. Secondly, you get the wealthy, influential paleos concerned about their very survival, and they might pressure Hamas to stop firing rockets. Third, it’s pretty hard for pali propandists to spin this as kiling “innocent poor people”.
@ heysoos:
Why do you always ask about my reading comprehension? Of course I read your posts..you drop a bomb and then move the goal posts. You said they were fearless fighters and brave and can never be defeated. I say we can defeat them and listed reasons why we aren’t defeating them. The problem is with obama as CiC. So I have no problem in pulling them out because with obama at the helm no we will not defeat them and he doesn’t want to defeat them. The military has learned a lot at how to fight them …the problem is our government doesn’t let our military fight them. Do you read what I post?
islam has destroyed afghanistan.
It is not possible to “save” a majority muslim country.
@ heysoos:
Oh and by the way quote..unquote you said,
“The ROE are not the reason why we can’t defeat them.”
Lily wrote:
The only Rules of Engagement ought to be “Kill the enemy”.
Prebanned wrote:
Nope you can’t save it…but you can defeat it.
@ Alberta Oil Peon:
destroy the political and supply support structure and the enemy dies.
Speranza wrote:
Yep…but they can’t fire unless fired upon…that is idiotic.
@ heysoos:
Shit. Sure you can. Simply kill every last one. Rinse and repeat. Now that may mean invading the country en masse, setting up a military dictatorship, and brutally suppressing all muslims. So far, I fail to see a down side.
@ Lily:
We had our boots on the throat of the taliban, Obama changed everything.
I supported the war because I really wanted to give Afghanistan a chance to rejoin civilization.
Obama changed all that and I realized that the Afghan population supports the taliban so there is nothing to save then from.
We should have blown every powerplant and bridge in the country.
Lily wrote:
Obama said from the very beginning that victory wasn’t his object in Afghanistan. The Taliban heard him loud and clear.
Lily wrote:
you listed one reason the ROE which I agreed with…but you didn’t say what those were or how to improve them….the fight In Astan is not so much about Obama, it’s way over his head…I give solutions…what is your long term solution to defeating the Taliban and why are they so important to you?
@ Prebanned:
Obama did change everything…we did have our boots to their throats. Right now we are building roads and they are blowing them up..and then we rebuild the road and again they blow it up. This nation building on our part is a waste of money. Under obama the taliban is more stronger than it was before.
Alberta Oil Peon wrote:
I agree…but it’s not the choice I’d favor
Iron Fist wrote:
Indeed…obama is
broder-linetreasonous here.MacDuff wrote:
All you need to know of Islam you can learn by witnessing the fruits thereof.
@ heysoos:
I’m for getting the hell out. The savages will turn on each other. We are broke and need to stop this nation building crap.
Speranza wrote:
And anyone helping the enemy.
Rodan wrote:
for sure…they are much better at killing other Muslims than us and they will…I see no reason to deny them the opportunity, just get out of the way….defeating the Taliban over and over again is useless and extremely expensive…why do it?….just to prove we can?
@ heysoos:
What in the hell is this? You gave no reasons …you said they can’t be defeated I listed reasons why we are not defeating them. You gave no solutions…in fact all you said was pull out. We are going to pull out and when we do they will be more emboldened and stronger than ever before because they think we are weak. I have said our military has learned how to fight the taliban but our government will not let lose the dogs of war on the taliban. So to defeat the taliban we need a new president (which isn’t happening) and for another why don’t you ask someone who has been in the wars over there for solutions. You dropped a bomb on how brave, strong and fearless the taliban is and how they cannot be defeated. That I had a problem with…other than moving the goal posts and questioning my ability to read you gave no solutions.
@ heysoos:
I never said the taliban was important to me…they are scum of the earth…you need to read some books about what they are really about..raping boys, raping children, killing children and women oh they are true warriors/NOT.
@ Lily:
they can be defeated tactically as many times as we want, we cannot defeat them strategically which I’ve made my point clear….it’s hardly a bomb that they are brave, industrious, and tough as hell…you just disagree…if they are such a pushover then why are we having this discussion?
I was no longer a General David Petraeus fan after I read about his politically correct ROE for our guys in Afghanistan which was getting more and more of them killed and maimed.
Geraldo Rivera twice has claimed that David Petraeus was our best general since Eisenhower. Obviously the putz has never read about General Matthew B. Ridgway.
Rodan wrote:
With obama as CiC yeah we need to get out. I do not disagree with this and stated this above.
Lily wrote:
they killed kids before we got there and will kill kids again after we leave…how long do you want to hang around and kill them?…forever?
heysoos wrote:
As long as they had sanctuary in Pakistan we could never win the campaign.
@ heysoos:
You brought it up. Again. I’m not repeating myself.
The taliban can be defeated. Right now we don’t have the time or money to do it.
There is one reason for us to keep killing off our enemies over there. If we don’t eventually there will be a caliphate. It has already begun. Should we be nation building? Once I thought it was possible, but since no one is willing to do what needs to be done first it can’t be. Unless we are willing to execute all the imams and teachers, and maybe even everyone over the age of 15, then we cannot reteach and retrain the young in the ways of freedom.
So no, no more nation building. But, it will be required to occasionally bomb certain areas back into the stone age.
One thing I learned while over there is this: they love to kill each other, but that is only a hobby between times of killing us. It is their “religious” imperative to kill all the non-believers first, then they feel they will have time to weed out those that don’t believe exactly the same as they do.
Remember what I was told. “We love you Americans, it’s a shame we have to kill and enslave all of you that won’t convert.” And that was from our “allies” in Saudi.
Speranza wrote:
it’s an intolerable insult…in my mind a great general does not put his men at risk unless victory is imminent from those choices…this guy is way over rated
heysoos wrote:
Do you have a problem reading my posts? Because I said with obama as CiC we need to leave. It is a lose-lose situation …
Speranza wrote:
Patton would look at a map, look at the logistics and say no fucking way…I’m not putting my boys up there…go around them and let them starve
@ Speranza:
Geraldo and most of the press who speak highly of General Petraeus are mistaken. General Mattis is twice the man, was responsible for most of the COIN doctrine which is recycled from the Marine Small Wars Manual. Petraeus was the baby of SoD Gates.
@ Lily:
Here’s a giggle for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hUFL2GT1-2g
Da_Beerfreak wrote:
Well that might include our own president.
Lily wrote:
yes I read your posts, and will again state it’s not BO’s war to win….the problems are way more significant than ROE….3000 US Cavalry troops could not defeat Geronimo’s 35 warriors…it’s that kind of a deal…blame BO all you want
http://www.nysun.com/national/romneys-gifts-remark-is-rooted-in-a-nobel-prize/88084/
Interesting analysis.
BTW not happy with Jindal for his criticism of Romneys comments about gifts. I know he’s looking toward 2016, but we need to quit this backstabbing bullshit, especially since Romney was largely correct.
Rubio needs commended for defending Romneys comments.
@ Lily:
heh…good one
you are certainly tenacious
@ yenta-fada:
LOL!
heysoos wrote:
Ol’ Blood ‘n’ Guts would recoil at a war in which victory is a somewhat nebulous concept.
And yes, the taliban can be defeated. It does not require the large numbers of Special Operators we are using. We can do it with regular infantry. Our casualties now come from infiltration or by IED, very few from gunfights as the Taliban rarely stays long enough to get into gunfights and they really dislike the Marines. Helmand Province is the least prefered destination for them, because the Marines will go after them.
@ Mars:
Why thank-you Mars for that post.
@ bluliner10:
And thank you too for that post.
Mars wrote:
It’s the traditional Republican circular firing squad, designed to get rid of the bastards responsible for our defeat.
heysoos wrote:
Why thank you and yes I am.
MacDuff wrote:
so would Sherman, whom I’m no fan off…this is the legacy of American warfare…Astan was a big mistake for Bush and a bigger mistake for BO…going up to Tora Bora and knocking the shit out of everything was the right thing to do…we should have pulled out after that
Mars wrote:
Jindal is catching a lot of flak here in Louisiana…he is more out of state than in state.
bluliner10 wrote:
Geraldo Rivera has not only never been in the military but has never studied military history.
@ Lily:
No problems. What got lost is we forgot our purpose for being there. Iraq went from victory to surrender in a few months. And we are going to withdraw from Afghanistan, because nobody wants to define what victory is, and will not allow us to pursue that objective. So instead we engage when engaged and we assume far more casualties for our lack of aggressiveness.
heysoos wrote:
On the battlefield Major General George Henry Thomas was Sherman’s superior -- by far. Sherman was too excitable, Maj. Gen. Thomas was unshakable.
@ heysoos:
Now why don’t you ask a few of the guys in the military or who have served in the military what their thoughts are concerning this?
@ MacDuff:
Yeah, I’m sure Romney doesn’t feel bad as it is-hey, let’s have the GOP pile on him!
Speranza wrote:
Well, he has been shot at……but so has 50-Cent.
heysoos wrote:
Okay this is rather odd..because after 9/11 we should have done what? Put up a wanted poster and suck our thumbs???? We were attacked.
MacDuff wrote:
Geraldo Rivera wishes he was shot at.
bluliner10 wrote:
I couldn’t agree more.
Lily wrote:
the accelerating rate of suicide in our ranks says it all to me…get out, rehab our guys and let the Taliban have their mountain lair…one Marine is worth 100 Talis…or more, you cannot measure it
livefreeor die wrote:
From what I can tell the answers they are looking for are not only inward but outward too. For one the media was a huge problem.
Lily wrote:
I’ve given my thoughts.
We learned from Russias mistakes. We could have put the taliban in its grave forever, but first we decided to pussyfoot around with our “ally” Pakistan. Second we put up an untenable ROE. Third our dear leader allowed the taliban to know exactly when we would be giving up. When your foe knows when you are leaving they know they just have to pull back hostilities until you’re gone.
The fact from the ground was this: The taliban was done. They were routed into the mountains and we were destroying them even in their holes. They had never dealt with the level of defeat that we were presenting them. Our country and our leadership lost the stomach for the job.
Pakistan was our enemy. They needed treated as such.
As for the Afghan people, they did what all muzz do when the chips are down. They would side with whomever could do them the most harm. Everytime it looked like the taliban was coming back into an area, they would work with them. When the taliban left the area they would work with us.
The only way to stop the taliban is utter destruction.
Lily wrote:
the mistake for GB was not going into Astan, the mistake was not getting out…he dropped the ball into BO’s lap who proceeded to really fuck it up
heysoos wrote:
I have already said under obama yes we need to get out..but obama shouldn’t have told the enemy when we were leaving. Whether you believe it or not the military doesn’t like their CiC…morale is down and ROE are absurd if you don’t let them fight you basically letting them get killed.
heysoos wrote:
You know very little about the military.
We always have accelerating rates of suicide. It has less to do with the situation than it has to do with the long deployments.
During desert storm we had serious problems with suicide. Guess the group hardest hit in the Air Force? The cops. We were dropping like flies. Not the ones deployed though, the ones at their home bases were offing themselves. Turns out that 12-14 hour shifts, no days off, and random training exercises took a higher toll than war deployments.
@ Mars:
He isn’t asking you hey is asking me for solutions…and thank you for that post.
@ Lily:
yes, I’ve been saying that for five years now…at one point I was all alone suggesting we get the hell out of there..at LGf that is…I have always opposed any lingering presence in Astan…it’s not about presidents and their twisted ideology, it’s about our fighting men
@ 7 rain of lead: My prayers for your and your brother.
Mars wrote:
thanks…when I need to know military matters, I’ll come to you
@ heysoos:
Okay so to protect our fighting men we should not let them fight?
This is circular thinking. Sorry this makes no sense to me. Ask Mars or others here who have served…
@ heysoos:
I think I understand where you are coming from, but again we have lost our way. Let’s look at the attack on Camp Bastion. 16 Taliban killed, 2 Marines killed. The talib’s got a couple lucky mortar rounds and when they pressed their advantage they got slaughtered. Not by our infantry, but by logistics clerks, sysadmins, cooks, helicopter mechanics and aviation technicians. However, they were Marines.
As far as the suicide rates, it is not as driven by OIF/OEF as many want to presume. Plenty of them come across without service in either conflict. This problem goes much deeper, and the rate of suicides stays consistent with the civilian populace, we are not teaching proper coping techniques to our children. De-emphasizing winning and losing, standing up for ourselves, leaves an entire generation of victims.
civil rights….
for turkeys.
@ coldwarrior:
Those poor turkeys, if we did not eat them, perhaps one of them may have cured cancer.
bluliner10 wrote:
cant make a turducken without a turkey.
bluliner10 wrote:
How true, or become President of the United States.
We have broken the Turkey barrier with BHO.
Lily wrote:
right, we should not let them fight in Astan…we did, we clobbered them bad and then it all went political….there is only a razor’s edge between politics and warfare…BO took away that edge so it’s time to move on…our fighting men and women are our most precious resource by far…wasting even one is beyond words…we have a fair amount of military wreckage here at home, and for what?…some fucking political maneuver?…killing every Tali on the planet is not worth it
coldwarrior wrote:
Civil rights for turkeys? We as a nation place more value on a turkey than a human being…oh and by the way don’t humans need to eat? Oh that is a pesky little problem now isn’t? We have a nation full of nuts.
@ bluliner10:
hard to disagree with that…good point
@ 166 heysoos: one has to convince them to burn their own Korans I would think. Only way to win that war. Otherwise you are right. We fight superficially in a country the other side of the globe. Logistics will just be tough. One shouldn’t chop a weed off at ground level and think it won’t ever grow back.
@ 168 Lily: I wouldn’t fire them. I would make them read some history and plant some flowers and be the unknown soldier rep at the company and in that community. They can quit if they want.
heysoos wrote:
Sorry not really following you here… ask buliner10 who has answered your questions and Mars has answered your questions…yet you keep throwing these at me….look under obama he has mucked this up so badly it is beyond belief.
@ heysoos:
We’re debating bro! Free speech means we can disagree and still get along…unless you’re progressive…later all…
darkwords wrote:
That was beyond the pale…that people would do that. I’d make sure they scrubbed the concrete daily to keep it clean..and they can’t make an ounce of noise.
bluliner10 wrote:
I’m hiding behind my old Richard Nixon mask…remember those?
what a hoot…
@ bluliner10:
Later bluliner10!
@ rain of lead:
Rain,
My sincere condolences. It sucks and I really feel for you. I hope you can spend some good, special time with your brother before he dies. There’s not much people can say to make it better. Focus on the good memories and the good stories about him. Good luck. My thoughts are with you.
heysoos wrote:
i have on of those! i wear it every year when i hand out candy at Halloween.
coldwarrior wrote:
I have both a Nixon and Carter mask…vintage from those days
Nixon mask…
http://images.google.com/imgres?q=nixon+masks&num=10&hl=en&tbo=d&biw=1080&bih=552&tbm=isch&tbnid=JFvCKYRu9DmXJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.halloweenunlimited.com/index.php%3Fmain_page%3Dindex%26cPath%3D38_39_40_41_59_60&docid=QvznFabrLpUslM&imgurl=http://www.halloweenunlimited.com/images/Richard%252520Nixon%252520Mask.jpg&w=500&h=714&ei=zQisULOCEMaryQHiioCADQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=589&sig=100557172617182790092&page=1&tbnh=147&tbnw=96&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:20,s:0,i:152&tx=50&ty=107
@ heysoos:
that’s the one!!!
coldwarrior wrote:
shortly after Watergate proved itself…poor Richard went from president to celebrity con within a pretty short time…I sense that something like that may be in BO’s future…I really do…Watergate was mostly about non mortal issues, whereas Libya might prove different…but Watergate was HUGE fun, unprecedented behavior who’s tentacles spread far and wide….the original breakin was just the fuse
heysoos wrote:
You can’t believe that for a moment. It was a running joke at the time that Nixon was just the first President stupid enough to get caught.
Mars wrote:
yeah I thought better…nothing in govt is really unprecedented, but getting caught and the resulting crater was a new thing for my generation…from that day on, I never trusted the feds…I hate the feds and that’s where it began….a lot of corruption tangent to Watergate was exposed…I loved it
@ rain of lead:
My condolences.
http://www.explosm.net/articles/42202/
Rodan wrote:
Cognitive dissonance.
coldwarrior wrote:
Bullshit.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
i was waiting for you to see that one!
I weep for turkeys everywhere…especially gay, black, she turkey’s…
oh, the humanity
heysoos wrote:
prez coldwarrior would have prepped the bird and had it in the oven in less than 30 minutes…right in front of the cameras.
Lily wrote:
I think I would fire them, if they would dishonor the men and women that died for thier country there is no way they would do the right thing in thier career.
Unless they are just stupid, in that case you would have to let them go before they got hurt at work.