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You Useful Idiots Voted For This

by coldwarrior ( 165 Comments › )
Filed under Economy, Education, Elections 2012, Elections 2016, Open thread at December 22nd, 2012 - 3:00 pm

Open Thread

 

You Useful Idiots Voted For This! Deal with it.

 

American Dream Fades for Generation Y Professionals

After being dismissed from her job as a Midtown Manhattan securities attorney in October 2009, Christina Tretter-Herriger hitched a used horse trailer to her Dodge Ram pickup and drove 1,628 miles to Texas.

The 32-year-old lawyer sold skin-care products in Houston before finding work as the assistant general counsel of a futures-trading firm where an irate customer punctuated a recorded voice-mail message with gunfire.

“No one was left with the impression that he just happened to be phoning from a sporting clays range,” she says.

Eighteen months and two busted jobs later, the daughter of a retired physician and a former editor at Vogue circled back to upstate New York and hunkered down at a small legal office that pays about one-quarter of her former $165,000 salary.

Generation Y professionals entering the workforce are finding careers that once were gateways to high pay and upwardly mobile lives turning into detours and dead ends. Average incomes for individuals ages 25 to 34 have fallen 8 percent, double the adult population’s total drop, since the recession began in December 2007. Their unemployment rate remains stuck one-half to 1 percentage point above the national figure.

Three and a half years after the worst recession since the Great Depression, the earnings and employment gap between those in the under-35 population and their parents and grandparents threatens to unravel the American dream of each generation doing better than the last. The nation’s younger workers have benefited least from an economic recovery that has been the most uneven in recent history.

‘Permanently Depressed’

“This generation will be permanently depressed and will be on a lower path of income for probably all of their life — and at least the next 10 years,” says Rutgers professor Cliff Zukin, a senior research fellow at the university’s John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development. Professionals who start out in jobs other than their first choice tend to stay on the alternative path, earning less than they would have otherwise while becoming less likely to start over again later in preferred fields, Zukin says.

Michael Greenstone, who was chief economist at the White House Council of Economic Advisers in 2009 and 2010, says the shift to a downwardly mobile society may be lasting. “Children are not earning as much as their parents, and I think we’re laying the seeds for that to continue into the future,” he says.

Only one-fifth of those who graduated college since 2006 expect greater success than their parents, a Rutgers survey found earlier this year. Little more than half were working full time. Just one in five said their job put them on a career path.

Disappearing Jobs

Those who finish only high school or drop out fare worse. Almost four out of five jobs destroyed by the recession were held by workers with a high school diploma or less, according to Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce.

Middle-income jobs are disappearing for a wide range of young professionals. The number of financial counselors and loan officers ages 25 to 34 has dropped 40 percent since 2007, outpacing the 30 percent drop in total jobs for the profession, according to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Similarly, the number of hours logged by first-year and mid-level legal associates — a productivity measure of young lawyers — fell 12 percent from 2007 at some of New York’s largest law firms, says Jeff Grossman, national managing director of Wells Fargo Private Bank’s Legal Specialty Group in Charlotte, North Carolina. Yet profits per partner climbed $50,697 to $1.5 million on revenue of $66 billion last year, according to a separate survey of 86 of the world’s top law firms by The American Lawyer magazine.

Lost Faith

“I had a lot of faith in the system, the mythology that if you work really hard you can achieve anything, and the stock market always goes up,” says 2009 law school graduate Elizabeth Hallock, 33. “It was pretty naïve on my part.”

Hallock is the named plaintiff in one of 14 lawsuits against some of the nation’s best-known law schools, including her alma mater, the University of San Francisco School of Law. The civil complaints, filed in 2011 and 2012, accuse the institutions of overstating graduates’ job-placement results and incomes.

Young Americans are struggling to reconcile their lack of economic rewards with their relatively privileged upbringings by Baby Boomer parents and the material success of their older peers, Generation X, born in the late 1960s and 1970s, says Kathy Sheehan, general manager of GfK Consumer Trends and Roper Reports, a unit of German-based research firm GfK.

Great Expectations

“It’s a generation that had really high expectations, in some part driven by the way they were raised by their boomer parents,” she says. “Yet in the past five years they have had reality slammed in their face by the employment situation.”

About 61 million people, one-fifth of the U.S. population, work at jobs where median earnings declined since 2007 even as the 1.2 million households whose incomes put them in the top 1 percent saw their pay rise 5.5 percent last year. Younger workers are experiencing the worst of the disparity in part because they’re being displaced by older workers. The number of employees ages 55 to 64 is expected to surpass the under-24 working population by 2020 for the first time since at least World War II, according to the BLS.

Dashed expectations crimped even some of the most innovative corners of the economy. Daniel White was wrapping up a week-long vacation to Vermont two summers ago when a co-worker at Chicago-based Groupon Inc. (GRPN) called to share the news that White was about to be fired from the e-commerce discounter.

Father’s Power

The 27-year-old business school graduate was living from paycheck to paycheck, cold-calling hair salons and pizza parlors in Youngstown, Ohio, from crowded offices at company headquarters when he found himself out on the street.

“To be honest, I’m glad it happened,” he says. “I guess I owe that to Steve Jobs, who made getting fired cool.”

This year, White says, he hopes to earn $2,000 at his own startup Web-sales venture in Burlington, Vermont, seeing technology as the one path to potentially matching his father’s generation, “the people with the money and power.”

In more traditional jobs, the fallout from the subprime- mortgage collapse a half-decade ago continues to pummel people, including the architects who designed homes. The number of them ages 25 to 34 has fallen by 41 percent since 2007, compared with the total drop in the profession of 25 percent.

At the Seattle architectural firm of Callison LLC, faces and names began to disappear from the staff directory almost immediately after new hire Eli Hardi joined in January 2008.

Smaller Paychecks

“People would drop off on a daily basis,” says Hardi, 28, a recent graduate of a five-year architecture degree program in California. Within a few months, Hardi rose from an hourly to salaried position. The promotion wiped out overtime pay and reduced his annual income by 12 percent to $39,500, he says.

The smaller paycheck reflected cost-cutting that has erased 40 percent of U.S. architectural firms’ revenue and almost one- third of their personnel since early 2008, according to the American Institute of Architects in Washington.

Hardi worked through Christmas and New Year’s before being laid off during the first week of January 2009, 13 months after his hiring. He walked home in the cold to his apartment and new big-screen TV that was now a symbol of his uprooted ambitions.

“It’s a bit sudden, a bit jarring,” he says. Still, “there’s a certain sense of relief that you don’t have to deal with the sword hanging over your head. I almost felt worse for the people who had to stay, knowing they might lose their jobs.”

Highest Unemployment

Architecture graduates ages 25 to 29 had the highest unemployment rate of 57 degree programs surveyed by the Education Department in 2009. Their 9.6 percent jobless level rivaled the 10.6 percent unemployment for all Americans ages 25 to 29 that year, including those without college degrees. Nursing fared the best with a 1.5 percent jobless rate.

Hardi was called back, at his previous salary, in January 2010 as Callison won store-design work for Apple Inc. (AAPL)

“The hours were long, the pay was low and we got a notice saying the bonus would be minimal,” he says. “The hardest part, I found, is to maintain your own self respect and dignity.” In March, he quit to join a smaller firm where he works on historical renovations.

The same housing crash that hammered young architects and loan officers also slammed lawyers. Law schools are turning out about 45,000 degree holders a year for about 25,000 full-time positions available to them, according to the National Association for Law Placement Inc. in Washington. The class of 2011 had the lowest placement with law firms, 49.5 percent, in 36 years.

Tougher Path

“It is not the perfect path to wealth and success that people may have envisioned,” says Robin Sparkman, editor in chief of The American Lawyer magazine in New York.

Some of the disenchanted have taken their complaints to court. Plaintiffs’ attorneys and recent law-school graduates are pushing to change what they call law schools’ overstated reports of post-graduation employment numbers. The results are used in magazine rankings of the institutions and to recruit new applicants. In state-court lawsuits, the former students allege false advertising and consumer fraud.

The claims are “meritless,” says Angie Davis, spokeswoman for the University of San Francisco School of Law. “We are sympathetic to the difficulty faced by law school graduates nationwide in finding employment on the heels of the Great Recession,” she says, adding the university helps students find work, and many have found “successful, rewarding careers.”

Contested Lawsuits

With the lawsuits playing out, the Chicago-based American Bar Association began requiring accredited schools to disclose far more detailed information about new graduates’ employment beginning in December 2011.

This July, San Francisco County Superior Court Judge Harold Kahn allowed lawsuits against USF and Golden Gate University to proceed, ruling that some law-school graduates may have a basis for claims that they were deceived. Judges in Illinois and Michigan rejected similar complaints.

“It’s hard to look at the information the schools were putting out and say it’s not misleading,” says Derek Tokaz, research director of the nonprofit Law School Transparency initiative. It published research showing that the chance of recent graduates getting permanent full-time work in law was far lower than the 80-95 percent total employment rates the schools typically boasted.

Lehman Fallout

Tokaz, 28, worked with Tretter-Herriger at the Manhattan law firm of Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle LLP. She joined the firm in September 2008, the same month that Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. collapsed, gradually setting off panic on Wall Street and around the world.

The late nights and long weeks awaited by first-year associates as a grueling rite of passage didn’t come, she says. Instead, there was so little work to do that the hedge fund lawyers and recruiters she worked with frequently retreated after lunch to a street-level pub to watch English soccer.

Tretter-Herriger says she and some other first-year associates were fired 13 months later with the proviso they could keep their desks and look for jobs through October. She found one at the Houston futures trading firm. When it later outsourced some of its legal work, she moved on again and answered an ad on Craigslist for a job in Buffalo, New York.

She now complements her $45,000 lawyer’s salary by training horses and giving riding lessons. She says she’d like to buy a rental property and become self-sufficient in case she loses this job.

“As it is, all of my possessions still fit in the back of my truck,” she says. “I can pack it in a couple hours, pick up the trailer and horses and move anywhere the gas tank will take me at the drop of a hat. What can the system take away from you when you have that kind of freedom?”

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165 Responses to “You Useful Idiots Voted For This”
( jump to bottom )

  1. RIX
    1 | December 22, 2012 3:21 pm

    This situation is blithely referred to as the new normal
    but the Upper East Side set.
    This situation is anything but normal.
    It is an abnormal situation created by a childish, irresponsible
    President and his supporters.
    Spending money borrowed from China on
    Green Energy schemes, while building up the public sector
    abusing taxpayers.
    ObamaCare is a fiasco which will hasten economic ruin.


  2. irradicable
    2 | December 22, 2012 3:34 pm

    So much for the hope they voted for. Change!


  3. RIX
    3 | December 22, 2012 3:44 pm

    Sandra Fluke is now claiming that”How we raise our boys” is
    a contributing factor to violence in America.
    Should I value the opinion of a 30 year old woman who wants
    society to provide her with birth control and has never raised a boy
    or a girl or something in between?Let me think.
    Nah.


  4. whosoever
    4 | December 22, 2012 3:55 pm

    Whatever happened to raising our sons to be Godly men?


  5. irradicable
  6. RIX
    6 | December 22, 2012 4:13 pm

    @ irradicable:

    Now that’s good.


  7. yenta-fada
    7 | December 22, 2012 4:16 pm

    When I chose a career, I made sure I could make a living at it. Worked through University. Sorry, I don’t get anyone who sues a Law School because she didn’t use her brains to notice the economy. (world’s tiniest violin)


  8. eaglesoars
    8 | December 22, 2012 4:18 pm

    Have you see what’s going on in real estate?

    Legendary advertising guru Jerry Della Femina is the latest Hamptons fat cat to unload his East End spread at the precipice of the dreaded fiscal cliff, The Post has learned.

    The flamboyant Madison Avenue guru has sold his 8,500-square-foot estate — the host of many legendary Hamptons bashes — for $25 million, and blames his flight squarely on President Obama’s fiscal policies.

    “I want the proceeds of this sale to go to my kids and my grandkids,” said the man behind iconic ad campaigns for Meow Mix and Absolut Vodka. “I don’t want my money going to Obama, and that’s what’s going to happen in the New Year. That’s why I sold right now, that’s why I wanted to get this done.”
    [ ]
    Della Femina’s buzzer-beating sale is just one of many big-ticket closings sweeping the Hamptons as affluent homeowners seek to move their blue-chip digs before taking a capital-gains beating in the coming year.

    A fall off the fiscal cliff could trigger a 40 percent rise in taxes on short-term investments and a 5 percent spike in taxes on long-term capital gains.

    He got taxed out of town.


  9. yenta-fada
    9 | December 22, 2012 4:25 pm

    @ eaglesoars:

    That class of people know how to shelter their money from taxes. Those of us who have had them deducted automatically from pay slips never have the luxury. The rich ARE different because they learn how not pay taxes, e.g. Warren Buffett. That’s mega-rich, of course.


  10. yenta-fada
    10 | December 22, 2012 4:26 pm

    @ yenta-fada:

    pimf: ‘how TO not pay taxes’


  11. yenta-fada
    11 | December 22, 2012 4:30 pm

    Corny, but I like these lessons from dogs:

    · When loved ones come home, always run to greet them;
    · Never pass up the opportunity to go for a joyride;
    · Allow the experience of fresh air and the wind in your face to be pure Ecstasy;
    · Take naps;
    · Stretch before rising;
    · Run, romp, and play daily;
    · Thrive on attention and let people touch you;
    · Avoid biting when a simple growl will do;
    · On warm days, stop to lie on your back on the grass;
    · On hot days, drink lots of water and lie under a shady tree;
    · When you’re happy, dance around and wag your entire body;
    · Delight in the simple joy of a long walk;
    · Be loyal;
    · Never pretend to be something you’re not;
    · If what you want lies buried, dig until you find it;
    · When someone is having a bad day, be silent, sit close by, and nuzzle them gently;


  12. heysoos
    12 | December 22, 2012 4:31 pm

    irradicable wrote:

    LOL at Vietnam veterans for Kerry:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FqHe1tmBgWs/UNSwCXjsbII/AAAAAAAAYAs/IMwkYtcxfgI/s1600/Vietnam-Vets-for-Kerry-SecDef.jpg

    my brother in law spent nearly three years in VN, USArmy…in that time he examined the culture even learned a bit of the language and generally he became quite fond of the people…that said certainly doesn’t make either me or him an expert…but Kerry’s duty just doesn’t make complete sense mand leaves you wondering…his SB duty was only around 5-6 months, moist patroling up and down the Mekong, without much contact with villagers ashore…typical contact was never face to face, as usual you had to find them and those guys did not like leaving their boats in indian country…not a particularly dangerous job relatively speaking, but he somehow came off that little half tour wounded a couple of times, ashore chasing some kid, and of course the medals…his After Action Reports were odd, mostly inconclusive and didn’t always jibe with others perception…a nd finally he never really reconciled any suspicions about his gig over there..the whole idea was to kill the enemy from the water…going ashore could be suicidal blah blah…I didn’t read the SBVets book but I can understand how he would indulge in overglorifying events and in fact lying…aside from all that he lied to congress and met with NVA officials illegally, the only reaso he wasn’t court marshaled was the fact at that point the war was wildly unpopular…just my take


  13. 13 | December 22, 2012 4:33 pm

    Test message from my Mom’ s Kindle Fire Device….


  14. 14 | December 22, 2012 4:36 pm

    Is Boehner out as Speaker?

    Let’s hope this comes true…


  15. yenta-fada
    15 | December 22, 2012 4:36 pm

    The Useful Idiots SHOULD be launching lawsuits at Bill Ayers:

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/bill-ayers-the-left-must-utilize-its-absolute-access-to-americas-classrooms/


  16. eaglesoars
    16 | December 22, 2012 4:38 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    they learn how not pay taxes, e.g. Warren Buffett.

    Buffett owes MILLIONS in taxes he just refuses to pay.


  17. irradicable
    17 | December 22, 2012 4:41 pm

    @Rix HolgerAwakens had it up

    @heysoos Thanks for sharing your perspective. Kerry strikes me as slimey and slivery.


  18. RIX
    18 | December 22, 2012 4:43 pm

    @ heysoos:

    Over 60 Swift Boat vets were eye witnesses & claim that Kerrys
    claims to heroism are a collection of exaggerations and outright
    fabrications.
    What is known is that he falsely defamed Viet Vets in front of the
    Fulbright Committee & abetted the enemy at the Paris Peace talks.


  19. irradicable
    19 | December 22, 2012 4:43 pm

    err, slithery. pimf.


  20. yenta-fada
    20 | December 22, 2012 4:47 pm

    irradicable wrote:

    err, slithery. pimf.

    New face. Hi!


  21. yenta-fada
    21 | December 22, 2012 4:48 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    they learn how not pay taxes, e.g. Warren Buffett.

    Buffett owes MILLIONS in taxes he just refuses to pay.

    Yeah. We should try it. /


  22. heysoos
    22 | December 22, 2012 4:48 pm

    irradicable wrote:

    err, slithery. pimf.

    I read what I type and have decided it’s time for a new cordless keyboard…a bunch of my keys have nearly quit working…that’s my excuse


  23. eaglesoars
    23 | December 22, 2012 4:50 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    We should try it

    Something about Cayman Islands via Ireland rings a bell.


  24. 24 | December 22, 2012 4:51 pm

    Eh. Going on 39 years in a highly cyclical industry here, so I have damned-little (okay, none) sympathy for these idiots. Been there, done that, couldn’t afford the T-shirt.


  25. heysoos
    25 | December 22, 2012 4:52 pm

    RIX wrote:

    @ heysoos:
    Over 60 Swift Boat vets were eye witnesses & claim that Kerrys
    claims to heroism are a collection of exaggerations and outright
    fabrications.
    What is known is that he falsely defamed Viet Vets in front of the
    Fulbright Committee & abetted the enemy at the Paris Peace talks.

    whoa, just googled Kerry…quite a bit about his service for anyone interested further


  26. eaglesoars
    26 | December 22, 2012 4:52 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Corny, but I like these lessons from dogs:

    -drink out of the toilet every chance you get, then go kiss Mom


  27. yenta-fada
    27 | December 22, 2012 5:01 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Corny, but I like these lessons from dogs:

    -drink out of the toilet every chance you get, then go kiss Mom

    Thanks for the smellovisual.


  28. Bumr50
    28 | December 22, 2012 5:04 pm

    @ Macker:

    Coming through loud and clear.

    Are you using voice-to-text?


  29. eaglesoars
    29 | December 22, 2012 5:08 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Thanks for the smellovisual.

    Most welcome! Courtesy of my border collie, Tramp


  30. yenta-fada
    30 | December 22, 2012 5:13 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Thanks for the smellovisual.

    Most welcome! Courtesy of my border collie, Tramp

    http://www.jsmineset.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/clip_image0019.jpg


  31. Bumr50
    31 | December 22, 2012 5:15 pm

    My dog hates to poop in the rain and snow, and consequently has had a very rough week.


  32. yenta-fada
    32 | December 22, 2012 5:16 pm

    Mike C. wrote:

    Eh. Going on 39 years in a highly cyclical industry here, so I have damned-little (okay, none) sympathy for these idiots. Been there, done that, couldn’t afford the T-shirt.

    Seriously. Most of us are ‘little people’ relying upon our wits for a lifetime.


  33. yenta-fada
    33 | December 22, 2012 5:17 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    My dog hates to poop in the rain and snow, and consequently has had a very rough week.

    Welcome to the ‘just say the first thing that comes into your brain’ thread. lol lol. Nice to see you.


  34. yenta-fada
    34 | December 22, 2012 5:19 pm

    The king and queen are actually taking the same plane to Hawaii. It must be rough out there.

    http://lh6.ggpht.com/-umTEO7z4SB4/UNXQOQCLmSI/AAAAAAAAvQ0/gR0IISToawE/s1600-h/bo%252520mo%252520leaving%252520for%252520hawaii%25255B6%25255D.jpg


  35. yenta-fada
    35 | December 22, 2012 5:25 pm

    Did I “Lily” the thread? It would be a giant Christmas present to have Lily back to full strength.


  36. eaglesoars
    36 | December 22, 2012 5:25 pm

    Obviously, most won’t admit or recognize that they’re afflicted with Stick-it-to-The-Man-e-osis. In their feverish state, many Obama-supporters believe that they won a “mandate” to Obama-money, whether it grows on trees or piles up in bottomless stashes of The Man. But some have woken up from their delirium to find, instead of gas in their car’s tanks and paid-off mortgages, pink slips in their mailboxes or reduced working hours. Others will find that they will probably not be able to keep either their doctor or their insurance, and that a very powerful Man — Uncle Sam — has invited himself into the examining room.

    Stickin’ It to The Man


  37. yenta-fada
    37 | December 22, 2012 5:26 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    My dog hates to poop in the rain and snow, and consequently has had a very rough week.

    Is it something I said….


  38. Bumr50
    38 | December 22, 2012 5:27 pm

    @ yenta-fada:

    Or Mooch doesn’t trust him on the other plane.


  39. Bumr50
    39 | December 22, 2012 5:29 pm

    @ yenta-fada:

    Nope!

    Good to see you as well.

    I saw some ‘dog talk’ and decided to give an update.


  40. yenta-fada
    40 | December 22, 2012 5:29 pm

    zerohedge notices Ozero is lying:

    What a year 2012 has been! The mainstream media continues to tell us what a “great job” the Obama administration and the Federal Reserve are doing of managing the economy, but meanwhile things just continue to get even worse for the poor and the middle class. It is imperative that we educate the American people about the true condition of our economy and about why all of this is happening.


  41. yenta-fada
    41 | December 22, 2012 5:31 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    @ yenta-fada:

    Or Mooch doesn’t trust him on the other plane.

    I’m pretty sure she’s busy recovering from another round of cosmetic surgery on her face and liposuction on everywhere else. She looks like a different person from the first campaign. Good thing that the Saudis are probably footing that bill. /


  42. brookly red
    42 | December 22, 2012 5:33 pm

    Re: Younger workers are experiencing the worst of the disparity in part because they’re being displaced by older workers. The number of employees ages 55 to 64 is expected to surpass the under-24 working population by 2020 for the first time since at least World War II, according to the BLS.

    I was actually in a meeting this week going over next years scope of work and the “young lady” sitting next to me actually had facebook up on her laptop… that just might have something to do with it.


  43. Bumr50
    43 | December 22, 2012 5:33 pm

    @ yenta-fada:

    Cleopatra wannabe.


  44. yenta-fada
    44 | December 22, 2012 5:34 pm

    From ‘smalldeadanimals’

    The World Is Being Run By Crazy People

    Business Insider;

    “After a 25-year ban, California sea otters are now free to float along the entire coast without being captured and hauled back to Northern California.

    The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ended its “Southern Sea Otter Translocation Program” on Tuesday, Dec. 18, which forbid otters from paddling south of Point Conception — where the Santa Barbara Channel meets the Pacific Ocean — to the Mexican border.”


  45. yenta-fada
    45 | December 22, 2012 5:35 pm

    @ brookly red:

    “Great Expectations”


  46. 46 | December 22, 2012 5:36 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:
    Corny, but I like these lessons from dogs:
    -drink out of the toilet every chance you get, then go kiss Mom

    My Dobe has a slightly different routine. First, drink from any available source (water bowl, toilet whatever); Second, run drip on Daddy’s pants leg. This works best five minutes before he is supposed to leave for work!

    It is even more fun when Daddy is wearing tan pants that stain!


  47. brookly red
    47 | December 22, 2012 5:37 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    From ‘smalldeadanimals’

    The World Is Being Run By Crazy People

    Business Insider;

    “After a 25-year ban, California sea otters are now free to float along the entire coast without being captured and hauled back to Northern California.

    California has trouble with the whole capture & haul back concept in general…


  48. 48 | December 22, 2012 5:37 pm

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/12/you-get-nothing-i-get-that-for-free/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LegalInsurrection+%28Le%C2%B7gal+In%C2%B7sur%C2%B7rec%C2%B7tion%29

    Mr. Obama repeatedly lost patience with the speaker as negotiations faltered. In an Oval Office meeting last week, he told Mr. Boehner that if the sides didn’t reach agreement, he would use his inaugural address and his State of the Union speech to tell the country the Republicans were at fault.

    At one point, according to notes taken by a participant, Mr. Boehner told the president, “I put $800 billion [in tax revenue] on the table. What do I get for that?”

    “You get nothing,” the president said. “I get that for free.”

    time to sit down in the snow. obama was NEVER negotiating in good faith. he wants us to go over the fiscal cliff. the worse we have it, the better he will like it.


  49. eaglesoars
    49 | December 22, 2012 5:38 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    I was actually in a meeting this week going over next years scope of work and the “young lady” sitting next to me actually had facebook up on her laptop… that just might have something to do with it.

    face palm


  50. Bumr50
    50 | December 22, 2012 5:41 pm

    @ brookly red:

    Progressive work ethic brought to you by academia.


  51. eaglesoars
    51 | December 22, 2012 5:43 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    “After a 25-year ban, California sea otters are now free to float along the entire coast without being captured and hauled back to Northern California.

    what was the point of that again?


  52. brookly red
    52 | December 22, 2012 5:45 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    @ brookly red:

    Progressive work ethic brought to you by academia.

    I figure natural selection will sort it out… those that cross the street while txting probably should not pass their genes on anyways.


  53. eaglesoars
    53 | December 22, 2012 5:46 pm

    Kirly wrote:

    obama was NEVER negotiating in good faith.

    Remember that he wanted an unlimited debt ceiling and wanted complete control over it?

    Blatantly unconsitutional.


  54. heysoos
    54 | December 22, 2012 5:46 pm

    sometimes I wonder if BO is so naive and out of touch that he does not realize how pissed off people are gonna get soon…and with a dysfunctional Secret Service, his odds to have an accident is greatly increased


  55. brookly red
    55 | December 22, 2012 5:47 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    “After a 25-year ban, California sea otters are now free to float along the entire coast without being captured and hauled back to Northern California.

    what was the point of that again?

    I don’t know but the state otter relocation union is mighty pissed.


  56. yenta-fada
    56 | December 22, 2012 5:50 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    “After a 25-year ban, California sea otters are now free to float along the entire coast without being captured and hauled back to Northern California.

    what was the point of that again?

    I figure it was like the ‘save the delta smelt’ program which denied water to the agricultural heartland of California. That was a story I heard from an online friend who lives in Stockton, CA.


  57. brookly red
    57 | December 22, 2012 5:51 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    I figure it was like the ‘save the delta smelt’ program which denied water to the agricultural heartland of California. That was a story I heard from an online friend who lives in Stockton, CA.

    and yet they want to run the healthcare system…


  58. yenta-fada
    58 | December 22, 2012 5:52 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    sometimes I wonder if BO is so naive and out of touch that he does not realize how pissed off people are gonna get soon…and with a dysfunctional Secret Service, his odds to have an accident is greatly increased

    HE IS NOT NAIVE. He’s a basketball court full of psychiatric diagnoses.


  59. yenta-fada
    59 | December 22, 2012 5:52 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    I figure it was like the ‘save the delta smelt’ program which denied water to the agricultural heartland of California. That was a story I heard from an online friend who lives in Stockton, CA.

    and yet they want to run the healthcare system…

    “run” was obviously a typo for “ruin”.


  60. eaglesoars
    60 | December 22, 2012 5:53 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    sometimes I wonder if BO is so naive and out of touch that he does not realize how pissed off people are gonna get soon…

    don’t kid yourself -- that’s icing on the cake for him.


  61. eaglesoars
    61 | December 22, 2012 5:55 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    I figure it was like the ‘save the delta smelt’ program which denied water to the agricultural heartland of California

    I heard a story that they tried to ban perfume in Marin County because some people found it ‘offensive’.


  62. yenta-fada
    62 | December 22, 2012 5:57 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    “After a 25-year ban, California sea otters are now free to float along the entire coast without being captured and hauled back to Northern California.

    what was the point of that again?

    From the comment section of that post:

    The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ended its “Southern Sea Otter Translocation Program” on Tuesday, Dec. 18, which forbid otters from paddling south of Point Conception

    If they just transgendered the little buggers instead of translocating them, then nobody would have to worry about them reaching the Point of Conception.

    *paging Buzz when Shabbos ends*


  63. heysoos
    64 | December 22, 2012 5:58 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    sometimes I wonder if BO is so naive and out of touch that he does not realize how pissed off people are gonna get soon…
    don’t kid yourself — that’s icing on the cake for him.

    I don’t see where being dead is icing on the cake


  64. 65 | December 22, 2012 6:01 pm

    @ Kirly:
    I’ve been saying that for some time. When Boehner set up the Fiscal Cliff, he gave Obama his wildest dreams for free.


  65. yenta-fada
    66 | December 22, 2012 6:02 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    sometimes I wonder if BO is so naive and out of touch that he does not realize how pissed off people are gonna get soon…
    don’t kid yourself — that’s icing on the cake for him.

    I don’t see where being dead is icing on the cake

    Sociopaths are not easily caught. Especially when they are paranoids with a Secret Service to take a bullet for them. There is a good case to be made about the paranoia of BO. Valerie screens for him. We don’t really know the facts because the Press is so controlled and in the tank.


  66. yenta-fada
    67 | December 22, 2012 6:03 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    Welcome to the Stout Hemp Rope Party…

    I haven’t read that yet. Until I do, I’m assuming you’re just a crazy kid with a dream.


  67. yenta-fada
    68 | December 22, 2012 6:07 pm

    Hobbling over the kitchen. Snark well. :-)


  68. heysoos
    69 | December 22, 2012 6:07 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    heysoos wrote:

    eaglesoars wrote:
    heysoos wrote:
    sometimes I wonder if BO is so naive and out of touch that he does not realize how pissed off people are gonna get soon…
    don’t kid yourself — that’s icing on the cake for him.
    I don’t see where being dead is icing on the cake

    Sociopaths are not easily caught. Especially when they are paranoids with a Secret Service to take a bullet for them. There is a good case to be made about the paranoia of BO. Valerie screens for him. We don’t really know the facts because the Press is so controlled and in the tank.

    I have not seen any evidence that BO is a sociopath or paranoid…that’s got nothing to do with it…the SS might or might not take a bullet for him….they have to know it’s coming first….these are not the old days of shooting the president unawares at a train depot


  69. 70 | December 22, 2012 6:09 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    these are not the old days of shooting the president unawares at a train depot

    God forbid the agent diving in the path of the bullet trip over a blade of grass or something.


  70. Brick
    71 | December 22, 2012 6:11 pm

    Every time an O supporter gets it stuck up inside and broken off, an angel gets his wings.

    Evening, all.


  71. 72 | December 22, 2012 6:12 pm

    Brick wrote:

    Every time an O supporter gets it stuck up inside and broken off, an angel gets his wings.
    Evening, all.

    There are going to an awful lot of Angels getting their wings in the next 4 years then…


  72. brookly red
    73 | December 22, 2012 6:15 pm

    @ heysoos:

    you probably don’t want the kind of attention this kind of comment can bring either personally or to the site as a whole.


  73. Brick
    74 | December 22, 2012 6:15 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    There are going to an awful lot of Angels getting their wings in the next 4 years then…

    The only downside to that is, there will be a lot of Non-O supporters getting the same treatment. :(


  74. heysoos
    75 | December 22, 2012 6:16 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    these are not the old days of shooting the president unawares at a train depot
    God forbid the agent diving in the path of the bullet trip over a blade of grass or something.

    step on a bottle cap or banana peel…shit happens


  75. heysoos
    76 | December 22, 2012 6:18 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    @ heysoos:
    you probably don’t want the kind of attention this kind of comment can bring either personally or to the site as a whole.

    I don’t see where anybody is advocating harming the president


  76. eaglesoars
    77 | December 22, 2012 6:24 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    I don’t see where anybody is advocating harming the president

    Not unless they’re looking for a race/civil war……


  77. coldwarrior
    78 | December 22, 2012 6:24 pm

    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    :lol:


  78. heysoos
    79 | December 22, 2012 6:25 pm

    unions flexing their muscle again, longshoreman this time…something about a contract extension but no details, as usual
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Port-Authority-prepares-for-possible-dockworker-4140812.php


  79. Brick
    80 | December 22, 2012 6:25 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    Why aren’t you answering? I just need a cup of sugar.


  80. brookly red
    81 | December 22, 2012 6:26 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    did you vote the wrong way?


  81. heysoos
    82 | December 22, 2012 6:27 pm

    Brick wrote:

    coldwarrior wrote:
    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    Why aren’t you answering? I just need a cup of sugar.

    “president Obama has sent us to ask you to turn down the Stones music…he does not enjoy Sympathy For The devil”


  82. brookly red
    83 | December 22, 2012 6:30 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    unions flexing their muscle again, longshoreman this time…something about a contract extension but no details, as usual
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Port-Authority-prepares-for-possible-dockworker-4140812.php

    hey, I has an idea… form a taxpayers union… not that would be funny.


  83. coldwarrior
    84 | December 22, 2012 6:30 pm

    Brick wrote:

    coldwarrior wrote:
    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    Why aren’t you answering? I just need a cup of sugar.

    oh? ok!


  84. brookly red
    85 | December 22, 2012 6:31 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    heysoos wrote:

    unions flexing their muscle again, longshoreman this time…something about a contract extension but no details, as usual
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Port-Authority-prepares-for-possible-dockworker-4140812.php

    hey, I has an idea… form a taxpayers union… not that would be funny.

    now that… sheesh


  85. eaglesoars
    86 | December 22, 2012 6:31 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    They’re being polite -- not kicking it in are they? Alright then…….


  86. heysoos
    87 | December 22, 2012 6:31 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    unions flexing their muscle again, longshoreman this time…something about a contract extension but no details, as usual
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Port-Authority-prepares-for-possible-dockworker-4140812.php

    hey, I has an idea… form a taxpayers union… not that would be funny.

    it’s a terrific idea if it could be hammered out…the ultimate opposition….liberals would be stunned


  87. brookly red
    88 | December 22, 2012 6:31 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    oh? ok!

    Land shark!


  88. 89 | December 22, 2012 6:32 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    why are the federalez banging on my door????

    Hey, if you thought you liked the “Stout Hemp Rope Party” before… You really ought to read the blog post I did on it. :twisted:


  89. Bumr50
    90 | December 22, 2012 6:32 pm

    @ yenta-fada:
    @ heysoos:

    Slate seems to be noticing:

    Grotesque Obama eulogy for Sen. Inouye

    ht -- Thomas Lifson @ American Thinker


  90. brookly red
    91 | December 22, 2012 6:35 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    brookly red wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    unions flexing their muscle again, longshoreman this time…something about a contract extension but no details, as usual
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Port-Authority-prepares-for-possible-dockworker-4140812.php

    hey, I has an idea… form a taxpayers union… not that would be funny.

    it’s a terrific idea if it could be hammered out…the ultimate opposition….liberals would be stunned

    we want health premium care, we want jobs, we want our retirement in a lock box, or we strike and stop paying taxes. Simple really…


  91. lobo91
    92 | December 22, 2012 6:36 pm

    Looks like Bloomberg and company plan to make Colorado a test case for new gun laws.

    I do notice that my mayor is not among the idiots who signed this letter.


  92. coldwarrior
    93 | December 22, 2012 6:37 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    coldwarrior wrote:
    oh? ok!
    Land shark!

    :lol:


  93. coldwarrior
    94 | December 22, 2012 6:37 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    i am in negotiations with some amish folks to make some good stout hemp rope for us.


  94. heysoos
    95 | December 22, 2012 6:39 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    brookly red wrote:
    heysoos wrote:
    unions flexing their muscle again, longshoreman this time…something about a contract extension but no details, as usual
    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Port-Authority-prepares-for-possible-dockworker-4140812.php
    hey, I has an idea… form a taxpayers union… not that would be funny.
    it’s a terrific idea if it could be hammered out…the ultimate opposition….liberals would be stunned

    we want health premium care, we want jobs, we want our retirement in a lock box, or we strike and stop paying taxes. Simple really…

    “simplicity is the ultimate sophistication”
    da Vince


  95. heysoos
    96 | December 22, 2012 6:40 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    @ doriangrey:
    i am in negotiations with some amish folks to make some good stout hemp rope for us.

    problem is we don’t even have our own hemp, it has to imported…how ironic


  96. Bumr50
    97 | December 22, 2012 6:41 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    da Vince

    Is he da bounca at da club?

    //;)


  97. brookly red
    98 | December 22, 2012 6:42 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    @ doriangrey:

    i am in negotiations with some amish folks to make some good stout hemp rope for us.

    now if the electrical workers union will let you use their lamp posts your all set…


  98. coldwarrior
    99 | December 22, 2012 6:43 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    problem is we don’t even have our own hemp, it has to imported…how ironic

    yeah, cause lord know someone might smoke 5 pounds of it to get slightly high.


  99. Brick
    100 | December 22, 2012 6:43 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Looks like Bloomberg and company plan to make Colorado a test case for new gun laws.
    I do notice that my mayor is not among the idiots who signed this letter.

    I’m waiting for someone to attempt to tackle Montana’s Firearms Freedom Act. Would be neat for each state to pass a similar act, and then for manufacturers to set up small manufacturing shops in each state. It would effectively negate any attempts for gun controls at the federal level.


  100. coldwarrior
    101 | December 22, 2012 6:44 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    da Vince
    Is he da bounca at da club?
    //;)

    lenny the vince? i know that goomba!


  101. brookly red
    102 | December 22, 2012 6:44 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    heysoos wrote:

    da Vince

    Is he da bounca at da club?

    //;)

    are you making fun of my accent?


  102. brookly red
    103 | December 22, 2012 6:46 pm

    Brick wrote:

    I’m waiting for someone to attempt to tackle Montana’s Firearms Freedom Act. Would be neat for each state to pass a similar act, and then for manufacturers to set up small manufacturing shops in each state. It would effectively negate any attempts for gun controls at the federal level.

    the local high school kids can make a pretty good 38. in shop class. does that count?


  103. coldwarrior
    104 | December 22, 2012 6:50 pm

    @ brookly red:

    manufacture parts all over the us and just have the local gunsmith assemble it for ya.

    would that get around these stupid laws?


  104. brookly red
    105 | December 22, 2012 6:54 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    @ brookly red:

    manufacture parts all over the us and just have the local gunsmith assemble it for ya.

    would that get around these stupid laws?

    no the commerce clause or some such rubbish about crossing state lines, like the greenies say think globally, act locally


  105. coldwarrior
    106 | December 22, 2012 6:56 pm

    @ brookly red:

    kinda like what henry rifles does, they source parts all over the US and then assemble the gun at a central facility and ship it to out.

    in this case the gunsmiths in each state would be the assemblers.


  106. 107 | December 22, 2012 6:59 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    coldwarrior wrote:
    @ brookly red:
    manufacture parts all over the us and just have the local gunsmith assemble it for ya.
    would that get around these stupid laws?

    no the commerce clause or some such rubbish about crossing state lines, like the greenies say think globally, act locally

    You are aware that you may purchase the individual components for a firearm, and of all of the components, that the only component that is legally defined as a firearm is… The upper receiver, right? And that the only time the upper receiver is legally considered a firearm, is when it is complete and able to have a trigger installed in it, right?


  107. coldwarrior
    108 | December 22, 2012 7:00 pm

    THE Lakemba Mosque has issued a fatwa against Christmas, warning followers it is a ”sin” to even wish people a Merry Christmas.

    The religious ruling, which followed a similar lecture during Friday prayers at Australia’s biggest mosque, was posted on its Facebook site on Saturday morning.

    The head imam at Lakemba, Sheikh Yahya Safi, had told the congregation during prayers that they should not take part in anything to do with Christmas.

    Samir Dandan, the president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which oversees the mosque, could not be reached for comment on Saturday.
    Advertisement

    The fatwa, which has sparked widespread community debate and condemnation, warns that the “disbelievers are trying to draw Muslims away from the straight path”.

    It also says that Christmas Day and associated celebrations are among the “falsehoods that a Muslim should avoid … and therefore, a Muslim is neither allowed to celebrate the Christmas Day nor is he allowed to congratulate them”


  108. coldwarrior
    109 | December 22, 2012 7:01 pm

    @ doriangrey:

    if i owned guns i would let my local gunsmith worry about legalities.

    ;)


  109. 110 | December 22, 2012 7:04 pm

    @ coldwarrior:
    Opps, lower receiver, not upper…


  110. brookly red
    111 | December 22, 2012 7:05 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    brookly red wrote:

    coldwarrior wrote:
    @ brookly red:
    manufacture parts all over the us and just have the local gunsmith assemble it for ya.
    would that get around these stupid laws?

    no the commerce clause or some such rubbish about crossing state lines, like the greenies say think globally, act locally

    You are aware that you may purchase the individual components for a firearm, and of all of the components, that the only component that is legally defined as a firearm is… The upper receiver, right? And that the only time the upper receiver is legally considered a firearm, is when it is complete and able to have a trigger installed in it, right?

    I am aware that after all is said and done it’s still a felony in NYC…

    2 guys sitting in a cell:
    what yo do?
    had an upper receiver, you?
    meh, had a 20 oz soda…


  111. Brick
    112 | December 22, 2012 7:07 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    brookly red wrote:
    coldwarrior wrote:
    @ brookly red:
    manufacture parts all over the us and just have the local gunsmith assemble it for ya.
    would that get around these stupid laws?
    no the commerce clause or some such rubbish about crossing state lines, like the greenies say think globally, act locally

    You are aware that you may purchase the individual components for a firearm, and of all of the components, that the only component that is legally defined as a firearm is… The upper receiver, right? And that the only time the upper receiver is legally considered a firearm, is when it is complete and able to have a trigger installed in it, right?

    Lower receiver for the AR platforms is the “gun” part. :)


  112. Mars
    113 | December 22, 2012 7:10 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    THE Lakemba Mosque has issued a fatwa against Christmas, warning followers it is a ”sin” to even wish people a Merry Christmas.
    The religious ruling, which followed a similar lecture during Friday prayers at Australia’s biggest mosque, was posted on its Facebook site on Saturday morning.
    The head imam at Lakemba, Sheikh Yahya Safi, had told the congregation during prayers that they should not take part in anything to do with Christmas.
    Samir Dandan, the president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which oversees the mosque, could not be reached for comment on Saturday.
    Advertisement
    The fatwa, which has sparked widespread community debate and condemnation, warns that the “disbelievers are trying to draw Muslims away from the straight path”.
    It also says that Christmas Day and associated celebrations are among the “falsehoods that a Muslim should avoid … and therefore, a Muslim is neither allowed to celebrate the Christmas Day nor is he allowed to congratulate them”

    You beat me to it. Was just about to post it.


  113. heysoos
    114 | December 22, 2012 7:26 pm

    I have a hard time doing politics on a Saturday night…time to punch out


  114. darkwords
    115 | December 22, 2012 7:31 pm

    @ 112 Mars: So I guess Jesus Christ is not part of the heritage of Islam. I am actually glad we could clear that up Islam


  115. darkwords
    116 | December 22, 2012 7:39 pm

    @ 91 lobo91:
    I’d say the anti gun lobby is trying to magnify and exploit hysteria over the mass shootings.

    Need to be deflated. But the NRA isn’t getting a good enough message out there. Same problem as Romney.
    1. Everything is right with having an armed guard in a kids school.
    2. A gun ban has to be all guns and will never work.
    3. Mental health assistance is the primary target area that could remove the mass shooting by the isane.
    4. Get a national voter ID and include the ability to buy guns on it. You have to opt out.


  116. Mars
    117 | December 22, 2012 7:40 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    @ 112 Mars: So I guess Jesus Christ is not part of the heritage of Islam. I am actually glad we could clear that up Islam

    Yep, they just use that line to sucker the rubes.


  117. Mars
    118 | December 22, 2012 7:43 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    @ 91 lobo91:
    I’d say the anti gun lobby is trying to magnify and exploit hysteria over the mass shootings.
    Need to be deflated. But the NRA isn’t getting a good enough message out there. Same problem as Romney.
    1. Everything is right with having an armed guard in a kids school.
    2. A gun ban has to be all guns and will never work.
    3. Mental health assistance is the primary target area that could remove the mass shooting by the isane.
    4. Get a national voter ID and include the ability to buy guns on it. You have to opt out.

    Not sure what I think of the national ID to get a firearm. I just got gifted a bit of money to get a gun and am trying to figure out how to do it without having federal paperwork. (In the current political climate I just don’t think having the name and address of my gun is a great idea.)


  118. eaglesoars
    119 | December 22, 2012 7:45 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    Get a national voter ID

    That idea -- don’t like

    “do you have you papers?”

    nope- don’t like it


  119. eaglesoars
    120 | December 22, 2012 7:50 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    “do you have you papers?”

    Too close to “haben sie ihre papiere?”

    nope uh huh nope


  120. Mars
    121 | December 22, 2012 7:52 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    eaglesoars wrote:
    “do you have you papers?”
    Too close to “haben sie ihre papiere?”
    nope uh huh nope

    I believe the package arrived. Haven’t had a chance to go pick it up though. Thank you.


  121. eaglesoars
    122 | December 22, 2012 7:56 pm

    Mars wrote:

    I believe the package arrived

    Just checked. Amazingly it did. 11:36 am. At the front door.

    Most welcome


  122. Mars
    123 | December 22, 2012 7:59 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Mars wrote:
    I believe the package arrived
    Just checked. Amazingly it did. 11:36 am. At the front door.
    Most welcome

    Now for the difficult part, lol.


  123. eaglesoars
    124 | December 22, 2012 8:07 pm

    Mars wrote:

    Now for the difficult part, lol.

    lobo91 knows people in the business -- he might know someone in your neck of the woods………..


  124. Mars
    125 | December 22, 2012 8:09 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Mars wrote:
    Now for the difficult part, lol.
    lobo91 knows people in the business — he might know someone in your neck of the woods………..

    Yeah, been thinking about that.


  125. brookly red
    126 | December 22, 2012 8:12 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    @ 91 lobo91:
    I’d say the anti gun lobby is trying to magnify and exploit hysteria over the mass shootings.

    Need to be deflated. But the NRA isn’t getting a good enough message out there. Same problem as Romney.
    1. Everything is right with having an armed guard in a kids school.
    2. A gun ban has to be all guns and will never work.
    3. Mental health assistance is the primary target area that could remove the mass shooting by the isane.
    4. Get a national voter ID and include the ability to buy guns on it. You have to opt out.

    OK, not that I think you are wrong but if the left doesn’t want ID to vote they are not going go for it. Now about wasting a crisis: They want gun control? OK I want immigration control. They want to number the amount of guns you can buy/own, I want to number the months/years you can be on welfare. If you gotta register and have a background check to buy a gun, OK same to vote… we can make this hell for them, the dirtiest word in the liberal language is compromise.


  126. Brick
    127 | December 22, 2012 8:14 pm

    Mars wrote:

    darkwords wrote:
    @ 91 lobo91:
    I’d say the anti gun lobby is trying to magnify and exploit hysteria over the mass shootings.
    Need to be deflated. But the NRA isn’t getting a good enough message out there. Same problem as Romney.
    1. Everything is right with having an armed guard in a kids school.
    2. A gun ban has to be all guns and will never work.
    3. Mental health assistance is the primary target area that could remove the mass shooting by the isane.
    4. Get a national voter ID and include the ability to buy guns on it. You have to opt out.

    Not sure what I think of the national ID to get a firearm. I just got gifted a bit of money to get a gun and am trying to figure out how to do it without having federal paperwork. (In the current political climate I just don’t think having the name and address of my gun is a great idea.)

    Private sale, long arm.


  127. lobo91
    128 | December 22, 2012 8:14 pm

    Mars wrote:

    eaglesoars wrote:
    Mars wrote:
    Now for the difficult part, lol.
    lobo91 knows people in the business — he might know someone in your neck of the woods………..
    Yeah, been thinking about that.

    I don’t know anyone who would be willing to sell anything without a background check, if that’s what you’re trying to avoid. I do know some dealers in this part of the country, though.

    You’d have to buy something directly from an individual to skip the check.


  128. Mars
    129 | December 22, 2012 8:20 pm

    @ Brick:
    @ lobo91:

    Yeah I know that. I’ve been perusing the newspaper, thrifty nickel, and bulletin boards. But, there isn’t anything turning up.

    Originally I wanted a Mosin Nagant mainly because it was what I came close to affording a few years back. But, now I’m thinking a rifle isn’t as effective a home defense weapon as a pistol.

    I have more familiarity with rifles due to my time in service, but with the pistol I can go to the local indoor range to practice.

    Just trying to weigh the pluses and minuses, then have to find something.

    I really, really don’t want to screw up here.


  129. eaglesoars
    130 | December 22, 2012 8:21 pm

    “Considerable liberties” with the facts were taken in the film Zero Dark Thirty, according to a letter sent out to CIA employees from acting DCI Michael Morrell.

    In other news, water is wet:

    Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it the CIA that gave these people access to classified material to make the damn movie?


  130. lobo91
    131 | December 22, 2012 8:24 pm

    @ Mars:

    Rifles generally aren’t a good choice for home defense, no. And especially something like that. 7.62x54r is a serious round that will go right through someone at close range, along with the wall behind them. And most of the ammo that’s available today is steel core (basically armor piercing) which isn’t allowed at a lot of ranges.

    Pistols and shotguns are better choices, usually.


  131. Mars
    132 | December 22, 2012 8:27 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Mars:
    Rifles generally aren’t a good choice for home defense, no. And especially something like that. 7.62x54r is a serious round that will go right through someone at close range, along with the wall behind them. And most of the ammo that’s available today is steel core (basically armor piercing) which isn’t allowed at a lot of ranges.
    Pistols and shotguns are better choices, usually.

    That’s what I’m thinking. Plus not only is it a powerful round the rifle is an awful long one to try and aim around corners, lol.


  132. lobo91
    133 | December 22, 2012 8:29 pm

    @ Mars:

    That’s what I’m thinking. Plus not only is it a powerful round the rifle is an awful long one to try and aim around corners, lol.

    Even the M44 “carbine” is still a damn big rifle. They’re heavy, too.

    Now, if you ever decide that you need a decent fairly long-range bolt action rifle at a low price, they are actually a pretty good bargain. But not for indoor use.


  133. lobo91
    134 | December 22, 2012 8:30 pm

    @ Mars:

    You might look for a used Mossberg 500. They’re pretty reasonable.


  134. Mars
    135 | December 22, 2012 8:35 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Mars:
    That’s what I’m thinking. Plus not only is it a powerful round the rifle is an awful long one to try and aim around corners, lol.
    Even the M44 “carbine” is still a damn big rifle. They’re heavy, too.
    Now, if you ever decide that you need a decent fairly long-range bolt action rifle at a low price, they are actually a pretty good bargain. But not for indoor use.

    It looks like the handguns in my range are hi-tec’s, kel tec, and and one S&w.

    Of course there’s this, lol. (Sticking with the Nagant and overpowering round line of thought.)
    http://www.jgsales.com/russian-1895-nagant-revolver,-in-7.62-nagant-caliber,-with-holster.-p-1059.html


  135. Mars
    136 | December 22, 2012 8:36 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Mars:
    You might look for a used Mossberg 500. They’re pretty reasonable.

    I’m just not a shotgun guy.


  136. eaglesoars
    137 | December 22, 2012 8:37 pm

    This is the best piece on gun control you will ever read. He owned a gun store and was/is a professional instructor.

    and here is his opinion on carbine-shotgun-handgun for home defense.


  137. Mars
    138 | December 22, 2012 8:37 pm

    Mars wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:
    @ Mars:
    That’s what I’m thinking. Plus not only is it a powerful round the rifle is an awful long one to try and aim around corners, lol.
    Even the M44 “carbine” is still a damn big rifle. They’re heavy, too.
    Now, if you ever decide that you need a decent fairly long-range bolt action rifle at a low price, they are actually a pretty good bargain. But not for indoor use.

    It looks like the handguns in my range are hi-tec’s hi-point, kel tec, and and one S&w.
    Of course there’s this, lol. (Sticking with the Nagant and overpowering round line of thought.)
    http://www.jgsales.com/russian-1895-nagant-revolver,-in-7.62-nagant-caliber,-with-holster.-p-1059.html


  138. Mars
    139 | December 22, 2012 8:38 pm

    @ Mars:
    Damnit. Twice typoed. Hi-point.


  139. lobo91
    140 | December 22, 2012 8:39 pm

    @ Mars:

    Kel-Tec is a solid gun. I deal with their products frequently. Never seen a problem with one.

    I own one of their carbines.


  140. lobo91
    141 | December 22, 2012 8:41 pm

    Mars wrote:

    @ Mars:
    Damnit. Twice typoed. Hi-point.

    DO NOT buy a Hi-point.

    It’s a POS. Mostly useful if you want a gun to kill someone with and then throw in the lake without losing any sleep over its loss.


  141. Brick
    142 | December 22, 2012 8:42 pm

    Mars wrote:

    @ Brick:
    @ lobo91:
    Yeah I know that. I’ve been perusing the newspaper, thrifty nickel, and bulletin boards. But, there isn’t anything turning up.
    Originally I wanted a Mosin Nagant mainly because it was what I came close to affording a few years back. But, now I’m thinking a rifle isn’t as effective a home defense weapon as a pistol.
    I have more familiarity with rifles due to my time in service, but with the pistol I can go to the local indoor range to practice.
    Just trying to weigh the pluses and minuses, then have to find something.
    I really, really don’t want to screw up here.

    I agree with Lobo’s recommendation. If you can only have one…it’s hard to go wrong with a Mossberg 500. The only other caveats I’d add is get one with the full wood stock and NO birdshot!

    If you’re more comfortable with long arms -- you could consider a small carbine -- but you’d be giving up a tremendous amount of stopping power vs. a 12 gauge.


  142. Brick
    143 | December 22, 2012 8:48 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Mars wrote:
    @ Mars:
    Damnit. Twice typoed. Hi-point.
    DO NOT buy a Hi-point.
    It’s a POS. Mostly useful if you want a gun to kill someone with and then throw in the lake without losing any sleep over its loss.

    I’d wager a substantial number of people killed with Hi-Points were bludgeoned to death with them.


  143. Mars
    144 | December 22, 2012 8:49 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Mars wrote:
    @ Mars:
    Damnit. Twice typoed. Hi-point.
    DO NOT buy a Hi-point.
    It’s a POS. Mostly useful if you want a gun to kill someone with and then throw in the lake without losing any sleep over its loss.

    That’s what I’ve been gathering from my research.

    eaglesoars wrote:

    This is the best piece on gun control you will ever read. He owned a gun store and was/is a professional instructor.
    and here is his opinion on carbine-shotgun-handgun for home defense.

    Both excellent reads. I agree with a lot of what is being said in there about carbine-shotgun-pistol.


  144. lobo91
    145 | December 22, 2012 8:55 pm

    @ Brick:

    I’d wager a substantial number of people killed with Hi-Points were bludgeoned to death with them.

    Or when it blew up in their face.


  145. Brick
    146 | December 22, 2012 8:58 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Brick:
    I’d wager a substantial number of people killed with Hi-Points were bludgeoned to death with them.
    Or when it blew up in their face.

    +1


  146. lobo91
    147 | December 22, 2012 9:00 pm

    @ Brick:

    I saw a Hi-Point in .45 ACP at the gun show the other day. $169. Brand new.

    I’d sooner throw it at someone than actually pull the trigger.


  147. lobo91
    148 | December 22, 2012 9:04 pm

    Hi-Point .45 ACP


  148. Mars
    149 | December 22, 2012 9:07 pm

    I think what blows my mind is all of the guns that were in the 80-150 dollar range between 2005 and 2009, now the exact same guns are in the 200-350 range.


  149. lobo91
    150 | December 22, 2012 9:10 pm

    Mars wrote:

    I think what blows my mind is all of the guns that were in the 80-150 dollar range between 2005 and 2009, now the exact same guns are in the 200-350 range.

    I was just looking at Kel-Tecs on Gunbroker.com. I can’t believe what people are willing to pay for a Sub-2000 carbine. Some of them are over $1,000.

    Mine was about $300.


  150. lobo91
    151 | December 22, 2012 9:12 pm

    Kel-Tec PF9.

    That’s a decent gun.


  151. Mars
    152 | December 22, 2012 9:13 pm

    @ lobo91:
    No joke. Plus I think the recent run on guns has caused an even bigger jump in price. Supply and demand and all. A LOT of people are looking for a nice budget gun right now.


  152. Brick
    153 | December 22, 2012 9:18 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Mars wrote:
    I think what blows my mind is all of the guns that were in the 80-150 dollar range between 2005 and 2009, now the exact same guns are in the 200-350 range.
    I was just looking at Kel-Tecs on Gunbroker.com. I can’t believe what people are willing to pay for a Sub-2000 carbine. Some of them are over $1,000.
    Mine was about $300.

    The identical Bushmaster ORC purchased 2 weeks ago for $700 NIB, is now going for almost DOUBLE. Now isn’t really the optimal time to be buying.


  153. lobo91
    154 | December 22, 2012 9:19 pm

    I’m going to look for ammo while I’m in NM. It looks like locusts hit my local WalMart here.


  154. lobo91
    155 | December 22, 2012 9:20 pm

    @ Brick:

    That’s for sure. 2 weeks ago you could get a Sub-2000 for under $400.


  155. Calo
    156 | December 22, 2012 9:25 pm

    @ lobo91:
    Meh, it’s December, a few days before Christmas and guns are in demand, hence the higher prices.

    Mars, wait until the end of January when sales are slower.


  156. Brick
    157 | December 22, 2012 9:25 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Brick:
    That’s for sure. 2 weeks ago you could get a Sub-2000 for under $400.

    Too many bitter clingers and all that.


  157. Brick
    158 | December 22, 2012 9:26 pm

    Calo wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Meh, it’s December, a few days before Christmas and guns are in demand, hence the higher prices.
    Mars, wait until the end of January when sales are slower.

    It’s all the pending ban talk that’s fueling the current price spike.


  158. eaglesoars
    159 | December 22, 2012 9:29 pm

    BWAHAHAHA!!!

    NYT calls for limitING high capaacity AMMUNITION

    h/t instapundit


  159. lobo91
    160 | December 22, 2012 9:30 pm

    Brick wrote:

    Calo wrote:
    @ lobo91:
    Meh, it’s December, a few days before Christmas and guns are in demand, hence the higher prices.
    Mars, wait until the end of January when sales are slower.
    It’s all the pending ban talk that’s fueling the current price spike.

    Yes, it is.


  160. lobo91
    161 | December 22, 2012 9:32 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    BWAHAHAHA!!!
    NYT calls for limitING high capaacity AMMUNITION
    h/t instapundit

    Maybe we could ban high capacity journalists…if there are any.


  161. Calo
    162 | December 22, 2012 9:33 pm

    @ lobo91:
    Do you know how many people shop Xmas on CC’s?

    Those bills will roll out in consumer’s mailboxes in January, and will make people think twice about spending money on anything other than the basics.

    Just my opinion, shoot me.


  162. 163 | December 22, 2012 9:35 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    I saw a Hi-Point in .45 ACP at the gun show the other day. $169. Brand new.

    I’d sooner throw it at someone than actually pull the trigger.

    Was that was thrown at Superman all the time? :)


  163. 164 | December 23, 2012 2:27 am

    The thread is dead, but I’ll add a point or two anyway, just in case Mars looks back in.

    I see that A -- money is tight, and that B -- you’d like to avoid even a background check. my suggestion? Buy a used revolver from an individual. Revolvers are “old fashioned” and everybody wants a pistol of some sort these days, so revolvers don’t bring premium prices (some excepted.) Lots and lots of police service-style revolvers out there with a lot of life left in them. Usually with a 4″ barrel, in steel or stainless steel. S&W and Ruger are two top brands. I’d recommend a .357 magnum. That’s a kick-ass round, but the weapon will also fire .38 Special +P or regular .38 Special if you want less recoil/cheaper ammo. Yes, they only hold 6 (or 5) rounds and they’re slower to reload, but they are just as deadly as any pistol. They are also simplicity itself when it comes to operation.

    Note that I’m talking double action revolvers here, not western-style single actions.

    A decent revolver in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it is a fearsome weapon, and they have killed a hell of a lot of people. There’s huge numbers of them out there due to the fact that virtually every police department in the country used to use them, and a lot of them have not much more than handling and holster wear.


  164. 165 | December 23, 2012 8:47 am

    heysoos wrote:

    brookly red wrote:
    @ heysoos:
    you probably don’t want the kind of attention this kind of comment can bring either personally or to the site as a whole.

    I don’t see where anybody is advocating harming the president

    PREDICTING is not advocating.

    Predicting is covered by the First Amendment.

    If we don’t exercise our rights, we’ll use them for sure.

    heysoos wrote:

    Brick wrote:
    coldwarrior wrote:
    why are the federalez banging on my door????
    Why aren’t you answering? I just need a cup of sugar.

    “president Obama has sent us to ask you to turn down the Stones music…he does not enjoy Sympathy For The devil”

    LOL…


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