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Breaking News: Son of Elementary School teacher shoots up the school; See Update

by Rodan ( 203 Comments › )
Filed under Breaking News, Crime at December 14th, 2012 - 1:27 pm

So far 27 people have been killed at an elementary school shooting in Connecticut. The shooter is father of one of the students attending the school the son of one of the School teachers. (See Update II below)

NEWTOWN, Conn. (CBS Connecticut/AP)— CBS News is reporting that 27 people are dead, including 18 students, after a mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. The gunman is among the dead.

CBS News’ John Miller reports there is preliminary information that the gunman was the father of one of the students. Miller additionally reports the gunman is 20 years old and is from New Jersey.

The shooter was killed and apparently had two guns, a person with knowledge of the shooting said. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was still under way. It is not known whether the shooter took his own life or was killed.

Fox Connecticut reports that the shooting began in the kindergarten classroom.

This is a horrible tragedy. Unfortunately, Progressives will be all over this to try to get political advantage. In the meantime, my prayers go out to the families who have lost loved ones.

Update: Right on Que, Progressives are trying to take advantage of this tragedy. Canadian Marxist David Frum mocks 2nd Amendment supporters with this Tweet.

This is just disgusting on David Frum’s part.

Update Hat Tip: Weasel Zippers via waldensianspirit)

Update II: The earlier reports that the shooter was the father of one of the students is incorrect. The perpetrator was the son of a  teacher at the school.

The gunman has been identified as 24-year-old Ryan Lanza, CBS News reported. He was found dead inside the building from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, sources told CBS 2.

One of the adult victims is Lanza’s mother who was a teacher at the school, sources told CBS 2. Some of the child victims were her students, sources said.

State Police Lt. Paul Vance would only say that students and staff were among those killed. He would not give details on the exact number of victims and said families were being notified.

A law enforcement source told CBS News two pistols, a Sig and a Glock, were found in the school and a Bushmaster rifle was found in a car. A preliminary trace shows that the guns belonged to Lanza.

A second suspect has been taken into police custody in Hoboken, New Jersey, CBS News reported.

 

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203 Responses to “Breaking News: Son of Elementary School teacher shoots up the school; See Update”
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  1. 1 | December 14, 2012 1:32 pm

    There was a second gunman as well.
    And to David [Piece of Shit] Frum — when you die, I hope it’s painful.


  2. 2 | December 14, 2012 1:44 pm

    This isn’t crazy, it’s evil. We have some sickness of soul afoot in this country and this incident is but another manifestation. God help us all, this wasn’t the first and I doubt it’ll not be the last.


  3. RIX
    3 | December 14, 2012 1:46 pm

    NEWTOWN, Conn. (CBS Connecticut/AP)— CBS News is reporting that 27 people are dead, including 18 students, after a mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. The gunman is among the dead.A
    CBS News’ John Miller reports there is preliminary information that the gunman was the father of one of the students. Miller additionally reports the gunman is 20 years old and is from New Jersey.

    That would make him awfully young the time of birth.


  4. Guggi
    4 | December 14, 2012 1:48 pm

    My heart goes to the families involved.

    For those who think it’s all about firearms, no, you can kill schoolchildren with a self-made flamethrower as well


  5. 5 | December 14, 2012 1:49 pm

    What kind of 20 year old has a kid already in school? Let’s give him all consideration, and let’s say he is going to be 21 next week and his kid in in kindergarten and 5 years old. doesn’t that still make him a father at 16?

    Also, what laws did he break to bring a gun to school? What gun control laws are they going to tru to pass in the wake of this tragedy? How will those new laws prevent this from happening again?


  6. unclassifiable
    6 | December 14, 2012 1:58 pm

    I can’t even wrap my mind around what drives people to do something like this.

    I do not know if there if there could ever be a PSA like this:

    “If you are having thoughts of doing harm to innocent people talk to someone. If you know someone who is having these thoughts, call us. We (local law enforcement) can help.”


  7. 7 | December 14, 2012 1:58 pm

    @ father_of_10:

    See The Dunblane Massacre.


  8. bluliner10
    8 | December 14, 2012 2:00 pm

    @ Guggi:
    Regardless of the method that the shooter was able to obtain these firearms, I am not jumping on that bandwagon. I agree and I demanded that my daughters’ school districts both hired armed security following the terrorist attack in Beslan. Drudge was reporting 22 children were slashed by an attacker yesterday in China…choice of weapon does not matter, only the desire by the killer to commit his act of atrocity.


  9. bluliner10
  10. 10 | December 14, 2012 2:04 pm

    Check the update.


  11. heysoos
    11 | December 14, 2012 2:06 pm

    who is the other guy?…and why would he participate?
    he’ll never get away


  12. 12 | December 14, 2012 2:07 pm

    I just created a scene in Starbucks (I had to walk for a second). The song “Wonderful World” by Louis Armstrong came on the Musak and I started sobbing.


  13. 13 | December 14, 2012 2:08 pm

    @ Rodan:

    [Deleted]


  14. 14 | December 14, 2012 2:12 pm

    @ Guggi:

    YOu could kill children with an axe. The answer, of course, is armed teachers. The teachers are there with the students, pretty much at all times. If you don’t trust the teacher around your kid with a gun, why do you trust them around your kid at all? Conversely, while some kids would have probably been killed no matter what (you simply cannot stop a madman), there would have been far fewer if the teachers had been able to fight back.


  15. 15 | December 14, 2012 2:15 pm

    Not to be outdone, Geraldo tweets the following:

    Guns don’t kill ppl crazy ppl with guns kill ppl. Will we ever have guts 2 confront the gun lobby?

    Tell me, jerkface -- what law do you think could have prevented this.


  16. 16 | December 14, 2012 2:20 pm

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Conneticutt already have pretty strict gun control? I’m thinking like a semi-automatic weapons ban and the like.


  17. 17 | December 14, 2012 2:25 pm

    The shooter has been identified as Ryan Lanza -- he is 24, not 20 as first reported. Hearing reports that his MOTHER was a teacher at the school and was killed.


  18. citizen_q
    18 | December 14, 2012 2:27 pm

    @ Rodan:
    The likes of geraldo and frum should be called out for the sick, twisted, self-aggrandizing opportunistic scum they are for exploiting tragic events.


  19. 19 | December 14, 2012 2:30 pm

    @ citizen_q:

    Oh, there are tweets from libturd Congressmen doing the same thing. Someone in my office said “if only there were better gun control.” I said “yeah? Tell that to the people of South Central L.A.”

    We don’t even know if this monster obtained his gun in a legal manner, and already it’s “repeal the second amendment.” To my knowledge, no member of an organized guns rights group has ever engaged in this monstrous conduct.


  20. heysoos
    20 | December 14, 2012 2:32 pm

    @ Carolina Girl:
    legal gun owners so rarely kill anybody there is no statistic…or so I’ve heard


  21. 21 | December 14, 2012 2:37 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    To my knowledge, no member of an organized guns rights group has ever engaged in this monstrous conduct.

    If they had, their affiliation would be splashed all over the news propaganda.


  22. 22 | December 14, 2012 2:37 pm

    @ heysoos:

    It would make sense. I believe the monster from the Oregon mall stole the weapon he used. Some poor man with the same name as the shooter is screaming on Twitter that it wasn’t HIM.


  23. lobo91
    23 | December 14, 2012 2:38 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    YOu could kill children with an axe. The answer, of course, is armed teachers. The teachers are there with the students, pretty much at all times. If you don’t trust the teacher around your kid with a gun, why do you trust them around your kid at all?

    That reminds me of the people who went berserk when the program to arm pilots was first proposed.

    Seems to me that if the person flying the plane wants to kill the passengers, he doesn’t need a gun to do it…
    //


  24. unclassifiable
    24 | December 14, 2012 2:39 pm

    Tell you what liberals, I’ll consider gun control after you consider the glorification of violence in TV shows, movies, video games, music, literature, and political speech.

    Oh yeah, that’s right. That’s your freedom of expression.


  25. lobo91
    25 | December 14, 2012 2:40 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    @ heysoos:
    It would make sense. I believe the monster from the Oregon mall stole the weapon he used. Some poor man with the same name as the shooter is screaming on Twitter that it wasn’t HIM.

    Which should be self-evident, since the shooter is dead, and dead people rarely use Twitter.


  26. 26 | December 14, 2012 2:41 pm

    Please Lord, have the Guardian Angels grant the children who survived and witnessed this horror quiet dreams tonight. Please.


  27. unclassifiable
    27 | December 14, 2012 2:42 pm

    @ Carolina Girl:

    Amen.


  28. 28 | December 14, 2012 2:42 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Conneticutt already have pretty strict gun control? I’m thinking like a semi-automatic weapons ban and the like.

    yup.


  29. 29 | December 14, 2012 2:43 pm

    citizen_q wrote:

    @ Rodan:
    The likes of geraldo and frum should be called out for the sick, twisted, self-aggrandizing opportunistic scum they are for exploiting tragic events.

    jerks.


  30. heysoos
    30 | December 14, 2012 2:44 pm

    unclassifiable wrote:

    Tell you what liberals, I’ll consider gun control after you consider the glorification of violence in TV shows, movies, video games, music, literature, and political speech.
    Oh yeah, that’s right. That’s your freedom of expression.

    thanks, I was going to post exactly that…our culture has a very dark, violent aspect to it and it’s promoted to make billions….many people have difficulties with reality as liberals prove everyday


  31. 31 | December 14, 2012 2:44 pm

    God help me, I cannot stop crying.


  32. heysoos
    32 | December 14, 2012 2:45 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    God help me, I cannot stop crying.

    crying is okay


  33. Guggi
    33 | December 14, 2012 2:46 pm

    bluliner10 wrote:

    choice of weapon does not matter, only the desire by the killer to commit his act of atrocity.

    That’s true.


  34. lobo91
    34 | December 14, 2012 2:46 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Conneticutt already have pretty strict gun control? I’m thinking like a semi-automatic weapons ban and the like.

    They have an “assault weapon” ban, and a 2 week waiting period for buying a handgun.


  35. unclassifiable
    35 | December 14, 2012 2:46 pm

    @ Carolina Girl:

    Let it out. It’s normal.


  36. 36 | December 14, 2012 2:48 pm

    @ lobo91:

    I thought so. That won’t stop the usual suspects from claiming that if they had had an “assault weapons” ban this wouldn’t have happened. You can see the line that they are going to take from Frum and Riverea. The Left don’t view this as a tragedy. They view it as an oppertunity.


  37. 37 | December 14, 2012 2:50 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    That reminds me of the people who went berserk when the program to arm pilots was first proposed.

    Seems to me that if the person flying the plane wants to kill the passengers, he doesn’t need a gun to do it…

    Indeed. My final career was with the airlines and, in the years following 9/11, even flight crews were famously prohibited from carrying fingernail clippers, even though a crash axe is standard flight deck equipment in every commercial aircraft.

    The FFDO program was one of the only common-sense post 9/11 programs created.


  38. heysoos
    38 | December 14, 2012 2:51 pm

    we need to seal up these schools, fenced, gated and in constant lockdown…a two level defense….breech the gates and it’s shoot to kill….period….you could get volunteers to load up, put on their Kevlar and take care of it


  39. lobo91
    39 | December 14, 2012 2:51 pm

    At least 26 dead in shooting at Connecticut elementary school

    Authorities say at least 26 people, including 18 children, were killed Friday when a gunman clad in black military gear opened fire inside a Connecticut elementary school.

    The shooter, identified as 24-year-old Ryan Lanza, lived in Hoboken, N.J., and had ties to Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., according to officials. The gunman was found dead inside the building, but it remains unclear who killed him.

    Local news outlets report that the shooting occurred inside a kindergarten classroom, and that all the pupils in that classroom are unaccounted for.

    An official with knowledge of the situation said the shooter was armed with a .223-caliber rifle. The motive is not yet known.

    Police are also questioning another man in connection with the shooting. Witnesses told the Connecticut Post that a handcuffed man, dressed in camouflage, was led out of a nearby woods by officers.

    If the guy lived in New Jersey (which has its own ridiculous gun laws, BTW) it really doesn’t matter what the laws in CT are.


  40. lobo91
    40 | December 14, 2012 2:53 pm

    And now they’re reporting that the shooter’s father was found dead in his home in NJ.


  41. lobo91
    41 | December 14, 2012 2:55 pm

    @ MacDuff:

    The FFDO program was one of the only common-sense post 9/11 programs created.

    Which was why they did as much as possible to crush it. There’s a reason they put the training site in middle-of-nowhere NM and made candidates go there on their own dime.


  42. buzzsawmonkey
    42 | December 14, 2012 2:55 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    The shooter has been identified as Ryan Lanza — he is 24, not 20 as first reported. Hearing reports that his MOTHER was a teacher at the school and was killed.

    There is now at least one Ryan Lanza who is on Facebook whose life got a whole lot worse.


  43. buzzsawmonkey
    43 | December 14, 2012 2:57 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    we need to seal up these schools, fenced, gated and in constant lockdown…a two level defense….breech the gates and it’s shoot to kill….period….you could get volunteers to load up, put on their Kevlar and take care of it

    No, we need to re-institutionalize the insane and become generally more civic-minded.


  44. lobo91
    44 | December 14, 2012 2:58 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    No, we need to re-institutionalize the insane and become generally more civic-minded.

    Bingo.


  45. 45 | December 14, 2012 2:58 pm

    Lanza killed his father at his home in Hoboken, before going to the school, firing shots in the front office, and then turning on the kindergarten class. His mother was killed as well.

    http://patdollard.com/2012/12/breaking-multiple-deaths-at-connecticut-elementary-school-shooting/


  46. 46 | December 14, 2012 3:00 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    He’s receiving threats from the completely ignorant. The Ryan Lanza involved in this tragedy is DEAD.


  47. darkwords
    47 | December 14, 2012 3:01 pm

    @ 38 heysoos: That is a good point. Kids don’t make good hall monitors. Make a PTA effort and control access to all schools. Turn a corner office into a police outreach desk.


  48. 48 | December 14, 2012 3:02 pm

    The younger brother of Lanza is being held.


  49. 49 | December 14, 2012 3:02 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Wasn’t it the Left who de-institutionalized the insane, on the grounds that it was inhumane to deny them their “rights”?


  50. lobo91
    50 | December 14, 2012 3:03 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    Wasn’t it the Left who de-institutionalized the insane, on the grounds that it was inhumane to deny them their “rights”?

    Yes, it was. As usual, though, the left has rewritten history and claims that it was the result of Reagan cutting the budget.


  51. 51 | December 14, 2012 3:03 pm

    @ darkwords:

    There’s no need for that. You have an adult in every classroom of the school. Allow that adult to responsibly carry a gun. If you don’t trust your kid’s teacher with a gun, you probably shouldn’t trust them with your kid.


  52. darkwords
    52 | December 14, 2012 3:04 pm

    @ 44 lobo91: At least require the loose insane to talk regularly with a sane counselor. This has the feeling of an insane shooter to me. Welfare visits.


  53. buzzsawmonkey
    53 | December 14, 2012 3:04 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    Wasn’t it the Left who de-institutionalized the insane, on the grounds that it was inhumane to deny them their “rights”?

    Why, yes…yes it was. After all, they’re just like you and me, as long as they take their meds.

    Of course, they don’t take their meds, because…they’re insane, and the voices in their heads tell them not to.


  54. darkwords
    54 | December 14, 2012 3:05 pm

    @ 49 Iron Fist: problem is the cost. 1 in 4 people have some form of mental illenss over their lifetime. 1 in 20 a serious mental illness. Generally non violent, but when violent there is no reason to it.


  55. darkwords
    55 | December 14, 2012 3:07 pm

    Attack on the 2nd amendment already.

    I guess my reply then would be if someone feels the need to repeal the 2nd amendment then we should also dissolve the distinction between church and state.

    But I think the framers were smarter than all of us combined.


  56. unclassifiable
    56 | December 14, 2012 3:07 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    I think this brings up another good point.

    We live in a live and let live/mind your own business society (for the most part).

    That is fine but when you have indications that someone is losing it then it may be time to put that aside and act proactively.

    This is such a hard thing to balance but I think about how of thier rocker the shooter in Denver was and this guy and you always come back to what others were seeing in thier behavior.

    Admittedly, I am guilty about throwing around the “they need to be beaten” or “they need to be shot” rhetoric but it is stuff like this that makes me pause and want to tone it down.

    I blame myself for not following a path that would be more honorable rather than allowing the prevailing popular culture affect my tone.


  57. buzzsawmonkey
    57 | December 14, 2012 3:09 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    problem is the cost. 1 in 4 people have some form of mental illenss over their lifetime. 1 in 20 a serious mental illness. Generally non violent, but when violent there is no reason to it.

    I will bet money that the cost of multiple outsourced facilities for deinstitutionalized mental patients, and the salaries (and benefits, and pensions) necessary to staff these multiple facilities, and the additional cost of the depredations of the deinstitutionalized mentally ill, added together, vastly outweighs the costs of institutionalization.

    That is, of course, the point; Cloward-Piven overburdening of the mental-health, social welfare, and law enforcement systems, bloating of the public-service payroll (and thus, more loyal Democratic voters), and a breakdown of social order, too.


  58. 58 | December 14, 2012 3:09 pm

    @ darkwords:

    They want to erase the distinction between Church and State. Make no mistake about that. They want the State to replace God, and all religion to venerate the State.


  59. darkwords
    59 | December 14, 2012 3:10 pm

    Just some basic gun safety in TV and Movies and Videos would help out a lot. Advocate people go see an actual gun safety educator.

    These loners all watch TV. All a TV write has to do is start writing about loners watching TV and use gun safety as a message.


  60. waldensianspirit
    60 | December 14, 2012 3:10 pm

    @ lobo91:
    I’m wondering if a teacher didn’t just have a gun and shot Lanza


  61. buzzsawmonkey
    61 | December 14, 2012 3:11 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    if someone feels the need to repeal the 2nd amendment then we should also dissolve the distinction between church and state.

    The destruction of the First Amendment and the Tenth Amendment will occur next year, when Elena Kagen delivers the Supreme Court opinion making same-sex marriage a matter of equal protection and overriding state determinations.


  62. darkwords
    62 | December 14, 2012 3:12 pm

    @ 57 buzzsawmonkey: I am in favor of barracks for criminals and dorms for the insane. Mass cheap housing. No amenities unless they provide them themselves or their families do. Few rules. Respect and safety rewarded. No exit for high level sex offenders or the criminally insane.


  63. darkwords
    63 | December 14, 2012 3:15 pm

    One major problem is that a family can’t force an adult child with violent mental tendencies into drug treatment until after they have committed a violent crime. A lot of moms and dads desperately want to get their kids help but are stymied by the law. So they give up and resign themselves to live with the kid and do the best they can. going broke emotionally and financially in the process. or they kick the kid to the curb and move on holding guilt.


  64. 64 | December 14, 2012 3:16 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Leave it to the Wise Lesbian….


  65. darkwords
    65 | December 14, 2012 3:16 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey: yes conservative will hold onto the constitution, liberals want to rip it up.


  66. buzzsawmonkey
    66 | December 14, 2012 3:17 pm

    Macker wrote:

    Leave it to the Wise Lesbian….

    I think that was originally “Leave it to Beaver,” wasn’t it?


  67. gizbot7
    67 | December 14, 2012 3:18 pm

    Oh Dear God. Please bless those babies, adults and their families. This makes no sense at all. I’ve spent my life trying to understand what cannot be understood — this is one of those that will keep me awake at night for probably my lifetime. Evil. Just evil.


  68. 68 | December 14, 2012 3:18 pm

    @ darkwords:

    Jerk the Wonder Prez will be speaking on this later. I am sure we’ll start to hear the beginnings of his attack on gun ownerhship now. He’s already got his surrogates jamming the lines at Twitter, starting with that twit Oliver Willis at Media (never) Matters.


  69. 69 | December 14, 2012 3:19 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Heh! Beaver Cleaver. Get it?


  70. lobo91
    70 | December 14, 2012 3:19 pm

    Looks like we’re in for a fight in Colorado:

    Hickenlooper shifts position on more gun control measures

    In a significant shift from his statements earlier this year, Gov. John Hickenlooper now says “the time is right” for Colorado lawmakers to consider further gun restrictions.

    The Democratic governor made his comments in an interview with The Associated Pressthat comes less than half a year after the mass shooting in an Aurora movie theater that killed 12 and injured at least 58. His latest words also follow a shooting in an Oregon mall Tuesday that left three dead, including the gunman, who shot himself.

    “I wanted to have at least a couple of months off after the shooting in Aurora to let people process and grieve and get a little space, but … I think, now … the time is right,” Hickenlooper said in the Wednesday interview.

    But his comments to AP are in contrast to ones Hickenlooper made in the days after the Aurora shooting, in which he expressed skepticism that tougher gun laws would have stopped suspected gunman James Holmes’ July 20 rampage in the theater. Also, Holmes’ apartment was rigged with trip wires and explosive devices, authorities said.

    Looks like the Dems got to him.


  71. darkwords
    71 | December 14, 2012 3:19 pm

    In any event. The MSM will fail here again. They will glorify the shooter and his name. He will become the no 1 google result for his name search. The leading headline for any article about this guy should be LOSER When you search google on the term loser his name should come up first. And the second article should be an essay on why he would have been much better off killing himself first.

    That is the message to star out to the mass consciousness.


  72. lobo91
    72 | December 14, 2012 3:20 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    @ darkwords:
    Jerk the Wonder Prez will be speaking on this later. I am sure we’ll start to hear the beginnings of his attack on gun ownerhship now. He’s already got his surrogates jamming the lines at Twitter, starting with that twit Oliver Willis at Media (never) Matters.

    He’s on right now.


  73. fultonchain
    73 | December 14, 2012 3:22 pm

    Hey Rodan, just wanted to say hello. I kinda miss you guys and lurk on a regular basis. This thread, because of a personal connection got my attention.

    You guys are insane you know. A gun in every classroom is a *solution* now? Seriously. You trust teachers not to lose/drop/abuse a weapon? Don’t know many teachers, do you?

    You guys do understand that there is a middle ground between unfettered access by all to banning guns entirely, don’t you? I come from farm country and we like our guns. We kill critters and when your an hour from a 911 response home defense is a legitimate concern. Yet, I have never felt the need to fire armor piercing military rounds from a fully equipped tactical rifle. I’m not defending myself against hordes of zombies and I’m not hunting wolves by the pack.

    Nothing in the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to bear military grade weapons and ammunition in unlimited quantities. There are limitations on all our rights and it would be great to have a discussion about gun control without the politicized hyperbole.

    So there, you right-wing-tea-partying-whack-jobs — and I say that with love — take that!


  74. 74 | December 14, 2012 3:23 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Can you give a synopsis? I can’t stand to listen to that sanctimonious son of a bitch.


  75. buzzsawmonkey
    75 | December 14, 2012 3:23 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    yes conservative will hold onto the constitution, liberals want to rip it up.

    You misunderstand me. There is a double case now before the Supreme Court on same-sex marriage; the Court will review the Second Circuit determination as to whether denial of federal marriage benefits under the federal Defense of Marriage Act is a denial of equal protection to a same-sex couple married under their own state law, and will also review whether the people of California could legally vote to amend their own state constitution to define what marriage is.

    If Elena Kagen delivers the opinion—and I’ll offer 8 to 1 she does, since this is what she was put on the Court to do—she will void the Defense of Marriage Act so that Obama doesn’t have to repeal it (he’s already refused to enforce it, but why would he lift a finger?), on the grounds that the DOMA unconstitutionally denies same-sex couples equal protection. Then, having ruled that state law trumps federal in this instance, she will uphold the 9th Circuit and void the Prop 8 referendum—thereby destroying the 10th Amendment by refusing to let the people of a sovereign state amend their own constitution.

    The legalization of same-sex marriage will destroy First Amendment free-speech, free association and freedom of religion protection, which is what it was supposed to do. But the gay-rights movement will get a twofer, since the Tenth will also be gutted.


  76. lobo91
    76 | December 14, 2012 3:23 pm

    Obama says there will be “meaningful action regardless of politics” to prevent future attacks.


  77. darkwords
    77 | December 14, 2012 3:25 pm

    @ fultonchain: Hey Fulton, you guys are all insane you know. You come from farm country but have no idea of what gun safety is about. Even though you had guns. I say that with love you whack job. Hearts and minds before guns and butter. Come down from 30,000 feet. :-) good to see you post though and bring a different opinion.


  78. lobo91
    78 | December 14, 2012 3:25 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    Nothing in the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to bear military grade weapons and ammunition in unlimited quantities.

    Please point to a single crime that has been committed using “military grade weapons” in the US in the past 50 years.


  79. lobo91
    79 | December 14, 2012 3:29 pm

    @ darkwords:

    I love the way the uninformed like to pepper their statements with meaningless terms that they don’t understand.

    A semi-automatic rifle is not a “military grade weapon.” And “armor-piercing military rounds” are a particularly poor choice for shooting people who aren’t wearing body armor.


  80. 80 | December 14, 2012 3:31 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    Nothing in the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to bear military grade weapons and ammunition in unlimited quantities.

    Actually, that’s EXACTLY what the framers put it in there for. There primary concern was NOT duck hunting, it the citizenry having sufficient power to overthrow a tyrannical government. They had just been through that, if you’ll remember.


  81. 81 | December 14, 2012 3:31 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Obama says there will be “meaningful action regardless of politics” to prevent future attacks.

    Just like clockwork, there they go with the “We must ensure that this never happens again” bullshit. They know they can’t, but when opportunities like this start knocking, they just can’t help but answer.


  82. 82 | December 14, 2012 3:32 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    How have you been? Stop by more often!


  83. fultonchain
    83 | December 14, 2012 3:32 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Please point to a single crime that has been committed using “military grade weapons” in the US in the past 50 years.

    All the time. It wasn’t until the seventies that what people call “assault rifles” were even available to the general public. Now, weapons that were once the province of collectors or legitimate enthusiast have become commonplace and available to anyone.


  84. heysoos
    84 | December 14, 2012 3:35 pm

    fultonchain wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:
    Please point to a single crime that has been committed using “military grade weapons” in the US in the past 50 years.
    All the time. It wasn’t until the seventies that what people call “assault rifles” were even available to the general public. Now, weapons that were once the province of collectors or legitimate enthusiast have become commonplace and available to anyone.

    is my Remington 870 auto loader an assault weapon?


  85. 85 | December 14, 2012 3:36 pm

    @ MacDuff:

    Did I not call it on the thread earlier.


  86. fultonchain
    86 | December 14, 2012 3:36 pm

    Mike C. wrote:

    There primary concern was NOT duck hunting, it the citizenry having sufficient power to overthrow a tyrannical government.

    Yeah, cause that’s gonna happen.

    Anyway, how many guns can you fire at the same time? You have the right to bear arms and protect you and yours. Nobody ever said anything about acquiring an arsenal and riding around with it in the trunk of your car… just in case, you know.


  87. 87 | December 14, 2012 3:37 pm

    Just a heads up to everyone. fultonchain is an old timer. He’s the type of Liberal you can have a honest discussion with. he’s not a troll and has been with us since the early days.


  88. heysoos
    88 | December 14, 2012 3:37 pm

    wtf is an assault weapon?…M1 Garands have been available to the public since the end of the Korean war


  89. 89 | December 14, 2012 3:38 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    Did I not call it on the thread earlier.

    Yeah, they’re nothing if not predictable.


  90. heysoos
    90 | December 14, 2012 3:39 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    Just a heads up to everyone. fultonchain is an old timer. He’s the type of Liberal you can have a honest discussion with. he’s not a troll and has been with us since the early days.

    and the first thing he does is call me insane?


  91. 91 | December 14, 2012 3:39 pm

    @ MacDuff:

    Progressives love death. Just ask Stalin, Hitler and Mao!


  92. bluliner10
    92 | December 14, 2012 3:39 pm

    @ fultonchain:
    AK-47′s and M 16′s did not exist until late in the 60′s so what the hell is your point?


  93. buzzsawmonkey
    93 | December 14, 2012 3:40 pm

    fultonchain wrote:

    Anyway, how many guns can you fire at the same time? You have the right to bear arms and protect you and yours. Nobody ever said anything about acquiring an arsenal and riding around with it in the trunk of your car… just in case, you know.

    Answer to the first question: you never know ’til you try. And maybe you want to fire them in sequence.

    As to the “right to acquire an arsenal,” yeah, you do have that right—and the right to ride it around with you, too. What makes you think otherwise?


  94. unclassifiable
    94 | December 14, 2012 3:40 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    I don’t think this is about what a person has in their hands. I think this is about what is going on between their ears.


  95. 95 | December 14, 2012 3:41 pm

    @ heysoos:

    No debate him, I was just saying he’s not a troll. He hates Charles Johnson also.


  96. buzzsawmonkey
    96 | December 14, 2012 3:42 pm

    bluliner10 wrote:

    AK-47′s and M 16′s did not exist until late in the 60′s

    Actually, wasn’t the AK-47 first developed by the Russians either during WWII or shortly afterwards?


  97. bluliner10
    97 | December 14, 2012 3:42 pm

    @ bluliner10:
    My bust, AK-47 designed in 47 approved for use by USSR and select satelites by 1949.


  98. 98 | December 14, 2012 3:44 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    I would like to see any evidence of firearms ownership being a causation for mass murder. The problem is what’s in the head or the soul, not in the closet of the shooter.


  99. heysoos
    99 | December 14, 2012 3:44 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    bluliner10 wrote:
    AK-47′s and M 16′s did not exist until late in the 60′s
    Actually, wasn’t the AK-47 first developed by the Russians either during WWII or shortly afterwards?

    yes, at the time it was an awesome piece of engineering…the perfect weapon for a rural revolutionary….they always work…drive over one with a tank and it will still fire….you don’t need to clean them or kiss it bed at night…just pull the trigger


  100. lobo91
    100 | December 14, 2012 3:45 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    All the time. It wasn’t until the seventies that what people call “assault rifles” were even available to the general public. Now, weapons that were once the province of collectors or legitimate enthusiast have become commonplace and available to anyone.

    You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, so you should probably move on to something you understand.

    Whatever that might be. The various flavors available at Starbucks, maybe?


  101. 101 | December 14, 2012 3:46 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    We train 18 year-olds to carry machineguns in war zones without killing unauthorized locals. A gun is not that complex a piece of machinery. Do you really mean to tell me that you want people who can’t be trained to safely carry a gun to be teachers? It seems to me that if we got rid of the Teacher’s Unions we could have some minimal standards about the type of person we allow to become a teacher. If you can’t trust them with a gun around your kids, you simply can’t trust them around your kids.


  102. bluliner10
    102 | December 14, 2012 3:47 pm

    @ heysoos:
    Yes, my answer got the better of my facts.


  103. heysoos
    103 | December 14, 2012 3:48 pm

    @ bluliner10:
    no big deal


  104. 104 | December 14, 2012 3:48 pm

    BTW, my wife is reporting that this guy was a whack-job who wanted the world to end in two weeks. Are we going to blame this on the Mayan Calendar? What about all the well-paid idiots who have been spewing that nonsesnse for the last couple of years?


  105. buzzsawmonkey
    105 | December 14, 2012 3:48 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    If you can’t trust them with a gun around your kids, you simply can’t trust them around your kids.

    Hence the number of teachers who’ve been in the news in recent years—male and female both—who clearly cannot be trusted around children. Maybe they’d be able to keep it in their pants better if they had a little “this is my rifle, this is my gun” training…


  106. 106 | December 14, 2012 3:51 pm

    fultonchain wrote:

    Mike C. wrote:
    There primary concern was NOT duck hunting, it the citizenry having sufficient power to overthrow a tyrannical government.
    Yeah, cause that’s gonna happen.
    Anyway, how many guns can you fire at the same time? You have the right to bear arms and protect you and yours. Nobody ever said anything about acquiring an arsenal and riding around with it in the trunk of your car… just in case, you know.

    Define “arsenal.” For the MSM, it’s 2 or more guns.


  107. 107 | December 14, 2012 3:51 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    True that. There are bad teachers, but it is the Teachers’ Unions that are keeping them on the job. Like I said, a gun isn’t that complex a piece of machinery. If you can’t train a teacher to carry one safely, maybe that is a good indication that said person shouldn’t be a teacher.


  108. lobo91
    108 | December 14, 2012 3:53 pm

    @ Mike C.:

    Define “arsenal.” For the MSM, it’s 2 or more guns.

    I always like the comments about how much ammo someone has on hand, too.

    Personally, I buy in bulk because it’s cheaper.


  109. heysoos
    109 | December 14, 2012 3:54 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Mike C.:
    Define “arsenal.” For the MSM, it’s 2 or more guns.
    I always like the comments about how much ammo someone has on hand, too.
    Personally, I buy in bulk because it’s cheaper.

    those stats are misleading….normally I shoot most intruders 3-400 times


  110. 110 | December 14, 2012 3:55 pm

    @ lobo91:

    They want to register ammo, too, so they can make sure you don’t have too much. Their agenda is quite transparent. I love it how they always profess to respect the Second Amendment but… There’s always that “but” that they can drive any legislation that they want through. Kind of like how Bull Connor, good Democrat that he was, respected the rights of blacks but


  111. 111 | December 14, 2012 3:56 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Yes it is. And as far as an arsenal goes, many people I know shoot different weapons at the range because they LIKE to. But lately people have been acquiring guns and ammo because there is very real belief that gun control is high on the Obama agenda.


  112. buzzsawmonkey
    112 | December 14, 2012 3:58 pm

    Gotta git, folks.


  113. 113 | December 14, 2012 3:58 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    We had that ridiculous law in California a couple years ago which, thankfully was challenged in court and struct down, whereby you had to present a driver’s license and a fingerprint to buy ammunition. Ah-nold said it would make California safer. Also, I imagine it would get you a visit from the DOJ if you were buying say, 9mm at the local WalMart at the request of your friend in Alameda County because it’s cheaper where you live but the California DOJ had no record of you owning a 9mm so what up with that, Ms. Carolina?

    Of course, as we all know, the gang bangers of the inner city are all about complying with the law.


  114. 114 | December 14, 2012 3:58 pm

    @ Iron Fist:

    but = ignore EVERYTHING said prior to that word….


  115. lobo91
    115 | December 14, 2012 3:59 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Yes it is. And as far as an arsenal goes, many people I know shoot different weapons at the range because they LIKE to. But lately people have been acquiring guns and ammo because there is very real belief that gun control is high on the Obama agenda.

    My usual response to people who ask why I own several different guns it that they’re tools. I then ask them how many different tools they have in their garage, and why.

    When they tell me that it’s because they’re used for different things, I tell them the same thing applies to my guns.


  116. 116 | December 14, 2012 4:01 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Great analogy.


  117. SciFiGuy
    117 | December 14, 2012 4:01 pm

    bluliner10 wrote:

    @ bluliner10:
    My bust, AK-47 designed in 47 approved for use by USSR and select satelites by 1949.

    M16 developed in 1958. FIrst testing by MIlitary in 1962.


  118. heysoos
    118 | December 14, 2012 4:02 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Carolina Girl wrote:
    @ lobo91:
    Yes it is. And as far as an arsenal goes, many people I know shoot different weapons at the range because they LIKE to. But lately people have been acquiring guns and ammo because there is very real belief that gun control is high on the Obama agenda.
    My usual response to people who ask why I own several different guns it that they’re tools. I then ask them how many different tools they have in their garage, and why.
    When they tell me that it’s because they’re used for different things, I tell them the same thing applies to my guns.

    generally I use a hefty trap load to kill my weeds


  119. fultonchain
    120 | December 14, 2012 4:06 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    “We train 18 year-olds to carry machineguns in war zones without killing unauthorized locals. A gun is not that complex a piece of machinery.”

    Sure, it’s not complex. In the end, point and pull. Then again, the decision whether or not to invoke deadly force is a little more complex. When you guys say “guns don’t kill people, people do” you are entirely right. People are idiots, why make it easy on them?

    “Do you really mean to tell me that you want people who can’t be trained to safely carry a gun to be teachers?”

    Yes. I don’t see what they have to do with one another. I don’t want my mail man armed, I don’t want my garbage guy or my landscaper armed. I want teachers to teach and landscapers to scape.

    “It seems to me that if we got rid of the Teacher’s Unions we could have some minimal standards about the type of person we allow to become a teacher. If you can’t trust them with a gun around your kids, you simply can’t trust them around your kids.”

    We do now. We do background tests, drug tests and a slew of other tests on teachers. Not to mention the fact that they’re, you know, educated. It’s the kids I don’t trust. Because they’re idiots and if you arm teachers you are spewing guns all over schools filled with idiot kids.


  120. 121 | December 14, 2012 4:07 pm

    SciFiGuy wrote:

    M16 developed in 1958. FIrst testing by MIlitary in 1962.

    I remember they had a helluva lot of problems with them when they first started using them in Vietnam.


  121. bluliner10
    122 | December 14, 2012 4:07 pm

    @ SciFiGuy:
    But fielded in approximately 1966.


  122. 123 | December 14, 2012 4:08 pm

    New thread.


  123. 124 | December 14, 2012 4:10 pm

    fultonchain wrote:

    Yes. I don’t see what they have to do with one another. I don’t want my mail man armed, I don’t want my garbage guy or my landscaper armed. I want teachers to teach and landscapers to scape.

    They can be all of those things and also be able to handle a gun legally and safely. Performance of my own profession is not affected at all by my ability to shoot when I go to the gun range.


  124. bluliner10
    125 | December 14, 2012 4:10 pm

    @ MacDuff:
    Most of the soldiers who received them did not even get them before leaving for Vietnam. They had never fired the weapon nor maintained it, and were still trying to clean it with equipment designed to clean the M1′s and M14′s.


  125. heysoos
    126 | December 14, 2012 4:11 pm

    “We do now. We do background tests, drug tests and a slew of other tests on teachers. Not to mention the fact that they’re, you know, educated.”…

    union teachers are no smarter than the millions of culls they produce every year….their record is horrible, so much that if they were private employees they’d be fired instantly….teachers are part of the problem, not the solution


  126. 127 | December 14, 2012 4:13 pm

    bluliner10 wrote:

    @ MacDuff:
    Most of the soldiers who received them did not even get them before leaving for Vietnam. They had never fired the weapon nor maintained it, and were still trying to clean it with equipment designed to clean the M1′s and M14′s.

    I didn’t know that, I just remember there was controversy back in the day.


  127. RIX
    128 | December 14, 2012 4:15 pm

    bluliner10 wrote:

    @ MacDuff:

    Most of the soldiers who received them did not even get them before leaving for Vietnam. They had never fired the weapon nor maintained it, and were still trying to clean it with equipment designed to clean the M1′s and M14′s.

    The M16 jammed all of the time.


  128. fultonchain
    129 | December 14, 2012 4:22 pm

    Urban Infidel wrote:

    They can be all of those things and also be able to handle a gun legally and safely. Performance of my own profession is not affected at all by my ability to shoot when I go to the gun range.

    You can teach an eight year old to safely handle a gun. What you can’t teach an eight year old is good judgement — that applies to a great many adults too.

    When the licensing requirements for a deadly weapon are less than the requirements for a motor vehicle license, and they are sold to people we don’t trust enough to sell alcohol to, there is a problem.


  129. bluliner10
    130 | December 14, 2012 4:25 pm

    @ MacDuff:
    M14′s were heavy pieces of lumber and steel. They fired in all conditions. The M-16 in fairness was a far superior rifle for the fighting in Vietnam up to today. It is far more accurate at long ranges, much lighter and with the smaller ammo the average soldier or Marine can carry hundreds of rounds. The original was not designed for a jungle fight, was fragile, needed to be cleaned frequently, and especially for the first rotations of soldiers and Marines who received them…not trained with. Those vulnerabilities were taken care of in subsequent generations, until the M16A2 showed it was not a good weapon in the desert environment due to dust and sand…now we have the M4 and M16A4 and the only problem is they are so accurate and such strong rifles they actually put rounds through an opponent without much damage at ranges out to 100 meters…


  130. lobo91
    131 | December 14, 2012 4:25 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    I’m still waiting for you to point out a single crime committed in the US using an actual military-type assault rifle.

    And no, the one today is not an example of one.


  131. 132 | December 14, 2012 4:27 pm

    @ fultonchain:
    My sister shot herself in the head with an illegal handgun. So I understand violence, death and guns. I still don’t believe in gun control. There will always be irresponsible, stupid, evil and dangerous people in this world. That cannot be controlled.


  132. lobo91
    133 | December 14, 2012 4:29 pm

    @ bluliner10:

    now we have the M4 and M16A4 and the only problem is they are so accurate and such strong rifles they actually put rounds through an opponent without much damage at ranges out to 100 meters…

    That’s an ammo problem. Beginning with the M16A2, we’ve used rounds that were designed to defeat soft body armor. At the same time, the only people we’ve fought since then are the least likely to actually wear it.

    Armor piercing ammo is a poor choice against unarmored targets, because it goes right through.


  133. SciFiGuy
    134 | December 14, 2012 4:31 pm

    @ MacDuff:
    After years and years of folklore and speculation it turns out that it was the rifle design. It was the oil used to lub and clean the weapon. It was reacting with the carbon from firing the rounds and causing the jamming.


  134. 135 | December 14, 2012 4:32 pm

    fultonchain wrote:

    Urban Infidel wrote:
    They can be all of those things and also be able to handle a gun legally and safely. Performance of my own profession is not affected at all by my ability to shoot when I go to the gun range.
    You can teach an eight year old to safely handle a gun. What you can’t teach an eight year old is good judgement — that applies to a great many adults too.
    When the licensing requirements for a deadly weapon are less than the requirements for a motor vehicle license, and they are sold to people we don’t trust enough to sell alcohol to, there is a problem.

    Guns should not be licensed. Why do you think they should and what will it accomplish?


  135. SciFiGuy
    136 | December 14, 2012 4:33 pm

    @ SciFiGuy:
    NOT the rifles design.. JEEES get it right you duffff.


  136. bluliner10
    137 | December 14, 2012 4:34 pm

    @ lobo91:
    Very true. In Iraq 2005 with the cool guys, we were allowed to famfire the SCAR. That was a great experience but every time you would pull the charging handle, it tore the hell out of your knuckles…but the SCAR was a 7.62 rifle…I approved then returned to my M16A2.


  137. lobo91
    138 | December 14, 2012 4:39 pm

    SciFiGuy wrote:

    @ MacDuff:
    After years and years of folklore and speculation it turns out that it was the rifle design. It was the oil used to lub and clean the weapon. It was reacting with the carbon from firing the rounds and causing the jamming.

    There was another factor involved with the problem that most people aren’t aware of.

    The original design was meant to fire ammo using a different type of propellant that was less prone to carbon fouling in the first place. The military in its infinite wisdom decided to save money by buying ammo that used conventional powder.


  138. bluliner10
    139 | December 14, 2012 4:41 pm

    Going home hug my daughter in laws kids…regardless the politics…this was a tragedy. A coward hates his life and takes as many with him as he could. My prayers go out to the families that lost their children or parents today. My prayers also that God will help the healing for those who witnessed, protected the other children or responded to the scene.


  139. SciFiGuy
    140 | December 14, 2012 4:44 pm

    @ lobo91:
    Yep, forgot that part..


  140. 141 | December 14, 2012 4:45 pm

    @ bluliner10:
    From the news: “His kindergarten teacher Mother was killed first in front of the entire classroom of her students — then he murdered the entire classroom of kindergarten students. One at a time. The entire class.”

    No human with a soul can ever comprehend the mind of this sort of evil. Monstrous.


  141. Da_Beerfreak
    142 | December 14, 2012 4:48 pm

    Yet another “Gun Free Zone” massacre of the innocents.

    Ban Liberals, not guns.


  142. Guggi
    143 | December 14, 2012 4:50 pm

    @ fultonchain:

    Apparently the shooter didn’t own the guns but his mother.


  143. SciFiGuy
    144 | December 14, 2012 4:50 pm

    @ bluliner10:
    Had a Match Grade M14 that almost exploded in my face during the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Matches back in 1982. Lost 2 points because the lower receiver was “mated” with fiberglass to the upper. THey failed to vacuum the mated assy and had bubbles in the glass. THe lower receiver cracked and would fly apart after 100 to 150 shots. put me out of contention for a medal that year…


  144. lobo91
    145 | December 14, 2012 4:51 pm

    @ SciFiGuy:

    The military is good at that sort of thing.

    When I was stationed at NTC back in the early ’80s, they built a new barracks complex, including a new dining facility. In an effort to save money, they decided to use the appliances out of the old one.

    A crew went into the old kitchen, unhooked everything, loaded it up on trucks, and hauled it all into the new kitchen.

    That was about the time that they realized that the old appliances ran on gas, and the new kitchen was all electric.

    They then had to haul everything back and reinstall it, and for several months, everyone had to drive across post to eat 3 times a day at the old building until they got new appliances.


  145. 146 | December 14, 2012 4:58 pm

    So of course the Hollywood libturds are all over Twitter demanding guns be banned:

    http://twitchy.com/2012/12/14/disgusting-lefty-celebs-crawl-out-to-politicize-newtown-conn-tragedy/?utm_source=autotweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter

    To which I say -- first you fire those bodyguard chauffers of yours and remove the gates from in front of your homes.


  146. Guggi
    147 | December 14, 2012 4:59 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Only one word: men

    :-P


  147. 148 | December 14, 2012 5:01 pm

    @ bluliner10:
    @ SciFiGuy:

    Thanks, guys. That was quite a useful history lesson, free of charge!


  148. lobo91
    149 | December 14, 2012 5:10 pm

    Well, I’m off to go set up for the gun show.


  149. 150 | December 14, 2012 5:10 pm

    In the absence of God, evil steps in, gays, transvestites, Muslims and the rest are gaining popularity with the left, unless they are stopped we are all doomed to a life of pain……


  150. common_sense
    151 | December 14, 2012 6:40 pm

    What do these shooters have in common ? college !

    what the fuck are their professors teaching them ?
    answer, HATE
    hate straights, hate families, hate republicans/conservatives, rich, fill in the blank oppressor

    just like the messiah in the white house who calls for his followers to get in their face, confront them, get revenge, and uses hateful terms like teabagger, etc.

    yes, liberalism is the mential disease they all possessed


  151. Moe Katz
    152 | December 14, 2012 6:43 pm

    Angrymike wrote:

    In the absence of God, evil steps in, gays, transvestites, Muslims and the rest are gaining popularity with the left, unless they are stopped we are all doomed to a life of pain……

    I’m sorry but this reads like parody.


  152. Moe Katz
    153 | December 14, 2012 6:46 pm

    Gays spend more of their income on personal consumption and have fewer kids in school, so they are good for the economy. Transvestites are good for the clothing industry.


  153. Calo
    154 | December 14, 2012 6:49 pm

    @ Moe Katz:
    Yep.

    22 year old male lost it and slaughtered innocent children.
    Again, when I see this type of senseless violence, I think mental illness …

    Not transvestites.


  154. livefreeor die
    155 | December 14, 2012 6:53 pm

    The guy who shot up the school was an evil monster. Evil like that knows no reason, no morals, no limits. He would have gotten guns no matter what laws were in place.
    I am happy that the laws allow me to own a weapon to protect myself and my family from such evil.


  155. Moe Katz
    156 | December 14, 2012 6:55 pm

    Calo wrote:

    when I see this type of senseless violence, I think mental illness

    Indeed.


  156. Brick
    157 | December 14, 2012 6:56 pm

    Calo wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Yep.
    22 year old male lost it and slaughtered innocent children.
    Again, when I see this type of senseless violence, I think mental illness …
    Not transvestites.

    Late teens, early twenties is about the time for onset of schizophrenia. What I can’t figure out is…if you’re ultimately going to kill yourself after killing a bunch of innocents -- why not just switch the order before you start?

    Evening, all.


  157. Calo
    158 | December 14, 2012 6:57 pm

    @ Moe Katz:
    Right age for a paranoid schizophrenic break.

    My two cents. Take it for what it is worth.


  158. eaglesoars
    159 | December 14, 2012 6:59 pm

    driveby -- haven’t read the thread

    There was not ONE armed adult around. Not. One.

    20 babies are dead because of self-imposed gun control.


  159. Moe Katz
    160 | December 14, 2012 6:59 pm

    Calo wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Right age for a paranoid schizophrenic break.
    My two cents. Take it for what it is worth.

    I’ll go along with that guess. We don’t have any background info about the young man and his family yet, do we?


  160. lobo91
    161 | December 14, 2012 7:08 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Calo wrote:
    @ Moe Katz:
    Right age for a paranoid schizophrenic break.
    My two cents. Take it for what it is worth.
    I’ll go along with that guess. We don’t have any background info about the young man and his family yet, do we?

    They were talking about his having some sort of “learning disability” or being autistic on the radio awhile ago. Who knows how accurate that is, of course.


  161. 4_Sticks
    162 | December 14, 2012 7:10 pm

    As far as arming teachers go -- well, the guns used to kill all these children have been confirmed to have belonged to the mother, a teacher (at the school etc) … not to mention this ‘armed’ teacher was killed with her own gun. And they were legally owned/registered.

    I don’t think there is a way to prevent these things from happening. The most we could hope for is to cut down on the loss of life. But, to a determined homicidal mad man, if hes of normal intelligence or above, where there is a will, there is a way. Look at what OBL cooked up.


  162. Moe Katz
    163 | December 14, 2012 7:11 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    Calo wrote:
    @ Moe Katz:
    Right age for a paranoid schizophrenic break.
    My two cents. Take it for what it is worth.
    I’ll go along with that guess. We don’t have any background info about the young man and his family yet, do we?
    They were talking about his having some sort of “learning disability” or being autistic on the radio awhile ago. Who knows how accurate that is, of course.

    Ah. So some kind of abnormality there, anyway…


  163. Calo
    164 | December 14, 2012 7:12 pm

    @ Moe Katz:
    I don’t really know his background.

    I am at work still and am just a driveby.


  164. song_and_dance_man
    165 | December 14, 2012 7:15 pm

    The call for a ban on assault weapons will begin. However the guns used were hand guns.


  165. lobo91
    166 | December 14, 2012 7:16 pm

    @ 4_Sticks:

    As far as arming teachers go — well, the guns used to kill all these children have been confirmed to have belonged to the mother, a teacher (at the school etc) … not to mention this ‘armed’ teacher was killed with her own gun. And they were legally owned/registered.

    What’s being reported now is that she was killed at home by the son, who then gathered up the guns and took her car to go to the school.


  166. lobo91
    167 | December 14, 2012 7:17 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    The call for a ban on assault weapons will begin. However the guns used were hand guns.

    No, one of them was apparently an AR-15.


  167. Brick
    168 | December 14, 2012 7:20 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    The call for a ban on assault weapons will begin. However the guns used were hand guns.

    A 20 year old is not permitted to possess handguns already. Not sure where else they could reasonably go with it? Also, I believe I’ve seen reports of an AR-15 at the scene as well.


  168. Brick
    169 | December 14, 2012 7:22 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ 4_Sticks:
    As far as arming teachers go — well, the guns used to kill all these children have been confirmed to have belonged to the mother, a teacher (at the school etc) … not to mention this ‘armed’ teacher was killed with her own gun. And they were legally owned/registered.
    What’s being reported now is that she was killed at home by the son, who then gathered up the guns and took her car to go to the school.

    Hate to sound macabre -- but I wonder what the hell was going through his mind on that drive?


  169. song_and_dance_man
    170 | December 14, 2012 7:24 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    No, one of them was apparently an AR-15.

    I didn’t know that. The reports I heard are hours old.


  170. 171 | December 14, 2012 7:27 pm

    @ Calo:

    Calo -- Dorian was looking for you earlier.


  171. lobo91
    172 | December 14, 2012 7:33 pm

    @ Brick:

    A 20 year old is not permitted to possess handguns already. Not sure where else they could reasonably go with it?

    That reminds me of the aftermath of Columbine. People were screaming for more laws then, too.

    They violated at least 6 federal laws before they fired the first shot, so I don’t know what new laws you could pass that would have prevented it.


  172. Calo
    173 | December 14, 2012 7:38 pm

    @ Carolina Girl:
    Thanks CG

    I responded to Dorian in an earlier thread today and he replied.


  173. Brick
    174 | December 14, 2012 7:40 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Brick:
    A 20 year old is not permitted to possess handguns already. Not sure where else they could reasonably go with it?
    That reminds me of the aftermath of Columbine. People were screaming for more laws then, too.
    They violated at least 6 federal laws before they fired the first shot, so I don’t know what new laws you could pass that would have prevented it.

    I think as more details emerge about this young man’s past -- we’ll see many missed signals and opportunities for intervention that could have prevented this. Shades of Ft. Hood. Of course, the other possibility is that he was just evil incarnate.


  174. lobo91
    175 | December 14, 2012 7:44 pm

    @ Brick:

    I think as more details emerge about this young man’s past — we’ll see many missed signals and opportunities for intervention that could have prevented this. Shades of Ft. Hood. Of course, the other possibility is that he was just evil incarnate.

    It’s funny how these things have changed over the years. The old cliche after some kind of horrific crime was that the neighbors would always say “what a nice, quiet man he was” or something.

    These days, it always seems to be, “Yeah, everybody who knew him thought he was a nutcase.”


  175. Moe Katz
    176 | December 14, 2012 8:04 pm

    Brick wrote:

    Of course, the other possibility is that he was just evil incarnate.

    Well it’s not really the act of someone that’s ‘evil incarnate,’ i.e. a sociopath. This is about someone that’s angry and hurting real bad.


  176. 4_Sticks
    177 | December 14, 2012 8:17 pm

    Wonder if he wasn’t on one of the new ‘wonder drugs’ (psychotropic) ?

    Just sayin’


  177. Brick
    178 | December 14, 2012 8:20 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Well it’s not really the act of someone that’s ‘evil incarnate,’ i.e. a sociopath. This is about someone that’s angry and hurting real bad.

    Angry and hurting real bad, will key a car’s paint job.

    A sociopath slaughters a room full of little kids after killing his own mom.


  178. Brick
    179 | December 14, 2012 8:22 pm

    4_Sticks wrote:

    Wonder if he wasn’t on one of the new ‘wonder drugs’ (psychotropic) ?
    Just sayin’

    It would certainly fit the recent pattern of young mass killers on SSRIs.


  179. livefreeor die
    180 | December 14, 2012 8:31 pm

    Brick wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    Well it’s not really the act of someone that’s ‘evil incarnate,’ i.e. a sociopath. This is about someone that’s angry and hurting real bad.
    Angry and hurting real bad, will key a car’s paint job.
    A sociopath slaughters a room full of little kids after killing his own mom.

    Yup. Millions of people are angry and hurting at any point in time. Killing small children, one by one, requires a deliberate effort.


  180. darkwords
    181 | December 14, 2012 9:20 pm

    @ 146 Carolina Girl: Hollywood movies are probably a cause in the killer. He learned by watching


  181. darkwords
    182 | December 14, 2012 9:21 pm

    @ 151 common_sense: They go to college because a job won’t hold them. College is an escape for them where they aren’t helped.


  182. darkwords
    183 | December 14, 2012 9:24 pm

    @ 154 Calo:
    I’ll agree. I think the best overall solution here is to legislate it so parents of adult kids with mental illness can get them incarcerated for evaluation involuntarily. And assign a category to types of mental illness that flag one as unable to own a gun.


  183. Moe Katz
    184 | December 14, 2012 9:53 pm

    livefreeor die wrote:

    Yup. Millions of people are angry and hurting at any point in time. Killing small children, one by one, requires a deliberate effort.

    Agreed. But that isn’t inconsistent with what I said.


  184. Moe Katz
    185 | December 14, 2012 9:56 pm

    @ darkwords:
    Science fiction idea: maybe some day a really smart gun that can detect if the person wielding it is nuts.


  185. Calo
    186 | December 14, 2012 11:10 pm

    @ Moe Katz:
    IIRC, both you and LiveFree work in the mental health profession.

    So, I’ll defer to your opinions on the shooter and his actions.


  186. Philip_Daniel
    187 | December 14, 2012 11:31 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    That reminds me of the aftermath of Columbine. People were screaming for more laws then, too.

    Policy cannot reform human nature.


  187. Moe Katz
    188 | December 14, 2012 11:46 pm

    @ Calo:
    Well, FWIW, here’s a summary of that diagnostic category from the NIMH site

    It doesn’t seem to me that it fits.


  188. Calo
    189 | December 15, 2012 12:06 am

    @ Moe Katz:
    No, anti social personality disorder doesn’t fit.

    I think I am asking about a dx of schizophrenia, organized vs unorganized.
    Meh, it’s been a while since I have delved into DSM IV dx.


  189. 4_Sticks
    190 | December 15, 2012 1:14 am

    @ 4_Sticks:

    Its been buggin’ me that this kindergarten teacher would have such weapons in her home … this is Connecticut don’t forget …
    Then it dawned on me … The sick little b*st*rd could not make a fire arms purchase due to his psych. history. Over indulgent mom (with feeling of ‘guilt’ due to the failed marriage yadda yadda) is manipulated/ hounded to make the purchase for his dream weapons (possibly Christmas presents ?) in her name. The evil little sob then murders her with the present shes just bought him -- no to mention the unspeakable horrors he carried out a short time later.

    just sayin’


  190. Calo
    191 | December 15, 2012 1:24 am

    @ 4_Sticks:
    Just sayin’, as a mom, I am glad I am on Windows 8 tonight and still can’t find my way around it to even begin find your comment to respond to, let alone slap you.


  191. 4_Sticks
    192 | December 15, 2012 9:20 am

    @ Calo:

    Huh ??? WTH ??


  192. 4_Sticks
    193 | December 15, 2012 9:42 am

    @ Calo:

    What does any of what I wrote have to do with being a ‘mom’ ? Unless you’re a divorced w/ children, NE primary school teacher mom, you have no idea what both teachers and LEOs (often married to one another in the ‘bubs of NYC) around these parts were speculating about (trying to make sense out of/come to terms with) yesterday/last night besides the killings themselves. I, being a divorced dad, offered a possible situation based on the well known dynamics in these divorce situations. Had it been the father, I would have said the same thing except I wouldn’t find the gun ownership part quite as curious.
    The fact of the matter is that you don’t find many school teachers big on guns in these parts -- especially those of the female persuasion. She had a decent little arsenal and many feel she was afraid of something and wondering what it was she feared.
    I say more power to her if she was simply a proud gun owner/hunter. Amongst her peers, she would no doubt keep said ownership to herself though as the vast majority feel such ownership is the cause of these situations.
    If you think I’m being insensitive, check out the time of my post. I was up until after 4am this morning because this story rattled me so badly.
    Just trying to make some sense of it all, thats all. Sorry you were so offended, it was not my intent to do so.


  193. 4_Sticks
    194 | December 15, 2012 9:55 am

    @ lobo91:

    Yes, thats my point. Even with armed teachers, this particular scenario still might have went down the exact same way.
    One of the weapons she owned and kept in the home would have been her ‘service’ hand gun, so to speak, which he grabbed and killed her with before heading to the school.
    At the school, well, all I can say is that once he made it past security,
    30 shots doesn’t take long.
    I’m assuming also he used his moms affiliation with the school to gain entrance and no one suspected he was up to no good until it was too late.


  194. 4_Sticks
    195 | December 15, 2012 9:57 am

    @ Calo:

    40 years myself.


  195. RIX
    196 | December 15, 2012 10:02 am

    @ 4_Sticks:

    I’m assuming also he used his moms affiliation with the school to gain entrance and no one suspected he was up to no good until it was too late.

    FNC reported this morning that he was not given entry.
    He apparently broke in, smashing a window.


  196. 4_Sticks
    197 | December 15, 2012 10:06 am

    @ Brick:
    One things certain, we will never know now. An acute psychotic break or a long standing delusion -- who knows. Precursor(s) (antecedent) ? Maybe the dad can/will shed some light. If he has a long standing delusional thought process, auditory hallucinations eg ‘hearing voices’ etc that would explain a lot. Having worked for many years with schizophrenic of the paranoid variety, I can tell ya until you get to know them, you have NO idea what they’re thinking. It can be pretty jarring to learn whats been going through their heads. I’ve had ‘the hair on the back of my neck’ raised more than once.


  197. RIX
    198 | December 15, 2012 10:16 am

    davidfrum@davidfrum
    Shooting at CT elementary school. Obviously, we need to lower the age limit for concealed carry so toddlers can defend themselves

    This is a tweet from David Frum. Hard to believe isn’t it?


  198. 4_Sticks
    199 | December 15, 2012 10:31 am

    @ RIX:

    Thank you. That would explain the radio call from the 1st LEO/responder concerning a smashed window.


  199. 4_Sticks
    200 | December 15, 2012 10:32 am

    @ RIX:

    If Calo wants to smack someone ….

    just sayin


  200. Calo
    201 | December 15, 2012 10:35 am

    @ 4_Sticks:
    Thank you, but I will defer to others on this blog for now.


  201. 4_Sticks
    202 | December 15, 2012 10:51 am

    @ RIX:

    And yes, had, at the very least, the principal been armed, this may have had a very different outcome. I’m not knocking the idea -- just looking at the fact that the mom was an armed teacher who wasn’t able to stop a determined killer.


  202. coldwarrior
    203 | December 15, 2012 10:55 am

    new thread….

    on this very topic


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