Once again, we find ourselves in that all too familiar territory, having reached that old smelly can we’d previously kicked down the road. Each time we reach it, it smells just a little worse, and each time we kick it, it travels a shorter distance. The last time this can was kicked, our national leaders promised that we would end this self destructive game, once and for all, if we only looked the other way while they collectively shirked their responsibility. Wild cuts in spending are scheduled to take place, as well as an increase in tax rates that will take us back to those rates paid during the 1990′s. All in all, hysteria aside, this is something or nation needs, and would be an overall positive thing for our economy. The problem of course is that we’ll not see it, at least not in a lasting form.
What we will see, sometime in January would be my guess, will be an agreement whereby once again those tax rates will go up immediately, for increased spending today, followed by wildly optimistic cuts which will be scheduled to occur 8 to 10 years from now, but will never actually occur. It will be heralded as a bipartisan compromise that will save the taxpayers Trillions of dollars, even though the magic of base line budgeting will allow a net increase in spending to be reported to us poor saps as a, “cut.”
There are so many fallacies in this scenario, that unfortunately I believe whole heartedly will take place exactly as I’ve described, that I do not know where to begin. First, we are still waiting for the budget cuts agreed upon in the 1982 Ronald Reagan budget deal to actually happen. Maybe if we get those, I’ll be a believer. The problem is however, that we have had that particular dance more than a few times since 1982, with the GOP being promised to have spending reigned in at some agreed upon future date, while accepting an increase in taxation rates immediately, and then watching that agreed upon date come and go with nary a cut in anything. How many times will we agree to having Lucy Van Pelt hold the football for us before we get wise to the gag? My guess is that this year won’t be that year.
Tax rates are meaningless when discussing the concept of what our taxes are. Government spending is equal to taxation. If our tax rates deliver $1.1 Trillion less in revenue than what our government spends, we have not saved anything. Those taxes will merely be paid, by us, in some other form. After all, I have not seen anyone willing to make up this difference out of some form of benevolence. There is no Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or Genie being rubbed out of a lamp who will be taking up this slack. Listen to me when I tell you, accepting increases in the taxation rates should be acceptable, provided they are coupled with sharp decreases in spending on everything but defense which would start immediately. Since our real taxation is represented by what is spent, this would be the same thing as a tax cut, even if it won’t be labeled as such, and would have the same effect on our economy as a tax cut as well. Conversely, if I hold your tax rates the same, but force you to spend more for gasoline, groceries, or acne medication, you may very well perceive it as not having your taxes raised, but the effects on our wallet and our economy will be just as devastating.
Then there’s this little fallacy, which may be my favorite of all. The idea that raising tax rates, on any group, will increase federal revenues has been disproven throughout history, and was even called out as being foolish by Maynard Keynes himself. How many times must we pull out the Laffer Curve to combat this idiocy? Raising rates has not ever resulted in an increase in revenue, but sharp decreases have been the result instead. This has been the case, each and every time, in each and every society, anywhere or any time it has been tried. Conversely, decreases in tax rates has always resulted in large tangible increases in revenue raised. Not just once in a while, but anywhere, at any time in history, this has been the case. Yet here we are in 2012, and the political rhetoric is given to us with the same fallacious assumption, as if it were true, and as if it weren’t the opposite of every historical precedent that we can use as a reference throughout the entirety of recorded history.
With all of this in mind, please also realize, before you eviscerate John Boehner, that the Republicans control one half of one third of our Government. To be precise, the Republicans control the House only, and in the end, controlling only the Chamber of Congress known incidentally as the lower chamber is not a position of strength. There will be some capitulation that occurs in January or February on this entire budget deal. The question is, what will they hold out for. If you believe that keeping tax rates where they are is the big victory that we should seek, I would submit that you need to go back and read up on your economics lessons. Tax rates will be what they will be, but the true form of taxation that we really pay is entirely represented by a government’s spending. That’s the victory we should be seeking.
I am not saying that John Boehner and the House Republicans should not be held accountable for what happens next, only that they should be held accountable for the real prize, which is getting out of control spending under control. If they fail on that front, then let’s eviscerate them. After all, government spending is constitutionally within the House’s purview.
Cross Posted from Musings of a Mad Conservative.
The GOP needs to grow a spine and tell Obama and his little criminal enterprise, including the Congressional Democrats, that they will not entertain any tax rate hikes unless and until a spending reduction plan is presented. No more of this “we’ll let you know.” Then, for all that’s holy, carry the damn message on the media -- if you’re asked why you want the spending plan first, tell them -- they pulled this crap with Reagan, they pulled it with Bush 41 -- give us a tax hike and we’ll cut spending. They got the tax hike. They never cut spending.
You know, like when they told Reagan that if he approved amnesty, they’d close the border. That worked out real well.
sure are alot of smart people around here (mot me)…good writers and thinkers, and another excellent post
@ heysoos:
Don’t sell yourself short, amigo. I think you could do a great topic thread yourself.
@ Carolina Girl:
I agree, none of this 10 year out type of cuts. We need cuts now.
@ heysoos:
Hey check out the previous post. It’s up your alley!
Carolina Girl wrote:
probably, but I prefer to lurk mostly…I’m a practical guy and solution oriented…this site is less a constant bitchfest, and more about solving problems…I do like to bitch a bit tho…arrggg!
Rodan wrote:
already surfed it over….lots of good comments as usual
@ heysoos:
That is what we are trying to move it towards. Bitching and complaining is not solving anything. What we need to do is come up with solutions and tactics to defeat the Progressives.
@ heysoos:
I think the battle for the soul of the Right has begun. I see it on other blogs and many political commentators.
@ heysoos:
I let my more sinister side play over at Weasel Zippers and the Diary of Daeadalus. On, and Twitter. I’m get a lot of incoming from the libturds over at Twitter.
@ heysoos:
For what it’s worth, my first “post” here, such as it was, was my love letter of farewell to a pasty-faced blogger. Now I aspire to being Jim Rome on Sunday morning (except when I have no computer like last week…..[hangs head in shame]).
Carolina Girl wrote:
You see Charles allows a post calling for genocide against China? That’s just so despicable.
Rand Paul just now on Beck…I am feeling lonely..my fellow R’s want to give up and join the Demorats.
Breaking news
Rand Paul on Beck…the President is willing to go off the cliff to win the game.
Once again, this topic beautifully dovetails with the last.
We need to figure out who we are, what’s important to us, and what we believe in. If our answer is anything like “Reagan conservatives”, well, the discussion is futile. Stick a fork in us, we’re done.
1980 was more than half my lifetime ago and, while many of Reagan’s truths are eternal, the sad truth is that he couldn’t have won in ’08 or ’12 and anyone who thinks that “conservatism”, as currently constituted, can be sold to the contemporary electorate is deluded -- we might as well be offering it on 5.25″ floppy disks. Conservatism has weathered a roll-in-the-hay with the likes of Buchanan, Santorum, Huckabee, O’Donnell and Akins (just to name a few) and it needs a makeover, not to mention a considerable period of rebranding. Yeah, Reagan was a major force in late 20th Century politics but then again, Knute Rockne was once a major force in college football. Times change and we need to change with them.
Simply put, Democrats have, predictably, positioned themselves as the new authoritarians. Libertarianism (small “L”) is the diametric opposite of authoritarianism, and it’s in keeping with basic Republican tenets.
Opportunity is knocking.
@ Storagemanager:
I love it:
Before election: Vote for us to stop Obama!
After election: Sorry, nothing we can do, really.
@ MacDuff:
like i said in the last post. the more i see of the current gop, its leadership, and the so called leaders of he ‘right’ the more i get in tune with my inner goldwater.
personal liberty, states rights, and small fedgov.
so, i’m more libertarian than republican, hence my tea party affiliation because those three things above fit nicely with my fiscon attitude.
Trust me to get to the last thread when everybody’s movin’ down the line.
Nevertheless, there are some handy-dandy capsule points on same-sex marriage at #120 on the prior thread that may interest some people.
You will never get real spending cuts. Never. Not until our creditors get tired of loaning us money.
Obama went to Europe?
Rodan wrote:
And I think this site is contributing a lot. The last few days have produced as much high-quality and provocative debate as I’ve ever seen here. I’ve had my gripes here, but the admins and those writing these posts should take a bow.
@ Iron Fist:
That is so true. No one will give up ANY spending cuts. Especially where it counts. They could cut Defense to ZERO and it wouldn’t make a diff.
Since we’re talking spending here, I will reiterate what I mentioned on the last thread in that regard: the entire cost of both the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq, from their inception in 2001 until the present, barely equals the deficit that Obama has run up in the course of any one year he has been in office.
Iron Fist wrote:
maybe it’s time for the GOP to make a deal with China, instead of the donks
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Wow… I will have to remember that the next time my lib neighbor talks to me about the cost of the war.
The Obama toilet bowl…yes that’s right…your very own bowl with a pic of Obama at the bottom…feel like Obama chit on you?…well…chit on him.
@ MacDuff:
ing.
Bingo. No one thinks of Rubio, Rand Paul or Pat Toomey when you say Conservative. We really need to re-brand and put out newer faces.
Iron Fist wrote:
Totally agree. It’s all smoke and mirrors.
Check out this great VDH article.
@ Iron Fist:
That is a debt ceiling that really is a debt ceiling, and probably, we would all be better off were that reached sooner rather than later.
Coming soon to America..thanks to Obamacare
Romney is now sitting down to lunch with Obama
at the White House.
I know that it would have been bad form not to accept,
but it has to be galling to visit the man who ran a smear
campaign against you.
RIX wrote:
If they come out arm in arm…and talk about healing the nation and finding common ground on jobs and taxes ..I am gona stroke out.
RIX wrote:
If they have grapefruit for an appetizer, I hope Romney has a James Cagney moment.
What a man looks like when he lets his balls be cut off…
@ Storagemanager:
I hope that does not happen.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
That would be the best.
Storagemanager wrote:
You could get 3,600 signatures on an internet petition for or against practically anything. What a gullible bunch of mofos those entertainers are!
@ Flyovercountry:
I think China figures that they are buying victory in the next Pacific War with their largess. It is cheaper to let us sell ourselves to them over time than it is to actually have to fight us in the Pacific, though the so-called Peace Faction would make it unlikely that we could win a war against them anyway. I really don’t hold out much hope for us. This election was the last chance really to head it off. No matter what the Democrats and Republicans “agree” to, the National Debt will be over $21 trillion by the end of Obama’s second term. That is the number that really matters, and base-line budgeting assures us that that</B. won't change.
RIX wrote:
OMG. Maybe Romney really applies to run the new department of business
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
MacDuff wrote:
Thats correct! Lets see if we can get Dihydrogen Monoxide banned with a petition. I bet we could get 25 to 50,000 signatures…
Iron Fist wrote:
I’m not sure that it’ll even happen then.
Look at Greece. They haven’t really cut much of anything, even after the EU told them they were going to cut off the spigot if they didn’t do so.
I seriously doubt that we’ll see anything different here, especially since we still have the ability to print money, unlike Greece.
RIX wrote:
Indeed -- this is designed to humiliate Romney. And frankly, if Obama asks for ideas, I’d simply answer “all you kept saying was that you had a plan and I didn’t. Thanks for the green salad.”
@ Iron Fist:
Dangerous game for China as well though. Ever hear of Bear Sterns? What would China do if we pulled that with them. Don’t forget also that China’s new found wealth is directly correlated to their own switch to a free market economy, (not entirely, but enough to have a real impact,) something they learned with Hong Kong being folded back into their control.
SciFiGuy wrote:
Heh, good point!
Later, peeps. I’m off to some PT and a workout session. Gotta be at least able to put up a fight when they come for me!
@ SciFiGuy:
Ask, and ye shall receive.
@ Carolina Girl:
Not much chance of Obama asking Romney for ideas.
He’d have to admit that he doesn’t know everything, and we all know that won’t happen.
@ lobo91:
True dat. He’s such an asshole. He invited Romney to gloat, and Romney, being a gentleman and having respect for the office, accepted.
@ Carolina Girl:
Hey, CG! If you didn’t see my #120 in the previous thread, check it out. It may interest you, from a California perspective…
@ lobo91:
And if the Republicans were to fight it, Obama would gleefully dive us over the Fiscal Cliff, and blame the ensuing recession on the Republicans. That is really what I expect to happen, anyway. Obama is holding the Economy hostage against raising taxes, and the Republicans don’t even have the balls to call him a Tax-and-Spend Liberal. It is a most disspiriting place we find ourselves in. Any way you cut it, America simply doesn’t have that much longer. They may continue printing money long after our creditors cut us off, but that tactic worked so well in Zimbabwe that they will likely never recover from it. There is no real reason to expect it to work any better here. Obama’s goal isn’t to raise revenue, and it certainly isn’t to reduce the growth of the debt. His goal is to break America, and the voters gave him the go-ahead to do exactly that.
Wow, a whole billion dollars! That’s enough to cover 6 whole hours worth of borrowing!
//
@ Iron Fist:
Of course it won’t but there’s also no real reason to expect them not to do it anyway.
And to blame Bush.
Sound familiar?
Rush…said they are coming for the 401k next.
American’s are lucky to have hot dogs
@ Storagemanager:
Moochelle doesn’t want you to eat hot dogs, either.
@ Storagemanager:
They’ll probably not confiscate it outright, though. Instead, they’ll call people with more than $250K in their 401K “rich”, and tax it all as income at the new tax rates. The goal isn’t to get revenue, and it certainly isn’t to punish the truly wealthy. The goal is to end upward mobility in the United States. What the Democrats want is a caste system where your race determins your social class, and all fo that is fixed the moment you are born.
lobo91 wrote:
But Barack likes his dogs piping hot!
@ lobo91:
Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
I’ll give it a look see!
Wow…Megyn Kelly has some Obamabot on who just claimed that the Dems cutting $716 billion out of Medicare--which they’ve spent the past year denying having done--proves that they’re willing to cut entitlements.
@ Storagemanager:
Oh absolutely. The idea is that they are going to be able to confiscate TRILLIONS of dollars and then make the same stupid pledge -- “give us the money and we’ll give you a payout -- we’ll confiscate 3% of your salary per month and put it in a trust account for you.”
They HAVE to do this -- they need that money desperately to make the Social Security payments for the baby boomers. But watch -- they will couch it in terms of “rich people getting a tax break on their income that they’re socking away for later.”
This is going to be problematic for them this time. Even underpaid grocery clerks put money in their 401Ks. I don’t think class warfare is going to work on this.
@ Storagemanager:
It depends on the meaning of “rich”…
//
Anyone think this will come up during her confirmation hearings?
lobo91 wrote:
NO
Storagemanager wrote:
Me neither
@ lobo91:
Anyone who isn’t on welfare is, by definition, “rich”. They’re going to tax our asses off to pay benefits to their voters.
lobo91 wrote:
Now if she were white and had belonged to the radical girl scouts movement..she would be toast.
I wonder how much tax money this “think tank” has gotten from us to pay for this lawsuit?
@ Storagemanager:
I’m really starting to wonder if there’s a single black person in this administration who isn’t some sort of radical.
Of course, if you oppose them, it could only be due to the color of their skin, rather than their insane political views.
lobo91 wrote:
Only the boy and girl scouts and the chamber of commerce are radical groups to this president.
lobo91 wrote:
I’m sure there is a janitor somewhere in the Administration that isn’t a radical Marxist, but among the people who actually control things? No, I’d be willing to bet that they are all radicals. That seems to be one of the things that Obama looks for in people that he puts in positions of authority. Witness Van Jones and Eric Holder.
Deep thoughts from the Muslim Brotherhood:
Iron Fist wrote:
It’s bizarre. I know plenty of black people. Most of them are Democrats.
Not one of them believes this sort of crap, though.
@ lobo91:
I don’t know -- I think it’s not going to get that far -- she’s even got one of the Repubic Twins from Maine against her how.
@ Iron Fist:
Absolutely. By this time next year, we will be calling $100,000 RICH. In the San Francisco Bay Area, that’s the salary (with overtime) of a legal assistant.
@ lobo91:
Another thing Morsi likes
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
@ Storagemanager:
He was right about the original version of Planet of the Apes being better, anyway.
lobo91 wrote:
HA…that I agree.
@ Storagemanager:
I’m frequently reminded of those movies when I see Muslim leaders talking on TV, but probably not in the same way he’s thinking.
lobo91 wrote:
LMAO
@ Carolina Girl:
Yup, this is the same as a taunting end zone dance.
@ Carolina Girl:
The evil RICH, and don’t you forget it! They don’t mean the people who live in Washington, though, and they certainly don’t mean people like the Kennedys or the Kerrys/Heinzes. Those people are the good rich because they want to raise taxes on the Middle Class and small businesses. It is infuriating. I don’t know what we do about it, though. The low-information (i.e. stupid) voters won the day in the last election. You can’t force these people to learn, and you can’t win their votes by taking away their hand-outs.
@ lobo91:
I think the whole administration regardless of color is Marxist.
@ Iron Fist:
Target their rich!
@ lobo91:
True, but Obama and his people are of the academic, grievance class.
Susan Rice,,, from the caller .com
She and hubby, (ABC TV news producer) worth $36 Million. Lots of it invested in Canada, TransCanada (XL Pipeline),,,,
Obama signed an executive order to require the SOS to say yes or no on XL Pipeline…
So she will OK it, the R’s can not say no to her because they too want and need the XL Pipe line.
This way the Unions will get all the work to build it.
like that
two party evil money cult
http://www.redstate.com/2012/11/28/the-incestuous-bleeding-of-the-republican-party/
Inside the cult, greed.
Outside the cut, 6 day weeks of work, husband and wife now, soon the kids to.
@ 12 Storagemanager: sArah silverson, kristen bell, cher, sean penn approve of this action.
RIX wrote:
It takes education to become that stupid…
@ 29 Rodan: Maybe all of the over 40 crowd in the GoP should just step back and support a younger version of themselves.
@ 42 Iron Fist: China is probably for Obama to get so locked up in the Muslim Brotherhood that they feel confident just cock blocking the US Navy and walking into Taipei and setting up shop. Practicing on smaller islands with Japan.
taxfreekiller wrote:
Tax her ass off. That is what I mean about that they won’t really raise taxes on the rich. She won’t have to pay extortionate taxes, but the upwardly mobile middle class will see their upward moility taxed away.
@ darkwords:
Yeah, I don’t think there is any way the Obama Administration would stop them from taking Taiwan. The question is can China actually project that much power that far off their coast? They have an aircraft carrier now, but there have only been a few (maybe only one) landings on it. It’ll be five years or more before it is a serious contender, and even then they just have the one.
Iron Fist wrote:
Paradoxically, education now is not exactly about eduction.
darkwords wrote:
I would not put an age limit. But why the hell do they let that loser McCain and his girlfriend Lindsey be our spokespeople. Get people like Rubio, Rand Paul, Pat Toomey and Kristin Noem out there.
@ Iron Fist:
The government in Taiwan is actually Pro Chinese. They probably can take the place without firing a shot. They probably can buy it!
New Thread.