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The War Against Pizza Continues

by coldwarrior ( 128 Comments › )
Filed under Uncategorized at January 6th, 2013 - 7:00 pm

 

As we have seen in NYC, Bloomberg had the iconic John’s Pizza in NYC shut down

How a Federal Menu-Labeling Law Will Harm American Pizza

This week, as a new Congress was being sworn in, the Food and Drug Administration released two sets of controversial and long-delayed food-safety rules.

Another FDA rule that’s been long in the making is the agency’s proposed menu-labeling rule.

The purpose of that rule, first proposed in 2010 as part of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, is to “provid[e] information to assist consumers in maintaining healthy dietary practices.”

In 2008, California became the first state in the nation to adopt a uniform menu-labeling law. The law had the backing of the state’s restaurant association—a surprising turn of events until one considers that chain restaurants in the state had been forced to deal with an increasing number of varying menu-labeling rules in municipalities throughout the state. With more and more states adopting their own menu-labeling rules, the National Restaurant Association adopted the California strategy and sought a shield against this death by 1,000 cuts by pushing for one uniform national menu-labeling rule. (I detailed this chronology in a 2010 Chapman University Law Review article, The “California Effect” and the Future of American Food: How California’s Growing Crackdown on Food & Agriculture Harms the State & the Nation.)

The delay in implementing the FDA’s menu-labeling rule appears to have resulted, to the consternation of many in the food industry, in an expansion of Congress’ original intent. As it’s now constructed, the rule would apply not just to chain restaurants like McDonald’s and Applebee’s but also to grocery stores and chain pizza restaurants—both of which oppose the FDA’s plans.

Nancy Huehnergarth, executive director of the New York State Healthy Eating and Physical Activity Alliance, tells me she supports the proposed FDA rule because it would provide information at the right place and time.

“The key to menu labeling and getting it to work is that people see the calories at the point of purchase,” says Huehnergarth.

Pizza chains, which have banded together to oppose the FDA’s plans to have the rules cover them, have good reasons to chafe at being included under the law.

For one, most have been providing nutrition information for years. The Papa John’s website displays nutrition information under each menu item, for example, while Domino’s website features a tool it calls a Cal-o-Meter. For pizza, the point of purchase is most often online or over the phone.

In an op-ed published last year in The Hill, the CEO of Domino’s, J. Patrick Doyle, criticized the proposed rule as “a one-size-fits-all set of rules for menu labeling that will result in wide calorie ranges for entire pizzas on menus consumers will not even see, but will cost small business owners thousands of dollars a year.”

Those costs can range upwards of $5,000 per franchise location. The cost to grocers—a cost that, as with pizza, would no doubt be passed on to consumers in the form of higher food costs—would be even greater.

Why so costly?

“With 34 million ways to make a pizza, it makes no common sense to require this industry—which already discloses calories voluntarily, for the most part—to attempt to cram this information on menu boards in small storefronts,” says Lynn Liddle, who chairs the American Pizza Community, a coalition representing much of the American pizza industry, in an email to me.

To put that number of pizza choices in perspective, consider that nearly every single person living in Canada today could order an entirely different pizza from Domino’s—where the chain is also popular.

Opposition—from those like me who say the proposed rules go too far and those who argue they don’t go far enough—has slowed the FDA as the agency has sought to craft a final rule.

Some in the latter camp seem certain that others should simply divine a way to comply with the FDA’s proposed rules.

“I think pizza places should label calories—really, they can figure out how to do it,” New York University professor of public health Marion Nestle wrote at her Food Politics blog over the summer.

One way pizza chains might do so is to post a calorie range for all menu items. But pizza makers argue that such a range would be too broad and, anyways, 90 percent of their customers order their food online or over the phone—making in-store posting not just costly but also irrelevant and unhelpful to consumers.

Nestle says she doesn’t buy that argument.

“The idea that the range of calories is so great as to be meaningless I don’t think holds any kind of water—or mozzarella cheese—at all because it at least gives you a ballpark figure,” she told CBS This Morning in June.

But that’s a startling and confusing reversal for Nestle, who was highly critical of the FDA permitting those same menu calorie ranges in an April post at her Food Politics blog.

“I noticed other key omissions in the FDA’s proposed rules,” Nestle wrote then. “For one thing, they allow impossibly large ranges such as the 200-to-800 calories that Chipotle posts, for example.”

Just to recap Nestle’s argument: Pizza chains can figure out how to label menu items. Large calorie ranges are a reasonable way to label menu items. The FDA should not permit large calorie ranges as part of menu item labeling.

Given Nestle’s conflicting arguments and—more important—the potential cost and logical impossibility of displaying millions of possible calorie counts on a menu board, it’s no wonder that the American Pizza Community and grocers are seeking reasonable accommodations.

“What does make common sense is to put the information online or in handheld menus, where it’s useful to consumers and affordable for small business pizza shop owners,” Liddle tells me. “We’re just asking for a reasonable approach to calorie disclosure. You wouldn’t think that would be so hard.”

I don’t support coerced menu labeling generally because it limits culinary innovation and doesn’t appear to achieve its stated goal of reducing calorie intake.

For pizza chains—the bulk of which serve customers who purchase online or over the phone and who may (like me) never order a pizza from inside a Domino’s or a Papa John’s, permitting calorie counts to be posted online and via smartphone and tablet apps makes sense. In the case of grocery stores, it’s clear Congress never intended the FDA’s restaurant menu labeling law to apply to them.

A bill introduced last year by Rep. John Carter (R-Texas), the Common Sense Nutrition Disclosure Act of 2012, would have exempted pizza chains and grocers from being forced to comply with the new rules.

Time ran out on the bill with the seating this week of the new Congress. But supporters of the bill are optimistic it will be reintroduced and pass soon in the new Congress. I, for one, hope Congress orders up this slice of wisdom.

 

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128 Responses to “The War Against Pizza Continues”
( jump to bottom )

  1. Bumr50
    1 | January 6, 2013 7:18 pm

    Bootleg pizza.


  2. lobo91
    2 | January 6, 2013 7:25 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    Bootleg pizza.

    When pizzas are outlawed, only outlaws will have pizza.


  3. 3 | January 6, 2013 7:29 pm

    But can you still buy the unfinished parts and assemble the Pizza’s at home legally? :shock: :twisted:


  4. Mars
    4 | January 6, 2013 7:32 pm

    I love how that witch Nestle is a perfect example of a nanny state lib. Almost a parody.

    I think they should have broad ranges, but I don’t think they should be allowed to use broad ranges.

    Perfect lib logic.


  5. song_and_dance_man
    5 | January 6, 2013 7:40 pm

    The Feds, or more distinctly, the New Left should consider putting warning labels on almost every street, since they are paved with asphalt. We all know that deadly stuff is made from oil based product and leeches into the ground and probably into (gasp) our water.

    Stop Big Oil Streets Now


  6. The Osprey
    6 | January 6, 2013 7:45 pm

    We need to get these high powered assault pizzas with 30 round pepperoni magazines
    off the streets.


  7. song_and_dance_man
    7 | January 6, 2013 7:47 pm

    F Domino’s. If you want a good pizza one must find a small sorta mom and pop shop. It is the only way.

    For instance. There is a pizza place here (one off) that makes the best pesto pizza one can find in this neck of the weeds.


  8. song_and_dance_man
    8 | January 6, 2013 7:48 pm

    The Osprey wrote:

    We need to get these high powered assault pizzas with 30 round pepperoni magazines
    off the streets.

    I hear that. I mean, who needs a sausage cannon or anchovy launcher.


  9. song_and_dance_man
    9 | January 6, 2013 7:51 pm

    @ The Osprey:
    BTW. I live near Kirkland AFB and have recently seen a few Ospreys flying about. Hovering and flying slow. Those ships are awesome to see in the air.


  10. song_and_dance_man
    10 | January 6, 2013 7:53 pm

    doriangrey wrote:

    But can you still buy the unfinished parts and assemble the Pizza’s at home legally?

    In the coming years you just might have to register your pepperoni.


  11. coldwarrior
    11 | January 6, 2013 8:00 pm

    these libs hate Italians!!!!

    raaaaacists!


  12. taxfreekiller
    12 | January 6, 2013 8:01 pm

    Any one notice B. Obama is a card carrying commie.


  13. song_and_dance_man
    13 | January 6, 2013 8:03 pm

    coldwarrior wrote:

    these libs hate Italians!!!!
    raaaaacists!

    It worse than that. Two words. Hermain Cain.


  14. taxfreekiller
    14 | January 6, 2013 8:04 pm

    U.S. Senator Ted Cruz, Republican Texas knows and will call out B. Obama with no fear.

    Obama will use the msm to defend his commie ways and call Ted a racist and a Tea Party nut case.

    Will not work, Ted has his number.


  15. song_and_dance_man
    15 | January 6, 2013 8:05 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Any one notice B. Obama is a card carrying commie.

    Heck, He’s running the printing press.


  16. taxfreekiller
    16 | January 6, 2013 8:06 pm

    The Repuclican Speaker of the House shows darker in TV that Obama.

    Neat filter the White House camera has.


  17. 17 | January 6, 2013 8:06 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    U.S. Senator Ted Cruz, Republican Texas knows and will call out B. Obama with no fear.
    Obama will use the msm to defend his commie ways and call Ted a racist and a Tea Party nut case.
    Will not work, Ted has his number.

    Ted has already rattled some cages in the US Senate.


  18. 18 | January 6, 2013 8:07 pm

    The Osprey wrote:

    We need to get these high powered assault pizzas with 30 round pepperoni magazines
    off the streets.

    Between the dangerous Pizza slices and the Gyro Nazis, America is in danger!
    /////


  19. taxfreekiller
    19 | January 6, 2013 8:07 pm

    The Texas Big Bend area needs a U.S. Marine RECON F.O.B. asap.
    Dam danger zone down on the Rio.


  20. 20 | January 6, 2013 8:08 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    F Domino’s. If you want a good pizza one must find a small sorta mom and pop shop. It is the only way.
    For instance. There is a pizza place here (one off) that makes the best pesto pizza one can find in this neck of the weeds.

    Those are the best!


  21. 21 | January 6, 2013 8:09 pm

    @ Mars:

    Mike Bloomberg is a Fascist.


  22. taxfreekiller
    22 | January 6, 2013 8:09 pm

    Commie Democrats gonna scare their own pants off with all this scare shit.


  23. taxfreekiller
    23 | January 6, 2013 8:10 pm

    Bloomberzerk will be a Fascist as long as he has money to spend.

    With out that he is just another silly loud mouth short problem person.


  24. 24 | January 6, 2013 8:11 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Commie Democrats gonna scare their own pants off with all this scare shit.

    They are treasonous scum.


  25. taxfreekiller
    25 | January 6, 2013 8:11 pm

    Dollar loud and Dollar proud.


  26. taxfreekiller
    26 | January 6, 2013 8:12 pm

    Selfdestructive treasonous scum.


  27. taxfreekiller
    28 | January 6, 2013 8:14 pm

    Like Ted Cruz said today, the intrest payments due on the debt is just 6 to 8 % of the monthly tax take.

    It is bull shit the U.S. can not make debt payments.

    Obama is crock full of shit.


  28. song_and_dance_man
    29 | January 6, 2013 8:14 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Commie Democrats gonna scare their own pants off with all this scare shit.

    And it will come back to bit them in the ass. Not the purveyors, but rather the asshat constituents.


  29. song_and_dance_man
    30 | January 6, 2013 8:16 pm

    And they deserve it; but we don’t


  30. 31 | January 6, 2013 8:16 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Like Ted Cruz said today, the intrest payments due on the debt is just 6 to 8 % of the monthly tax take.
    It is bull shit the U.S. can not make debt payments.
    Obama is crock full of shit.

    I agree. But weeping Boehner will not call Obama’s bluff. As soon as the cheap money welfare leaches on Wall Street start bitching, the GOP will back down and the god-king will win another one.


  31. taxfreekiller
    32 | January 6, 2013 8:16 pm

    Commie Democrats are scareing the shit out of 80 year old women on SS , sorry ass bunch of scum sucking pigs.


  32. taxfreekiller
    33 | January 6, 2013 8:19 pm

    Odd that Chris Wallace passed off the Ted Cruz interview.

    Methinks he knows he can not snake talk to Ted and get away with it.


  33. song_and_dance_man
    34 | January 6, 2013 8:19 pm

    Anybody else gonna jump in?


  34. 35 | January 6, 2013 8:21 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Odd that Chris Wallace passed off the Ted Cruz interview.
    Methinks he knows he can not snake talk to Ted and get away with it.

    Yup!


  35. song_and_dance_man
    36 | January 6, 2013 8:21 pm

    We’ve gone from TWOT to TOWP.


  36. taxfreekiller
    37 | January 6, 2013 8:22 pm

    I have talked with Ted couple of times, one or two of the heavy stuff, you can see him prepareing his response as you speak to him, as soon as you stop, he is responding and you can tell he is waltzing you to his way with his answer. He is one smart cookie thinking on his feet.


  37. lobo91
    38 | January 6, 2013 8:22 pm

    taxfreekiller wrote:

    Odd that Chris Wallace passed off the Ted Cruz interview.

    Methinks he knows he can not snake talk to Ted and get away with it.

    That interview is from today’s Fox News Sunday.

    Wallace wasn’t there at all today for some reason.


  38. 39 | January 6, 2013 8:24 pm

    @ lobo91:

    From what I’m reading you were right. It looks like Obama is going to use Executive Orders for Gun Control.


  39. taxfreekiller
    40 | January 6, 2013 8:26 pm

    The commie Democrats will call Ted names and say he is a “constitutional nut case”, all about that he supports those old crazy white men who owned slaves and all that commie clap trap bull shit.


  40. taxfreekiller
    41 | January 6, 2013 8:27 pm

    Obama can take his unconstitutional executive orders and slide them up where the sun don’t shine.


  41. taxfreekiller
    42 | January 6, 2013 8:31 pm

    That is what I am saying, he runs the deal he could have had Ted later himself, methinks the little snake in the grass commie knows he can not snide his way past Ted.

    Chris Wallace and Bill O’riley are vipers who slip snake talk into the deal and hide inside our camp as spys or worse.@ lobo91:


  42. taxfreekiller
    44 | January 6, 2013 8:37 pm

    Obama is in a selfinduced fog of misinformation.

    He belives his own mad lies. Clear and Present danger to himself and all of U.S..


  43. lobo91
    45 | January 6, 2013 8:43 pm

    @ taxfreekiller:

    Obama believes whatever his teleprompter tells him.


  44. 46 | January 6, 2013 8:51 pm

    @ lobo91:

    What ever his puppet masters (Soros/Valerie Jarret) tell him, he repeats.


  45. RIX
    47 | January 6, 2013 9:04 pm

    It is amazing how far we have sunk in just four years.
    Everything that you learned in Civics & Poly Sci about the separation
    of powers & Constitutional rule of law, forget it.
    There is a totalitarian in the White House with an abetting media.


  46. 48 | January 6, 2013 9:09 pm

    @ RIX:

    There is a totalitarian in the White House with an abetting media.

    This is a defacto dictatorship!


  47. RIX
    49 | January 6, 2013 9:15 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    @ RIX:

    There is a totalitarian in the White House with an abetting media.

    This is a defacto dictatorship!

    We’re getting there & a lot of people want it.


  48. 50 | January 6, 2013 9:17 pm

    @ RIX:

    Obama is almost a deity.


  49. The Osprey
    51 | January 6, 2013 9:20 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    @ The Osprey:
    BTW. I live near Kirkland AFB and have recently seen a few Ospreys flying about. Hovering and flying slow. Those ships are awesome to see in the air.

    Kirkland was the first place I saw one flying.
    I was in ABQ on a business trip and I heard an unusual aircraft noise I couldn’t place and I pulled over and parked and got out and saw one just as it was transitioning from VTOL mode to level flight.

    The helicopter squadrons my dad flew with at MCAS New River NC back in the 60′s have all transitioned to it now.


  50. RIX
    52 | January 6, 2013 9:21 pm

    Rodan wrote:

    @ RIX:

    Obama is almost a deity.

    Just ask Jamie Foxx.It’s lunacy!


  51. 53 | January 6, 2013 9:31 pm

    @ RIX:

    You see it daily at LGF.


  52. RIX
    54 | January 6, 2013 9:32 pm

    @ Rodan:
    It is impossible to underestimate Johnson & the kiddies over there.


  53. darkwords
    55 | January 6, 2013 9:33 pm

    @ 42 taxfreekiller: If American Indian reservations militarize a little more they might be the ones that save the country. Or pick up the pieces after the second civil war;


  54. darkwords
    56 | January 6, 2013 9:34 pm

    @ 54 RIX:Those are fat cells doing the thinking over there not brain cells. Big difference.


  55. RIX
    57 | January 6, 2013 9:38 pm

    @ darkwords:
    True, Johnson is not smart and gives immaturity a bad name,


  56. RIX
    58 | January 6, 2013 9:39 pm

    Good night all.


  57. song_and_dance_man
    59 | January 6, 2013 9:45 pm

    The Osprey wrote:

    The helicopter squadrons my dad flew with at MCAS New River NC back in the 60′s have all transitioned to it now.

    They are big. Are they the new air transport carriers?

    I’ve seen a few cool flying things. Harriers, Cobras back in the day and the SR71, but the things I’ve seen, or rather not really seen, flying in and out of Kirkland must be new things.


  58. The Osprey
    60 | January 6, 2013 9:48 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    The Osprey wrote:

    The helicopter squadrons my dad flew with at MCAS New River NC back in the 60′s have all transitioned to it now.

    They are big. Are they the new air transport carriers?

    I’ve seen a few cool flying things. Harriers, Cobras back in the day and the SR71, but the things I’ve seen, or rather not really seen, flying in and out of Kirkland must be new things.

    They replaced the old CH46 which was the USMC’s medium lift copter.
    The CH53 “Jolly Green Giant” is bigger.


  59. song_and_dance_man
    61 | January 6, 2013 9:50 pm

    I guess all us Lonestars are in deep Bantha poodpo


  60. lobo91
    62 | January 6, 2013 9:50 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    The Marines use their Ospreys for long-range assault transport. They can fly a lot faster and farther than any helicopter.

    The Air Force uses theirs for special ops missions.


  61. song_and_dance_man
    63 | January 6, 2013 9:55 pm

    @ lobo91:

    The freakin props are huge. I saw one transitioning from a sorta hover mode to flying off.


  62. lobo91
    64 | January 6, 2013 10:00 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    @ lobo91:

    The freakin props are huge. I saw one transitioning from a sorta hover mode to flying off.

    You should watch one go into its “compact storage” mode after landing. It looks like something out of a Transformers movie.


  63. song_and_dance_man
    65 | January 6, 2013 10:15 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    You should watch one go into its “compact storage” mode after landing. It looks like something out of a Transformers movie.

    That is something I’d like to see. I guess they have been engineered so for carriers.

    Have you seen this? It’s peripheral to what we’ve talking about, but interesting. Ignore that it’s an LA Times vid.


  64. lobo91
    66 | January 6, 2013 10:17 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    Here’s a picture of it when it’s done.


  65. song_and_dance_man
    67 | January 6, 2013 10:29 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Looking at the machine from that pic it’s obvious the bird must fly up before it can fly out. And vice versa to land.


  66. lobo91
    68 | January 6, 2013 10:35 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    @ lobo91:

    Looking at the machine from that pic it’s obvious the bird must fly up before it can fly out. And vice versa to land.

    Yeah, it’s strictly vertical takeoff and landing, because the rotors are too big to allow it to land or take off like a plane.

    Actually, it does have the ability to make a sort of in-between takeoff, where the engines are tilted 45 degrees and it makes a short takeoff run along the ground. I think it uses less fuel that way.


  67. song_and_dance_man
    69 | January 6, 2013 10:45 pm

    “With 34 million ways to make a pizza, it makes no common sense to require this industry—which already discloses calories voluntarily, for the most part—to attempt to cram this information on menu boards in small storefronts,”

    Nest we will be reading or hearing ads like drug companies have to now disclaim.

    Yada-yada about Papa Guidos Pizza. You can have Pepperoni on your Pizza.

    Voice over.

    Ask you doctor if pepperoni is right for you. Some consumption of pepperoni has been known to cause smiles and more partying, thickening of your unbeknownst Italian roots, and an erection that may last more than 20 minutes. If you are allergic to Doctors, forget calling and seek a glass of milk.

    Pepperoni has been know to cause heart attacks


  68. lobo91
    70 | January 6, 2013 10:53 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    My favorite disclaimers are the ones that include death as a possible side effect.


  69. song_and_dance_man
    71 | January 6, 2013 10:55 pm

    I work at a jail. And due to certain circumstances the inmates were moved around. What I found disturbingly ironic is the sex offenders are now housed in what we call B, or as we have always called it in alpha code, Boy Pod.


  70. song_and_dance_man
    72 | January 6, 2013 11:07 pm

    @ lobo91:

    When I hear those ads I think for others. Why in the world would you EVER want to try this dangerous drug? I want my tongue to remain the same size as it is now.

    It seems like the ailment the drug is targeted for is far less harmful than the side effects the touted drug offers.

    Yeah I want to quit smoking, so let me take something that will enlarge my tank, reduce my trunk, but still give me space to die.


  71. 73 | January 6, 2013 11:09 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    Always wanted to see the Blackbird. Damn, what a beautiful aircraft.


  72. 74 | January 6, 2013 11:11 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    Ordering pizza under Obamacare


  73. lobo91
    75 | January 6, 2013 11:11 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    My other favorite ads are the ones that tell you to tell your doctor if you have some other (usually terminal) condition before using their product.

    Shouldn’t your doctor know that already?


  74. song_and_dance_man
    76 | January 6, 2013 11:17 pm

    mfhorn wrote:

    Always wanted to see the Blackbird. Damn, what a beautiful aircraft.

    Great bird to see on the tarmac and in flight.


  75. 77 | January 6, 2013 11:19 pm

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    Yeah, the video I’ve seen is stunning. Kelly Johnson’s masterpiece. Another favorite was the XB-70 Valkyrie.

    I went out to Vegas a number of years ago when they were doing the USAF 50th Anniversary celebration. The Blackbird was supposed to do a flyby, but they didn’t make it the day I was there because of a blown tire.


  76. song_and_dance_man
    78 | January 6, 2013 11:22 pm

    @ mfhorn:
    I once worked in data and the collection and processing of it for marketing purposes. The vid is not too far off in what is known about us in the records Experian and the other massive collectors have in their databases.


  77. lobo91
    79 | January 6, 2013 11:25 pm

    @ mfhorn:

    The most amazing thing about the SR-71 is that it was built with 1950s technology.


  78. song_and_dance_man
    80 | January 6, 2013 11:33 pm

    @ mfhorn:

    I’ve reiterated this telling more than a few times. Norton AFB, last flight of the Bird or so it is said.

    It sat on the tarmac 100 yards aways. That was as close allowed. It taxied and gained speed at what seemed half a mile away. As it passed us, that is the crowd, it jumped on it’s afterburners and you could see the mach diamonds out of the tailpipes stretching to what seemed half the length of the bird. It made a turn and flew by again and turned again. The next pass was the most amazing. When it approached it went vertical and stepped on the gas and the thunder of its climb made my innards shake and gave me a feeling of nausea. The ground shook and it was out of sight going straight up within a few minutes.


  79. Moe Katz
    81 | January 6, 2013 11:34 pm

    Well, I’ve perfected my recipe for low-glycemic Wienerschnitzel tonight, which I served to my other half with sauerkraut. Healthy food isn’t necessarily unappetizing.


  80. 82 | January 6, 2013 11:43 pm

    @ lobo91:

    Yeah, both the Blackbird & the Valkyrie were amazing for being designed with slide rules!

    @ song_and_dance_man:
    That would have been great to see! God, what a memory. We’ve got one of ‘em up at the Kansas Cosmosphere, up in Hutchinson, about an hour a way. I went & saw them moving it down the city streets to the museum. Nowhere near seeing it in the air. I MIGHT have seen one once, one summer when I was working at a pool. I saw the thinnest contrail I’d ever seen, moving across the sky faster than I’d ever seen. No sign of the jet, either.

    A friend’s brother said that over in ‘nam, they’d stand well behind a/c getting ready for takeoff, and lean into the jet blast to see how far they could lean. Someone got the bright idea to do that behind one of the Blackbirds, but further back with those J-58′s. They still got blown head over heels.


  81. song_and_dance_man
    83 | January 6, 2013 11:44 pm

    @ Moe Katz:

    Up to a few nights ago I always thought of Wienerschnitzel as a hot dog dish, until an episode of Diners, Drive Ins and Dives.


  82. Moe Katz
    84 | January 6, 2013 11:47 pm

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Up to a few nights ago I always thought of Wienerschnitzel as a hot dog dish, until an episode of Diners, Drive Ins and Dives.

    I think that confusion arises because Americans think of wieners as a sausage (hot dog). Of course Wiener just means Viennese.


  83. lobo91
    85 | January 6, 2013 11:47 pm

    @ mfhorn:

    It really is amazing to see how far we came without any sort of modern equipment, compared to most of the rest of the world.

    How long have the Iranians been working on building a bomb, with the use of 21st century computers and machining equipment? And we did it in 1945, with slide rules, pencils and paper.


  84. lobo91
    86 | January 6, 2013 11:49 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Up to a few nights ago I always thought of Wienerschnitzel as a hot dog dish, until an episode of Diners, Drive Ins and Dives.

    I think that confusion arises because Americans think of wieners as a sausage (hot dog). Of course Wiener just means Viennese.

    Probably has something to do with the fact that there’s an American fast food chain called that that serves hot dogs.


  85. Moe Katz
    87 | January 6, 2013 11:49 pm

    @ lobo91:
    It doesn’t help when you have to stop to pray five times a day.


  86. lobo91
    88 | January 6, 2013 11:51 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    It doesn’t help when you have to stop to pray five times a day.

    There is that…


  87. Moe Katz
    89 | January 6, 2013 11:51 pm

    @ lobo91:
    What a shame. All these people missing out on the joys of the ultimate veal cutlet.


  88. 90 | January 6, 2013 11:53 pm

    I’ll see if I can find it sometime tomorrow, but there was a posting from a guy I went to school with about how some of the countries that spend the most on social programs have the best economies, or something along that lines.

    I’m out- off to the bad place tomorrow.

    Calling about that job I applied for in mid-December to see if they’re still looking at resumes.

    Calling my doctor (at Mrs MF’s insistence) since my leg has been bothering me for a month. Doctor at the urgent care clinic said it was a pulled muscle, but that was almost a month ago. She’s worried it might be more problems like I had last Christmas with my heart.


  89. lobo91
    91 | January 6, 2013 11:54 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    What a shame. All these people missing out on the joys of the ultimate veal cutlet.

    Or pork.

    Either way, better than a hot dog…


  90. Moe Katz
    92 | January 6, 2013 11:59 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    What a shame. All these people missing out on the joys of the ultimate veal cutlet.

    Or pork.
    Either way, better than a hot dog…

    Yes, pork schnitzels are great too, and screw hot dogs.


  91. lobo91
    93 | January 7, 2013 12:01 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    I still like a good hot dog. Or bratwurst.


  92. Moe Katz
    94 | January 7, 2013 12:05 am

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    I still like a good hot dog. Or bratwurst.

    I will eat bratwurst and knackwurst and such on rare occasions, but they ARE scary fat-wise.


  93. song_and_dance_man
    95 | January 7, 2013 12:05 am

    mfhorn wrote:

    I saw the thinnest contrail I’d ever seen, moving across the sky faster than I’d ever seen. No sign of the jet, either.

    There is a lot of test aircraft over the southern skies here in NM and I’ve seen a few of the same things off in the distance.

    When I lived in Socal every 5 years of so(and they almost occurred near dusk) we would see multiple stage rockets launched from Edwards. If you’ve ever seen this its amazing. You can see the stages of the rockets separation explode in space just like what you’d expect from a Saturn V taking a ships trip to the moon. And then these high altitude contrails would light up in multi-color as the sun set and yet these high flying clouds of gaseous vapor would linger against the darkening sky. Quite a sight to see.


  94. song_and_dance_man
    96 | January 7, 2013 12:10 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Of course Wiener just means Viennese.

    The food I saw called weinerschnizel was veal that was treated to a 5 day brine before it was cooked. That’s no fast dog fer sure/


  95. song_and_dance_man
    97 | January 7, 2013 12:11 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    It doesn’t help when you have to stop to pray five times a day.

    heh. Achmed, now where were we?


  96. Moe Katz
    98 | January 7, 2013 12:17 am

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    It doesn’t help when you have to stop to pray five times a day.

    heh. Achmed, now where were we?

    Strangely enough I got into an email exchange with a self-proclaimed Salafist from England. He told me Salafists are rational, tolerant, saintly people. So I asked him if who he had in mind as an example; the Taliban, the Saudis, or Al Qaeda. That was the last I heard from him.


  97. song_and_dance_man
    99 | January 7, 2013 12:19 am

    lobo91 wrote:

    I still like a good hot dog. Or bratwurst.

    Regular or ordinary dogs make me sick. It must be a childhood thing, or something. The only dogs I can tolerate are Hewbrew National beef or Johnson Brats.


  98. lobo91
    100 | January 7, 2013 12:25 am

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    The most amazing thing I ever saw fly was a B-52 taking off from Edwards many years ago. I was located just off to the side of the end of the runway while watching it.

    It’s incredible to watch a 488,000 pound airplane trying to launch itself into the sky. The wings even flap up and down during the takeoff run.


  99. song_and_dance_man
    101 | January 7, 2013 12:35 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    So I asked him if who he had in mind as an example; the Taliban, the Saudis, or Al Qaeda. That was the last I heard from him

    Who is the oldest of the three for $600 Alex

    uhh…What is wasabi?

    That is the type of question that leaves no room for any answer. That is, any answer that might leave the apologizer with anywhere to go afterwards.


  100. Moe Katz
    102 | January 7, 2013 12:48 am

    @ song_and_dance_man:
    Scots Wahabi wi’ Wallace bled.


  101. song_and_dance_man
    103 | January 7, 2013 12:51 am

    lobo91 wrote:

    The most amazing thing I ever saw fly was a B-52 taking off from Edwards many years ago. I was located just off to the side of the end of the runway while watching it.

    It’s incredible to watch a 488,000 pound airplane trying to launch itself into the sky. The wings even flap up and down during the takeoff run.

    That is cool. I’ve seen b-52′s nestled in their hangars at March(their tail wings wouldn’t fit inside) but never saw them fly.

    You may have seen me say this before. After 9/11 the skies of LA saw for the first time I ever saw fighter jets patrolling the air about the area. I was in the house and I heard what sounded like ongoing thunder. All of the cars alarms on the block went off and when I went outside to the north I saw a B1B hitting the throttle to go over the local mountains.


  102. lobo91
    104 | January 7, 2013 1:00 am

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    B-52s are…different. Pretty much like an apartment building flying around. Watching one on its takeoff run, the main thought that comes to mind is, “There’s no way on earth that thing is actually getting off the ground.” And then it does.

    I still remember watching the B-52 strikes going north during Desert Storm. We were just south of the Iraqi border, and we could see them on their way to bomb targets at night. They’re the only planes that typically fly in groups of 3.

    As long as they were still in Saudi airspace, they had their navigation lights on, just like flying in the US. All of a sudden, the lights would go out. Then, about 5 minutes later, we could hear what sounded like thunder from the north. A few minutes after that, we’d see the 3 sets of lights again, going south.


  103. AZfederalist
    105 | January 7, 2013 1:07 am

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ song_and_dance_man:

    B-52s are…different. Pretty much like an apartment building flying around. Watching one on its takeoff run, the main thought that comes to mind is, “There’s no way on earth that thing is actually getting off the ground.” And then it does.

    Ever see a C5 cargo plane take off? We used to watch them do touch and goes at Altus AFB when visiting relatives there.


  104. lobo91
    106 | January 7, 2013 1:07 am

    @ lobo91:

    It definitely brings things into perspective when you see something like that.

    We’d been living in foxholes for several weeks at that point, wearing chemical protective suits. We had chicken cacciatore T-Rations for dinner 17 nights in a row.

    But nobody dropped 150 tons of bombs on us.

    So it was still a good night.


  105. lobo91
    107 | January 7, 2013 1:09 am

    @ AZfederalist:

    Ever see a C5 cargo plane take off? We used to watch them do touch and goes at Altus AFB when visiting relatives there.

    I’ve flown on C-5s back and forth to Europe a couple of times.

    Not even close.

    Although it is interesting to see the fog drifting up from the cargo bay inflight, since the lower level isn’t heated.


  106. lobo91
    108 | January 7, 2013 1:20 am

    It’s really amazing that the Air Force plans to keep flying the remaining B-52s until at least 2040. The newest ones were built in 1962, when I was 2 years old. If they fly until 2040, they’ll be 78 years old.


  107. 109 | January 7, 2013 1:26 am

    TGoP and I saw a B-52 take off at the Dulles airshow back in 67. They actually closed Dulles airport for 3 days for the show (nobody used it anyway.) We were just off the runway at the lift-off end and watched it coming at us until it lifted off. Looked like Death on steroids.

    There’s an SR-71 in Air and Space museum annex by Dulles. It’s the very first aircraft you go by after coming in the entrance. Busloads of Japanese tourists run right by it without even a glance (I’ve seen this) becuse the Enola Gay is just a few yards ahead, and they’re all making a bee line for that.


  108. 110 | January 7, 2013 1:40 am

    @ Mike C.:

    They had the very first C5-A at that airshow as well, although we just saw it on the tarmac. It seemed mind-bogglingly huge. Probably the neatest thing we got to do there was to take an flight for the first time ever. American Airlines ran a deal where they would load folks up on a 707, fly you around (including mutliple low-level passes over DC) for 20 minutes or so, then deposit you back at the airport. TGoP still has her ticket. It cost $ 5, including tax. Took me weeks to save up the $ 10 bucks for that -- an expensive date by our standards back then. But neither of us had ever been on an airplane before. Flying somewhere was something rich people did.


  109. Guggi
    111 | January 7, 2013 3:00 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Well, I’ve perfected my recipe for low-glycemic Wienerschnitzel tonight, which I served to my other half with sauerkraut. Healthy food isn’t necessarily unappetizing.

    Wiener Schnitzel with Sauerkraut ????? OmG, this is soooooooooo evil I’m at a loss for words…..


  110. Guggi
    112 | January 7, 2013 3:13 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Yes, pork schnitzels are great too, and screw hot dogs.

    Today they are mostly from pork veal has become to expensive. Curiously the Viennese people always prefered pork and fried it in lard. Wiener Schnitzel from veal is fried in concentrated butter.


  111. Guggi
    113 | January 7, 2013 3:18 am

    song_and_dance_man wrote:

    was treated to a 5 day brine before it was cooked.

    What ????? Crazy, never heared of such nonsense.


  112. Guggi
    114 | January 7, 2013 3:21 am

    Oh, what they have done is a speciality from Upper Austria. “Surschnitzel`” á la Viennese.


  113. 115 | January 7, 2013 3:24 am

    Well, I make a Jagerschnitzel (pardon the lack of accent marks) every once in a while…


  114. heysoos
    116 | January 7, 2013 3:26 am

    I’m fine with a Ball Park Frank…they plump when you cook em


  115. Guggi
    117 | January 7, 2013 3:32 am

    Mike C. wrote:

    Well, I make a Jagerschnitzel (pardon the lack of accent marks) every once in a while…

    You won’t find “Jägerschnitzel” on todays menu in Austria (probably in Germany where it is one of the most liked dishes). It is so 1950′s :-)


  116. 118 | January 7, 2013 5:05 am

    @ Guggi:

    I’m pretty 1950s myself… In some ways, at least.


  117. Bumr50
    119 | January 7, 2013 5:44 am

    @ Mike C.:
    @ Guggi:

    It’s the original “country-fried” meat!


  118. Guggi
    120 | January 7, 2013 7:18 am

    Obama to nominate Hagel for top Pentagon post, Brennan to lead the CIA


  119. Da_Beerfreak
    122 | January 7, 2013 7:44 am

    The only way to cut FedGov spending will be to burn Mordor on the Potomac to the ground. :evil:


  120. Guggi
    123 | January 7, 2013 7:53 am

    @ Da_Beerfreak:

    Wouldn’t help, they grow again faster than mushrooms after a warm summer rain.


  121. Da_Beerfreak
    124 | January 7, 2013 7:55 am

    Guggi wrote:

    @ Da_Beerfreak:

    Wouldn’t help, they grow again faster than mushrooms after a warm summer rain.

    Salt. Lots of salt. :twisted:


  122. Guggi
    125 | January 7, 2013 7:58 am

    Da_Beerfreak wrote:

    Salt. Lots of salt.

    EPA :-P


  123. Guggi
    126 | January 7, 2013 8:00 am

    The stupidest international agreement since the Treaty of Versailles expired at midnight on New Year’s Eve. Fifteen years after its launch, the Kyoto Protocol to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change died a miserable failure. Few are likely to mourn. In Britain, however, the Government remains wedded to a post-Kyoto strategy, and along with the rest of the EU has agreed to ‘extend’ the treaty’s provisions. British policy, enshrined in the current Energy Bill, is being driven not by evidence but by irrational dogma, and to question it is to be accused of endangering the planet. In reality, a disaster of a different kind looms: years of chronic impoverishment while competitors roar ahead and world CO2 emissions rise unchecked. Welcome to the British industrial counter-revolution


  124. Da_Beerfreak
    127 | January 7, 2013 8:01 am

    Guggi wrote:

    Da_Beerfreak wrote:

    Salt. Lots of salt.

    EPA

    First to go. Then we can work our way down the rest of the list of useless agencies. :twisted:


  125. Guggi
    128 | January 7, 2013 8:05 am

    Da_Beerfreak wrote:

    First to go. Then we can work our way down the rest of the list of useless agencies.

    :-) :-) :-)


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