by Caroline GlickIn an interview with Haaretz in November 2010, British novelist Martin Amis said the following about discussions of Israel in his motherland:
I live in a mildly anti-Semitic country, and Europe is mildly anti-Semitic, and they hold Israel to a higher moral standard than its neighbors. If you bring up Israel in a public meeting in England, the whole atmosphere changes. The standard left-wing person never feels more comfortable than when attacking Israel. Because they are the only foreigners you can attack. Everyone else is protected by having dark skin, or colonial history, or something. But you can attack Israel. And the atmosphere becomes very unpleasant. It is traditional, snobbish, British anti-Semitism combined with present-day circumstances.
After participating last week in a debate in London about Israeli communities beyond the 1949 armistice lines organized by the self-consciously pretentious Intelligence Squared debating society, I can now say from personal experience that Amis is correct. The public atmosphere in England regarding Israel is ugly and violent.
The resolution we debated read: “Israel is destroying itself with its settlement policy. If settlement expansion continues Israel will have no future.”
[.......]
We debated Daniel Levy, one of the founders of J-Street and the drafter of the Geneva Initiative, and the son of Lord Michael Levy, one of Tony Blair’s biggest fundraisers; and William Sieghart, a British philanthropist who runs a non-profit that among other things, champions Hamas. Levy has publicly stated that Israel’s creation was immoral. And Sieghart has a past record of saying that Israel’s delegitimization would be a salutary proces and calling for a complete cultural boycott of Israel while lauding Hamas.
We lost overwhelmingly. I think the final vote tally was something like 500 for the resolution and 100 against it.
A couple of impressions I took away from the experience: First, I can say without hesitation that I hope never to return to Britain. I actually don’t see any point. Jews are targeted by massive anti-Semitism of both the social and physical varieties. Why would anyone Jewish want to live there?
As to visiting as an Israeli, again, I just don’t see the point. The discourse is owned by anti-Israel voices. They don’t make arguments to spur thought, but to end it, by appealing to people’s passions.
For instance, in one particularly ugly segment, Levy made the scurrilous accusation that Israel systematically steals land from the Palestinians. Both Dayan and I demanded that he provide just one example of his charge. And the audience raged against us for our temerity at insisting that he provide substantiation for his baseless allegation. [.......]
At another point, I was asked how I defend the Nazi state of Israel. When I responded by among other things giving the Nazi pedigree of the Palestinian nationalist movement founded by Nazi agent Haj Amin el Husseini and currently led by Holocaust denier Mahmoud Abbas, the crowd angrily shouted me down.
I want to note that the audience was made up of upper crust, wealthy British people, not unwashed rabble rousers. And yet they behaved in many respects like a mob when presented with pro-Israel positions.
I honestly don’t know whether there are policy implications that arise from my experience in London last week. I have for a long time been of the opinion that Israel shouldn’t bother to try to win over Europe because the Europeans have multiple reasons for always being anti-Israel and none of them have anything to do with anything that Israel does. As I discuss in my book, these reasons include anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, addiction to Arab oil, and growing Muslim populations in Europe.
I was prepared to conduct a civilized debate based on facts and reasoned argumentation. I expected it to be a difficult experience. I was not expecting to be greeted by a well-dressed mob. My pessimism about Europeans’ capacity to avail themselves to reasoned, fact-based argumentation about Israel has only deepened from the experience.
[......]
While their work is worthwhile, there is no future for Jews in England.
Tags: Caroline Glick, Martin Amis
I can well believe that.
I hope that is not true.
I am surprised it was only 5 against 1.
Good points. Israel hatred has less to do with anything Israel does or is alleged to have done but based on a number of factors, most of which are culturally inbred.
She mentions at the beginning of the column Martin Amis. I highly recommend Amis’s book “Koba the dread: Laughter and the twenty million“. “Koba” being one of Stalin’s underground names.
@ Speranza:
Yer mumbling to yerself. Kinda weird.
That whole “J Street” crowd with their support for Chuck Hagel should disqualify them from ever being referred to as a “pro Israel organization”.
MacDuff wrote:
Someone has to get the ball rolling and I discovered that if I keep posting comments eventually people will show up. It is a trick of the trade I have learned. Sometimes on threads that I post that are well over 100 comments the first 10-15 are mine.
I was prepared to conduct a civilized debate based on facts and reasoned argumentation
That was your first mistake. Here was your first clue that you apparently missed.
the self-consciously pretentious Intelligence Squared debating society
All self-consciously pretentious intellectuals are anti-Israel, anti-Semetic. It’s a requirement for belonging to The Group. Your audience was by definition a self-selected group of Jew-haters.
In other news:
Shock Claim: Obama Only Wants Military Leaders Who ‘Will Fire on U.S. Citizens’
Somehow I find this entirely believable.
@ eaglesoars:
Obama probably wants a Civil War. That would give him the pretext to scrap theConstitution entirely. Obama is the most dangerous man to the Republic ever to exist. He makes Jefferson Davis look like a piker.
Iron Fist wrote:
which also puts his own skin at extreme risk, as I se it
@ Speranza:
Just razzin’ ya.
I agree with @ eaglesoars in that the ensconced intelligentsia does tend to far more anti-Semitic than people at-large, but this seems to be a phenomenon that’s seriously on the rise throughout Europe.
I wonder how much the slow-motion economic implosion is exacerbating the already present European strain of Jew hatred? They do have some history of this type of behavior in dire economic times, don’t they? Old habits die hard.
I have dealt with a sociopath & Obama has all of the signs.
He only wants what is best for him.
@ Speranza:
Hee, hee:-) I’ve seen you do it
@ MacDuff:
From what I read the Euro Intelligentsia is turning anti-Jew, but the people are becoming Islamic haters. So there’s a divergence.
@ Iron Fist:
He thinks he has the numbers and would be supported by NATO and the Muslim Brotherhood block.
Iron Fist wrote:
He does have dictatorial tendencies doesn’t he?
MacDuff wrote:
It’s ok. After 3 years in this business I have learned a few tricks of the trade. Nobody wants to comment on a dead thread.
MacDuff wrote:
In Europe (20th cent.) the Jews were culturally associated with socialism -- and in many cases that was true. Being on the side of a political philosophy that wanted to redistribute wealth was not always a safe place to be.
Coming from the other side of the political spectrum, many Jews WERE wealthy. The Rothchilds developed their banking wealth because of the Christian mandate against ursury. Monarchs had to feed their military somehow, so they borrowed money from the Jews -- and the Jews got rich.
Not much of it had to do with whatever economic conditions pertained at the time. What you’re seeing now is a result of fading memories.
MacDuff wrote:
Bingo! It is always lurking under the surface ready like a pustule to reemerge.
eaglesoars wrote:
This is horrifying and I struggle to believe it’s even possible. If this is true, whomever has this information has a moral obligation to make it public immediately.
waldensianspirit wrote:
Don’t laugh, it works.
Speranza wrote:
Whaddya mean? Lily and I are old hands at it!
eaglesoars wrote:
Like his BFF, Recep Tayyip Erdogan he wants to purge the military.
eaglesoars wrote:
That’s an example of two people having a conversation.
@ eaglesoars:
No no.
You and Lily KILL the threads and then I comment on them.
Sort of like thread forensics.
MacDuff wrote:
Really? The so-called ‘civilian army’ that would be as great a force as our military? The naked drive to disarm us? All the sherrifs in how many states saying they will not enforce gun-grabbing laws?
HOMELAND SECURITY BUYING HOW MANY ROUNDS OF AMMO??
What were you expecting from an admin that arms Al Queda and sets up its own amassador for murder?
@ MacDuff:
Yes.
If the guy is a real hero he would do that.
Of course I am asking him to foresake everything he has worked for, subject himself to an avalanche of ridicule, ruin his reputation, and possibly put his and his family’s life in danger.
It’s asking a lot.
unclassifiable wrote:
Well, Lily and I like to talk to each other. The rest of you people can be SUCH a distraction………………
@ eaglesoars:
Well I am really talking to myself most of the time.
It’s OK. I get the answers I want.
It’s just that the arguments can be hell.
@ eaglesoars:
This is straight out of the Fascist/3rd World Liberation play book. The article I posted on this morning which you gave me is a piece of the puzzle.
eaglesoars wrote:
Forgot one.
An admin that assassinates a U.S. citizen.
Rodan wrote:
Ah, that reminds me. Wasn’t there a gun-grabber thing up for a vote at the UN? Anyone know how ‘we’ voted?
unclassifiable wrote:
Russia bugging out of Syria…a good sign something is about to happen
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130122/DA3VESD00.html
Speranza wrote:
Absolutely true. Case in point from this afternoon -
These this story over at Breitbart: GALLUP: ONLY 39 PERCENT HAVE POSITIVE VIEW OF AMERICA
Being the smart-ass I am, I comment:
Some a-hole responds:
I respond:
Someone else chimes in as a response to the original a-hole:
The story, nor my remark had nothing to do with Israel or Jews, yet the phrase “self loathing” attracts ‘em like flies on a dog turd on a summer day.
Yeah, there a lot of that particular brand of crazy always simmering just below the surface.
@ heysoos:
I just saw that. Think Obama’s going to send us in to win another war for al Qaeda? After all, Libya worked out so well for him…
Yes, the guy would be treated like a nut by the Dems & the MSM.
Of course if he ever listened to Camptown Races or saw Gone
With the Wind, they would scream “racist!’
There goes the pension & reputation.
He would have to name names.
Itv will take a strong guy & a patriot
The Society of St. Pius X and Antisemitism
heysoos wrote:
Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood is about to seize more territory for the Caliphate.
Iron Fist wrote:
I read where Assad was living on a boat, ready to split…be a shame if got a hole in it and disappears
@ eaglesoars:
The thing is, it is not the high ranking officers who will be firing on US civilians, it will be the officers and enlisted under their command. The question is whether those troops, in violation of posse comitas will engage US citizens in the US.
@ eaglesoars:
I haven’t heard anything on it.
Why Bibi is not intimidated by Obama.
The Osprey wrote:
Obama is a paper tiger.
@ Speranza:
I wish he was a paper tiger. Ask McCain, Romney and Boehner if Obama is a paper tiger. He’s one of the most ruthless politicians I have ever seen. Then again, beating up Republicans is like Ray Lewis beating up a paraplegic. So I take it back!
MacDuff wrote:
Well done!
AZfederalist wrote:
Um………….Nope
Rodan wrote:
lemme see what I can find
Rodan wrote:
McCain was a wimp. Stand up to this guy and he sulks and crawls under Chris Matthews skirt.
Bibi just won reelection
eaglesoars wrote:
a good thing…now he can be more flexible with BO
@ Speranza:
The sad part is the national GOP leadership is scared of Obama.
Rodan wrote:
but so are those five donk Senators up for re-election
Obama To Sign Anti-Gun U.N. Treaty?
This is from last July. I can’t find anything that shows it came up for a vote.
eaglesoars wrote:
I personally don’t give a shit anymore what BO does…he can fuck off, he is my natural enemy
@ eaglesoars:
I don’t think it went anywhere.
Anybody heard from coldwarrior? Western PA is getting hammered w/snow (and it’s colder than a witch’s tit here in NoVA)
gotta get to work in the kitchen
Back later.
@ eaglesoars:
That’s an interesting read and, as a Catholic, more than a little chilling and embarrassing. I’d not heard of the “Society of St. Pius X”, but I’m glad this sort of thing is seeing the light of day and I would hope it will be disinfected forthwith (though nothing really happens “forthwith” in The Church). This sort of thing is intolerable and represents neither me or millions of others like me.
The closing was exquisite:
@ eaglesoars:
@ Rodan:
Obama had it quashed just before the election. It will be coming back with a vengeance now that Obama can be more “flexible”.
Dales Weeks is our Macduff
Dale Weeks
Much like American Jews, all Americans have lost their way; one could easily substitute secular examples to your Judaic ones, and it would tell the same story.
American Jews and Americans at large have never had more in common; American Jews seem to have forgotten how to be Jews, and Americans have forgotten how to be Americans.
A Liked
Reply
8 hours ago
in reply to megatron
34 Likes
F
jackaru
“….. Americans have forgotten how to be Americans.”
Yeah, ‘real Americans’ would never elect a ‘Black’ guy to be Prez, right?
LOSER.
A Like
4 hours ago
in reply to Dale Weeks
1 Like
F
Dale Weeks
JACKARU (above) Funny thing, race had nothing to do with my comment, it wasn’t alluded to and never entered my mind.
You, on the other hand, immediately played your pathetic little “race card”, and hurled an insult to boot.
Who’s the “LOSER”?
@ Speranza:
I’m being “outed”?
Bouncy lip-synched the National Anthem.
These people are all fakes.
Rodan wrote:
Via the article Osprey linked to.
@ MacDuff:
They are not p[art of the Church.
@ Speranza:
I wish this was true, but just look at how the GOP bows before him as a god. They are scared of Obama and does what he wants.
And Bubba will be Bubba.
Rodan wrote:
The Stupid Party is scared of its own shadow.
The Osprey wrote:
Bill Clinton -- perpetually vulgar.
Great one from R.S. McCain: The next 1460 days: I STILL HOPE HE FAILS
@ Speranza:
They are going the way of the whigs. That’s why I tell everyone, look out for yourself. Exercise be healthy, save money, buy gold/silver, buy ammo, buy canned goods and keep your faith in God. We are going through a political dark age and there’s no political savior on the horizon.
Obama and the Democrats have turned this country into a defacto one party state.
@ The Osprey:
I have been warning about the Hipster movement. This is not some fashion trend or music trend. It is a very nasty totalitarian movement that has its goal the creation of a Dictatorship. Those who are not Hip, will be eliminated. Only those who are hip or awesome will be allowed to live. These people would make Stalin, Hitler and Mao blush.
The Osprey wrote:
…and the Dems still revere him as though he were magic. I actually remember when someone like him would have been an embarrassment to his country and his party, but now, neither his country or his party much cares and both see him as an icon.
Maybe that’s why the country and his party have so much in common these days.
@ MacDuff:
Clinton is an impeached president with a credible accusation of rape by Anita
Broadrick. Even then NOW President Patricxia Ireland didn’t dispute the claim,
but bsaid that the Statute of Limitations has passed.
Clinton is treated as a hero, because that’s how low the bar is now.
Rodan wrote:
No argument from me.
@ Speranza:
That’s my philosophy. Democrat vs. Republican is sham show. The Democrats are in power and Republicans are just a straw-man for them to beat up. We do not have a real political process.
@ RIX:
We’ve become a shallow, banal people. As I stated in my “outed” comment above, “Americans have forgotten how to be Americans”. I should have said that we’ve forgotten who we are.
We desperately need someone to reignite that torch that has been the American spirit for more than 200 years…..it’s become a friggin’ Bic Lighter made in friggin’ China.
@ eaglesoars:
The proposal was withdrawn, not enough support. It went back for modifications. It’s not dead yet, so vigilance is needed.
@ MacDuff:
American citizenship has become devalued.
It is tribalism now, my group against other groups and Obama exploits it.
I wonder what our troops think of us?
Speranza wrote:
been there myself since 2004
Rodan wrote:
The problem isn’t a failure of candidate or party, it’s a failure of the people. The apathy is palpable. I don’t think Patrick Henry himself could rouse these 300 million lumps of flesh from their stupor and, alas, that’s just the way people like Obama like ‘em.
MacDuff wrote:
after decades of abuse at the hand of the feds, what would you expect?…the govt had beat down the middle class without remorse, in favor of pandering to the helpless for votes..the system is rigged bro…talk all you want about reform or leadership, and I’ll tell you, you are wasting your breath…my pessimism is off the charts
the system is RIGGED…the liberals have developed a voting bloc in their favor that is almost invincible….they were looking forward decades while the GOP twiddled their thumbs…this situation was not just contrived, it was inevitable…if you live off the feds you cannot vote, otherwise, them and the media will succeed
the elite elected officials are full time pro’s…the electorate they lord over are part time participants..either the voters have their heads down pounding out a living, or they are sitting on their ass watching AmIdol, waiting for their check…under these conditions, political conservatism cannot and won’t survive…7.5% unemployment is a reality now, not some point I made almost five years ago
the GOP needs their own version of Obama…the game is forever changed, the fear I had when he was running in 07…there is no bar anymore
If there’re any admins around, this need a prominent place. It’s pretty excellent.
Arthur Davis:
Bright spots appear in the damnedest places, but sometimes a reformed Democrat can be the best person to rally around.
@ MacDuff:
@ MacDuff:
I guess I missed the bright spot…all that’s been said over and over
heysoos wrote:
Well, I guess we gotta say it again… .maybe we can say it in funny accents to get attention. Look, I’m about as pessimistic as you, but I’m not admitting defeat until I’m dead and I’ll be dead soon enough.
I gotta tell you though, the longer this administration wears on, the better that Lexapro looks. Eh, maybe a bowl and a beer until the pharmacy opens……..
Anyone following the election results in Israel?
personally, no one can defeat my principles…you can kill me for it but so what?…I’d die a free man while do the bidding of your superiors…spit
Moe Katz wrote:
I know they’re more uplifting than the last election results in the US. I also know that the Palestinians are, shall we say, not amused. Viva Bibi!
@ MacDuff:
Bibi, but with a very different alignment in the Knesset. Israeli politics are like a kaleidoscope.
I don’t think that England is a mildly anti-semitic country. The already-existing hatred towards Jewish people has been murderously inflamed by their resident jihadis.
Moe Katz wrote:
Ya got that right!
It’s going to be interesting to see what the new Government looks like.
@ MacDuff:
Speaking of dead, A parish priest told us in grammar school that Heaven is what
you like most in this life.
So, I will spend eternity in a great sports bar, with huge flat screens, great burgers,
pizza , wings & ice cold beer.
Notre Dame will win every game (Lou Holtz coaching) , the White Sox win
the World Series every year & the Cubs spend eternity apologizing for
disgraceful performances.
It will be great!
So Obama didn’t get rid of Bibi! Doesn’t have that kind of world power yet
RIX wrote:
Dang, I thought you got to play the harp. Never could get the hang of that instrument.
U.S. gift of F-16 fighters headed to Egypt, despite Morsi’s harsh rhetoric
Despicable.
Bet that you can get lessons up there.
RIX wrote:
Yeah, Lou Holtz! And all of the players would have REAL girlfriends!
Moe Katz wrote:
Personally, I’d prefer a Stratocaster…..with Clapton’s fingers.
@ MacDuff:
The Alabama destruction of Notre Dame was total.
The Bama star quarterbacks girlfriend is Miss Alabama.
On the other hand Notre Dames star line backers girlfriend
never existed.
Urban Infidel wrote:
Yes, times three. I see it in Canada with the public sector unions, the NDP/Green party socialists, and the Muslim stealth jihad. It’s not mild, it’s waiting for Stephen Harper to get voted out to go full strength.
RIX wrote:
It would probably take me Eternity to learn it. Hope the lessons are free.
MacDuff wrote:
Or Hendrix’s….
On the bright side, you will have eternity.
yenta-fada wrote:I see it in Canada with the public sector unions, the NDP/Green party socialists, and the Muslim stealth jihad. It’s not mild, it’s waiting for Stephen Harper to get voted out to go full strength.
That’s very true, and scary. Harper supports Israel out of principle, not political expediency. Pretty Boy Trudeau would sure be no friend of ours.
RIX wrote:
True. And if you don’t make any progress, maybe you’re in the other place.
RIX wrote:
Yeah, well……I know there’s a pony underneath that manure but I’ll be damned if I can find it!
On the bright side, at least for me, my Louisville Cardinals ate Florida’s lunch in the Sugar Bowl and are having a banner basketball season, No.1 before Syracuse upset us!
The Irish will just have to wait until next year…..and reintroduce those boys to reality! Back when I was in school, the football players had women hanging off them and the physics and engineering guys had imaginary women.
Things change, I guess. Have a good evening, my friend!
Moe Katz wrote:
Don’t go to that place. Obama is President for eternity.
Really annoying.
@ MacDuff:
Mac, have a great evening.
@ RIX:
LOL
Bibi will get to be a thorn in Obama’s side for another term.
Go Bibi go!
Moe Katz wrote:
Justin’s brother and campaign is an outright Communist. He’s smarter than Justin (not that hard to do). Our condo has just sent around a memo that a subcommittee i.e. one person, has been formed to look at “post-disaster recovery”. His name is something like Abdullah Abdullah. Clearly not one of the many Iranians in this neighborhood who came to Canada after the fall of the Shah. Straight up radical. What does he know? I’ve seen a couple of radicals in the lobby. I sat down and they moved to the other end of the room.
Moe Katz wrote:
I’m not “picky”, I’ll take either. Hell, Prince is also worthy of some awe! That’s a video worth watching if you haven’t seen it.
@ yenta-fada:
PIMF ‘campaign manager’
@ yenta-fada:
Living in Quebec I see it all the time from the old-stock Quebecois. People will pick arguments with me about Israel, as though I’m an official representative or something. The French-language media are so anti-Israel it’s sickening. In a way you can’t blame those Quebecois who get all their views of Israel from their own media/Radio-Canada, for their bias….
MacDuff wrote:
Nice pun. Speaking of which Chet Atkins once recorded an album called “Stay Tuned.”
Chores and trip to the gym await. Over and out.
Moe Katz wrote:
Bye! I belong to Honest Reporting Canada. I know about the French language media in Quebec and their anti-Israel views. The same goes for English Canada, frankly. The CBC is pro-Palestinian.
interesting…Jews and guitars?
Mike Bloomfield
yenta-fada wrote:
Yes, infuriatingly so. Makes me want to throw something at the radio sometimes.
Chores done, off to the gym.
MacDuff wrote:
Jeff Beck or Joe Satriani.
@ Speranza:
Worthy candidates both!