If you had to draw a picture of a Napoleonic dictator who knows what’s best for every one, that would be Michael Bloomberg
by Michael M. Grynbaum
It is the most humble of vessels for New York City foodstuffs, ubiquitous at Chinese takeout joints and halal street carts. In pre-Starbucks days, coffee came packaged in its puffy embrace.
But the plastic-foam container may soon be going the way of trans fats, 32-ounce Pepsis, and cigarettes in Central Park.
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, whose regulatory lance has slain fatty foods, supersize sodas, and smoking in parks, is now targeting plastic foam, the much-derided polymer that environmentalists have long tried to restrict.
On Thursday, Mr. Bloomberg, in his 12th and final State of the City address, will propose a citywide ban on plastic-foam food packaging, including takeout boxes, cups and trays. Public schools would be instructed to remove plastic-foam trays from their cafeterias. Many restaurants and bodegas would be forced to restock.
In excerpts from his speech released on Wednesday, Mr. Bloomberg rails against plastic foam, even comparing it to lead paint. “We can live without it, we may live longer without it, and the doggie bag will survive just fine,” the mayor plans to say.
[.....]
To become law, the ban would require approval by the City Council. The Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn, suggested in an interview that she was open to a ban on plastic foam as part of a larger effort to increase recycling.
“It lives forever,” Ms. Quinn said. “It’s worse than cockroaches.”
The plastic foam used in food packaging is not actually Styrofoam, according to Dow Chemical, the company that makes Styrofoam. The company says its product is widely used as insulation, but not “in the manufacture of disposable foam products, such as cups, coolers, meat trays and packing peanuts.”
Officials at City Hall said a plastic-foam ban could save millions of dollars a year. Plastic foam, which is not biodegradable, can add up to $20 per ton in recycling costs when the city processes recyclable materials. [.......]
New York led the nation in restricting smoking and sugary drinks, but the city is a relative latecomer to the antifoam trend: measures against the material are already in place in Los Angeles; Portland, Ore.; San Francisco and Seattle. Mr. Bloomberg has been only a sometime-ally of recycling advocates; early in his tenure, he called for the suspension of some recycling to save the city money.
Eric A. Goldstein, a senior attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council in New York, hailed the foam plan as “an important step forward,” saying it would bring environmental and quality-of-life benefits to the city.
Plastic foam, Mr. Goldstein said, “is so brittle.” He added: “It breaks into these tiny pieces, and it’s not easy to clean up. Getting rid of it means our parks, our streets, our waterways, will all be cleaner.”
The restaurant industry, which has complained about overregulation by City Hall, offered a more measured response on Wednesday.
“We have to consider what the costs will be for both government and the business owners who make the city run,” said Andrew Moesel, a spokesman for the New York State Restaurant Association. He noted that containers made of paper can often be more expensive than their foam counterparts.
Mr. Bloomberg is not the first mayor of New York City to propose a crackdown on foam. In 1987, Mayor Edward I. Koch joined a campaign to encourage fast-food restaurants to reduce their use of the product. [.......]
Mr. Bloomberg’s proposal is one element of a larger environmental protection effort he plans to pursue during his final year in office. In his speech, he will also pledge to install 1,000 recycling containers on sidewalks, doubling the current number.
The percentage of waste that is recycled by the city has fallen during the Bloomberg administration, to 15 percent today, from 23 percent in 2001. Mr. Bloomberg, in his speech, will call for
the city to achieve a 30 percent recycling rate by 2017.
[......]
Read the rest - To Go: Plastic-Foam Containers, if the Mayor Gets His Way
So what will restaurants use to keep drinks cold & food hot? Or are we just SOL?
As I did last year, I’ll be doing ‘Bowl for Kid’s Sake’ for the Big Brothers. If you are able, I’d appreciate the support.
Thanks!
@ mfhorn:
Do you think Nanny Bloomberg is concerned with pedestrian concerns like that? He’s saving the Planet! He can’t be bothered by keeping hot food hot, or cold drinks cold. YOu fail to realize how much better than you he is…
I remember waaay back when the hippies pushed paper based packaging out in favour of Styrofoam, to save the planet.
i wish they could make up their minds. /
@ citizen_q:
Progressives want change for the sake of change. It doesn’t have to be better. In fact, if it is worse, that’s plenty good enough for Progressives. It just has to be different. What is done today isn’t good enough, ever, even if it is far superior to what would be replacing it. Progressivism is a disease of dogs….
^^^This^^^
Back in the late 80′s when the hue and cry had succeeded in getting McDonalds and other fast food merchants to seek out paper products instead of the plastic foam containers, I had a teacher explain the facts of life to us. He said the amount of ENERGY to create a plastic foam container was far less then the energy to create the paper products that are now used. This was also the time of the great recycling ramp up and he said that there probably would be a time when the plastic foam containers would be recyclable. Food contaminated paper products? Not so much.
So thank you very much enviro-wackos. Your crusade against “styrofoam” helped McDonalds devastate forests to wrap their food.
@ PaladinPhil:
Yes, but they feel good about it. Results do not matter. It is how you feel about things that matters…
@ mfhorn:
Sorry, wrong link on the Bowl for Kid’s Sake.
It comes down to what type of world we want to live in. A feel good or logical/realistic world!
When will the “safe the trees” campaign start up again. It’s for the children!
Mr Spock where are you when we need logic!
O/T
‘Long-simmering’ tension at South High leads to ‘all-out brawl’
African-American, Somali(african-african?), black, muslim, can’t keep me victim grievance groups straight on this one to apply lib logic to predetermine who the bad guys and good guys are.
/
@ citizen_q:
If I move to Africa, would I be an American African?
IIRC shortly after she became Speaker, Nanny Pelosi banned styrofoam cups in all the cafeterias on the Hill. I’ve forgotten why, but it didn’t work out well and she had to drop it.
@ citizen_q:
Apply Arnaud Amalrics approach to things?
//////////
(interestingly enough it is one of those quotes that was purported to have been said, and there are doubts that he actually said it)
@ eaglesoars:
I don’t know what is more disturbing. pelosi or that she keeps being re-elected.
The whole world seems upside down to me these days. I tried to have a conversation with an octogenarian lady yesterday about Obamacare and how insurance premiums have increased substantially since it passed. She told me the insurance companies have increased their premiums for no other reason than to make Obama look bad, and she thought Obamacare was a good thing. After a little conversation about other things I concluded this person was a low information voter and DEM = good, REP = bad. I lost a lot of respect for this person in a few minutes.
96cid wrote:
Let us know when she’s denied life-saving medical care by Obama’s death panels
eaglesoars wrote:
Trouble is, that when care rationing will happen patients and family will likely not be informed about possible treatments that won’t be allowed, only about palliative care options.
citizen_q wrote:
That’s not the way it’s worked out in the UK. Why do you think people come here if they can afford it?
eaglesoars wrote:
I won’t be having any more discussions other than about the weather or something trivial.
The very brown roots of the German greenies
@ eaglesoars:
I think there are low information and high information patients just as we talk about low information voters.
If people are ideological enough to think obamacare will not result in depressing quality of care and outright rationing, I don’t think it’s a far leap that they might accept rationed choices if they are not informed about others. They are not doing their own research, or thinking.
mfhorn wrote:
I love those Styrofoam boxes that take out Chinese food comes in.
96cid wrote:
He never gets the blame -- ever.
@ Iron Fist:
@ Speranza:
One thing I despise Bloomberg for is the way he endorsed Obama. He admitted Romney would be better on the economy, but he was more concern about his daughter having a right to an abortion and Global Warming. He’s really an asshole.
Paulians like Jutin Raimondo are angry at Rand Paul.
.
Iron Fist wrote:
Actually we are destroying the planet to save it. Look what they do to the rain forests in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea by planting monoclutures of oil palmes for the production of “biofuel”
….and Greenpeace and WWF is making big money of it.
@ Rodan:
Justin Raimondo is a class-A dick. If he dislikes Rand Paul, that is another mark in Paul’s favor.
Rodan wrote:
He seems like a bit of a kook anyway. Bloomberg (the business organization) treats its employees like shit I have been told by people who used to work there or are still there.
For pure, unadulterated stupidity and mendacity about the prospect of raising the minimum wage, you cannot do better than this clip from WNYC.
Iron Fist wrote:
Being as he is a militant homosexual he would take that term as compliment.
Rodan wrote:
The only hope for Rand is to become disassociated with dear old dad. Not sure that really can be done though! There are even rumblings within KY about this issue.
A short video of the Russian meteor strike. Breathtaking!
So long as he stays in NYC, Bloomie can order his serfs to do anything he wants. Not my problem.
@ Guggi:
Biofuels in th eUS are starving people in Africa. That is one of the nasty little secrets about ethanol that they don’t tell you. It is really unethical as hell to be burning our food as fuel. It is wasteful, and artificially inflates the price of food. Americans can afford to pay the higher prices. Even our poor are fat. But Africans can ill afford the increased price of food.
@ Tanker:
Ron Paul’s fans are doing that and it helps Rand.
@ Speranza:
Bloomberg is a Fascist.
Good morning. Gun violence in Chicago is almost over.
Obama arrives today to address the issue.
He will probably propose a green initiative which will no
doubt make the gangs quit crime, get a job & buy a Prius.
Problem solved.
Iron Fist wrote:
I despise Raimondo. He thought Japan winning WWII would be a good thing. He’s a first class jerk.
Rodan wrote:
Did you read the comments on that article? A bunch of Nazi, antisemites, paleocons, nativists, embittered mother*******.
Rodan wrote:
His mouth and face in general looks like a twisted prune.
@ MacDuff:
neat, tnx!
Reminds me of opening of War of the worlds.
Plse pardon the typing. I am reduced to typing one handed for a bit. Had hand surgery yesterday.
Speranza wrote:
It’s all the salt he eats. Despite his avid efforts to ban salt for other people, Bloomberg is famous for dumping so much salt on his food that he risks mouthburn.
Rodan wrote:
As a Kentuckian (and a rational thinker) I was very skeptical of Rand Paul because of his father, but he’s been a pleasant surprise, as I’ve noted before. The farther gets from Ron, the better.
@ Speranza:
Nasty people.
Think that maybe Django was cribbed from this?
citizen_q wrote:
Well then, I’ll pardon you for not applauding!
I hope you’re feeling better soon.
Yeah, it looks like FX. I’m reminded of thinking at the time that 9/11 looked like a movie…..the effect this has on our concept of reality is an intriguing subject, no?
@ MacDuff:
He’s trying to take the Republican Party to a more individualistic based agenda.
Rodan wrote:
“Short man syndrome” in spades (full disclosure, at 5’5″, I’m not short….I’m compact)
Climate change! A meteor has never struck Earth before.
I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.
Rodan wrote:
The Republican Party is a natural home for true libertarians (not that wacky, dangerous snake oil that Ron Paul peddles). Buckley oft described himself as a libertarian.
RIX wrote:
I’m gonna get my wife to dress like Betty Rubble- she was hot!
RIX wrote:
I know an English major who has a Bronte-saurus.
MacDuff wrote:
i am reminded of the zen koan, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
Perhaps I will achieve enlightenment?
MacDuff wrote:
I have seen some very good altered video that looked real to my untrained eyes.
In the footage of the meteorite, I was surprised at the number of dash-cams and videos from cars.
Yeah, Betty is a smokin hot toon!
@ mfhorn:
You’re SOL. Here in SF, styrofoam’s been banned for years. If you have to walk more than a city block with your hot food, you need to eat fast. Hell, your Big Mac will be cold by the time you get it back to your desk…..
Literate animal.
MacDuff wrote:
Barney Rubble’s brother Steve ran Bedrock’s most famous nightspot, Studio 54 Million BC.
MacDuff wrote:
As a Kentuckian (by retirement/marriage), I too was skeptical of Rand. Seemed and seems to be to good. As someone that doesn’t place my hopes on man to solve all/any problems, I will keep that skepticism of all politicians. Hope he continues on his current path, but won’t be disappointed if/when he fails to meet my expectations!
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
Today I am phalange-saurus!
/
@ Tanker:
Yeah, “trust no one” is pretty good policy with anyone whose prime function is to be convincing.
Rodan wrote:
Rand Paul has been a most pleasant surprise.
@ citizen_q:
Gotbthe miseries, huh?
Speaking of dinosaurs, we seem to have a Tyranno-Sore-ass-Wrecks in the White House.
Traveling to the Minneapolis area the Somali immigrants seem
snarky with bad attitude.
@ MacDuff:
@ Speranza:
Rand Paul is Barry Goldwaterite small (l) Libertarian. Not the Far Right Anarchist Jutin Raimondo type.
@ Tanker:
Politicians are not saviors, they are humans. If people want a savior, then they need to go to Church.
@ RIX:
Yes, for now.
crapel-tunnel and A1 pulley release on 2 fingers yesterday.
RIX wrote:
Brought their pirate attitude with them, did they?
Rodan wrote:
Just make sure you leave all religious thought out of politics!
On the styrofoam issue, the stuff CAN be annoying; I just bought a new TV and a stand to put it on and the Styrofoam from the packing was incredible. The damned “peanuts” are especially maddening. I’m not totally unsympathetic to the dilemma the disposal of trash poses for cities nationwide and that dilemma for a city like New York is near unimaginable. I put whatever I can in the recycle bin and generally have more recyclables than trash because it just makes good sense. I put the styrofoam in giant bags but, as the trash and the recyclable go out on the same day, I have no clue what happened to the stuff.
All that said, passing a damned law every time there’s a problem to be solved is lazy and authoritarian- that’s not what self-rule is about.
MacDuff wrote:
It could be worse. It could be Dubai, with no sewer system and a convoy of tanker trucks to haul away the shit.
Hang in there.
@ Tanker:
The Obama cult is a religious movement. They really see him as some deity.
@ MacDuff:
I hate packing peanuts. Bring back excelsior! You can use it for kindling at a campfire!
Of course, I like bubble wrap. Because therapy’s expensive, and bubble wrap is cheap.
A lot of them are cabbies & hotel workers.
I get the distinct impression that they are
not very fond of us.
Ellison is their Congresman.
MacDuff wrote:
You can always burn it, just make sure you have approved smoke scrubbers on your burn barrel!
@ buzzsawmonkey:
And I’d be the one stuck downwind from the truck in my Mercedes from Abdul’s Rent a Wreck.
Just a heads up, we have a show Sunday.
MacDuff wrote:
The cartoon character yes…but not the actress who played her…EEEEWWWWWW!
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Importing pirates from the Horn of Africa. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?
RIX wrote:
They seem to be in news often enough expecting us to conform to them. Thinking problems with somali taxi drivers, meat packers…. for example
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/17/us-muslims-taxis-idUSN1633289220070417
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,421471,00.html
@ RIX:
thanks! I will
bbib
@ RIX:
Non-citizens aren’t supposed to vote. I know that is kind of a quaint and silly notion in these times…
Iron Fist wrote:
They’re just “out of status” citizens…
//
@ citizen_q:
The Somalis make no attempt to assimilate. They want the host
country to assimilate them, with very little if any reciprocity.
Hey, they’re just out of status Americans./
RIX wrote:
And every time an accommodation is made for these savages, our assimilation to their live style becomes closer!
I loathe take-out coffee in styrofoam cups, in fact I never bought coffee from Dunkin Donuts for that exact reason. I understand they’ve switched to cardboard now.
Do you folks manage to find a reactionary position on every god damn issue that comes up in the media? It must be really tiring.
@ Tanker:
It i sall part of Obama’s Fundamental transformation of the United States into a Third World country. We’re importing savages because our native savages (the ones who make the Chicago murder rate such an envy of the world) aren’t savage enough…
@ RIX:
You can thank the Islamic lobby for this. For all the talk of this Jewish lobby, the truth is any fair observation would conclude the Muzzies are the ones with influence in our government.
@ Moe Katz:
Then you should be thrilled, since 8 million people are now forced to bow to your preferences.
Islamic supremacy.
@ lobo91:
Do you lose your membership in the redneck club if you ever take a pro-environment position on any bloody thing at all?
@ Iron Fist:
To be fair, this happened before Obama. There’s a book I read called the Arab Lobby that explains it all. I will never forgive Bush after 9/11, he had gave preferences in the Immigration Visa Lottery to Islamic countries.
This is a huge bi-partisan problem. The infiltration of Islamic interests is very deep in our Federal government.
They are aggressive & a grievance group.
Because they are anti Western Liberals can’t resist them.
Moe Katz wrote:
Dude, browsers have options. If unhappy here, I could give some ideas as to where you might feel more at home! Thou shouldn’t use some language in my opinion, but to each his own!
@ Moe Katz:
Why should the government ban the product? If there is a better product than Styrofoam, then market forces will replace Styrofoam. I can’t speak for others, but my beef with Bloomberg is his imposing of his views on others.
Moe Katz wrote:
How cute.
FOAD, troll
@ Rodan:
Fascism is great as long as it is done “for the environment”. You should have figured that out by now, you redneck!
Rodan wrote:
Obviously, anyone who believes in the free market is a “redneck.”
Iron Fist wrote:
Yes, I am a redneck because I do not believe in the government banning a product!
Opposing Fascism makes me a Redneck!
Tanker wrote:
Well, sometimes I get tired of watching my collection of All In the Family reruns and I go looking for Archie clones on the internet….
@ lobo91:
Yes, we are all Red Necks now!
@ lobo91:
Indeed. I’m sure his sanctimonious condescending ass would be happier elsewhere.
Iron Fist wrote:
Or if it’s “for the children.”
Time to GAZE, folks.
@ lobo91:
If environmental protection was left entirely to the free market the continent would be uninhabitable. As CW likes to say, corporations are amoral. Some things require the government to set rules, and the environment is one of them.
@ Moe Katz:
Opposing the government banning a product makes a person reactionary? That is ludicrous and you should know better.
Rodan wrote:
Mine too.
@ Moe Katz:
And the really sad thing is, you actually believe that.
Moe Katz wrote:
Continuing to be a first class peckerhead will never get that invite to join the club.
@ Moe Katz:
Really? Green products tend to do fairly well in the American market as long as there isn’t too much government interference. OTOH, you get too much government interference and you get Solyndra. There was never a product there to sell, but there was a lot of crony money for them to scam off the American taxpayer.
lobo91 wrote:
Of course. Corporate actors are governed only by shareholder value. Someone has to make the rules the game is played by.
Moe Katz wrote:
I live in NYC. If Nanny Bloomberg had his way he would tell you when to get up in the morning, when to go to the bathroom, what to eat for lunch, etc. He wanted hospitals to hide milk so mothers would be forced to breast feed their new borns.
@ Iron Fist:
The newest generation of airliners were designed specifically with fuel efficiency in mind.
Was it because the government made them do it?
No. It was because the airlines who buy them wanted to spend less money on fuel.
@ Moe Katz:
How do you know the Government’s intentions are for the environment, or just a protect to get more control?
@ Iron Fist:
Prohibition never works!
@ Speranza:
You are a reactionary redneck!
Rodan wrote:
I am neither a reactionary nor a redneck.
@ Speranza:
I have been called many things, Reactionary Redneck is a new one.
Rodan wrote:
When did being a redneck become a bad thing around here. I’m hurt I tell you…just hurt!
“Rednecks” go hunting and fishing. And a group more seriously concerned with the environment you will never find. “Rednecks” buy hunting and fishing licenses that fund a vast percentage of the actual environmental preservation work done in this country.
Moe, sometimes you can be a real idiot. The subject was not about whether styrofoam was good or bad, it was about autocratic rule.
Maybe you should get some coffee before posting, ot at least stop drinking so early if you can’t handle it.
Speranza wrote:
Now that sounds a bit manipulative. But a styrofoam ban? I can’t get bent out of shape about that.
“The Problem With the World Today, It’s Plain to See—is Coffee in a Cardboard Cup.”
People have been bitching about takeout containers since forever.
Isn’t Red Neck that conservative enclave on Long Island?
@ Rodan:
Of course, no one talks about the environmental tyranny. Ask the farmers of California’s San Joaquin, Central and Imperial valleys about their lack of water for crops due to the Sierra Club’s hysterical protection of tne non-indigenous snail darter. Or the couple that was overly fined by the EPA for destroying what was essentially a mud puddle in improving their land because the EPA deemed it “wet lands” and denied them due process.
Rodan wrote:
Rodan, with all due respect, that’s crazy paranoia.
@ Tanker:
I never knew being opposed to government micromanagement makes somebody a redneck.
@ Moe Katz:
Paranoia? Does Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Mao’s China, Castro Cuba and Chavez’s Venezuela ring a bell? You do not know much about Bloomberg. He’s a Fascist and seeks to create a nanny state. I believe in Individualism which has led me to but heads with others on the Right.
Its a slippery slope once government dictates what you can buy and eat.
We need some redneck music.
@ Moe Katz:
Yes, you are right, because Totalitarians who want to tell you how much salt you can eat and how much sweet soda you can drink would never go for an outright power grab…
@ buzzsawmonkey:
Yes, next to Little Neck!
I find it amusing to see people waking up to “Moe Katz”‘s troll status.
I have yet to find an exception to the rule that someone who adopts a stereotypically Jewish-sounding screen nic will display his/her trollish tendencies, usually sooner rather than later.
@ Iron Fist:
I’m seriously LOVIN’ this:
http://weaselzippers.us/2013/02/15/gun-manufacturer-cancels-all-orders-from-ny-law-enforcement-over-new-anti-gun-law/#disqus_thread
This is gonna hurt -- York is one of the best at adaption of weapons for law enforcement.
@ Speranza:
What set me off here is that a styrofoam ban is such an innocuous thing. Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?
@ huckfunn:
We are all rednecks now!
@ buzzsawmonkey:
You would know what I’m about if you weren’t so wrapped up in yourself. Not much of a buzzsaw when challenged, mostly monkey. A screaming, upset monkey that throws a lot of poo.
@ Iron Fist:
prohibition works so well!
////
Moe Katz wrote:
Oh, I do. Believe me, I do; have done for a long time.
@ Carolina Girl:
Really, what do police need with Weapons of War? Not bein entirely facetious there. Why should cops get full-auto weapons if civillians can’t? A cop can always call backup, a civillian often cannot.
Rodan wrote:
Becoming a redneck can be achieved. You is or you aint! We tend to like it that way! Nothing wrong with not being one though.
Cowboy and Saturday night fever come to mind! Some are, some aren’t!
@ Moe Katz:
Care to tell us which freedoms “don’t matter”? I seem to recall you’re pretty Fuddish on the 2nd Amendment, so why don’t you just trot out your list?
Iron Fist wrote:
Because they don’t know how to drive standard shift…
Rodan wrote:
It’s always a slippery slope. It’s a slippery slope that you can’t decide each morning what side of the road to drive on, that is imposed on you by the evil, fascist state. For god’s sakes, societies have the right to make rules.
@ Moe Katz:
Good Morning Moe.
I was just fixin’ to rumble round my frig for lunch before i rode my horse off to work.
And, I noticed my Chinese food is in plastic containers, not styrofoam. I’m just curious if that is an acceptable container or should I just shovel the Kung Pao chicken into my here saddle sack.
And, what is your definition of a redneck, I’m curious.
Organic food production and sales work fine without subsidies. Green energy not so much although they get subsidies since more than 25 years.
Iron Fist wrote:
So that there can be more Chris Dorners, of course.
Nobody but police should have weapons, because they’re trained to use them! But the LAPD is an eeeeevil fascist organization, which must be fought with lethal weapons! Or something.
Moe Katz wrote:
Now you’ve done it…noone messes with the buzz when a redneck is around. FOAD time for you buddy!
@ Moe Katz:
Its not society making the rules. It’s a Fascist jerk imposing his agenda on the market place.
Was this out up to vote? Nope, so it was not society that is pushing this.
@ Moe Katz:
In America, though, there are strict limits on the kind of rules that Society can make. It is part of being a Constitutional Republic. Where in the Constitution is Bloomberg given the authority to regulate styrofoam? Just because he says it is for the environment is not sufficient authority.
Mike C. wrote:
I just don’t understand you people. It’s such a different mindset. The sacred right to buy takeout food in styrofoam containers. Give me styrofoam or give me death. It’s absurd to me.
@ Tanker:
Really, Tanker, I appreciate it. But he’s not worth your time.
@ Tanker:
Moe Katz has determined that anyone opposing a Styrofoam ban is a Redneck!
Tanker wrote:
I’m not terribly impressed with him, but I doubt he needs your pathetic support.
I’m one o’ them college-edumacated, semi-urbane kinda rednecks. I’ll follow a classical CD with some bluegrass. I prefer a fine scotch, but I’ll gladly drink cheap beer, if that’s what you got. I don’t hunt, but I’ll gladly join in shooting up all your ammo.
@ Moe Katz:
You don’t get the concept of limited government, do you? YOu think that because you want the government to do something, that is all the authority it needs to do it. Mussolini felt the same way.
@ buzzsawmonkey:
I seem to remember a 44-minute shootout in downtown L.A. not too long ago where the police were so outgunned by the perps that they needed to go to a local gun dealer and commandeer weapons so that their firepower would be equal to that which they were facing.
Oh, and the guns the perps had? Illegal in California. And yet they had them. My, my, my…..
Iron Fist wrote:
Where in the Constitution is government given the right to set highway speed limits?
@ Moe Katz:
The Feds don’t set speed limits, Moe.
Iron Fist wrote:
I think it’s great for conservatives to act as a brake against a runaway nanny state, but I don’t get hysterical about the right to create unnecessary landfill.
@ Moe Katz:
If one wants to see where something like this proposed “styrofoam ban” eventually leads, just look at California. Like I said above, I can understand the frustration with the crap, but just because something’s a pain in the ass doesn’t mean we have to legislate the damned thing out of existence. Maybe a creative solution would be preferable and more palatable to all concerned than flexing authoritative muscle, but Bloomberg doesn’t seem to have a creative bone in his body.
As for the reactionary redneck shit, that’s pretty uncalled-for. The point of the conversation wasn’t styrofoam per se, but rather another example of Bloomberg’s heavy handed and sanctimonious approach to everything.
@ Calo:
Really, outta the door now.
Me and Besty, my horse, will be back later.
Moe Katz wrote:
Landfill is landfill. Where do you, or anyone else, get off declaring what is or is not “necessary” for the entire society, or even a portion of it?
Rodan wrote:
I suspect if he really actually meet a true redneck, he’d shit his pants. For the record most rednecks would whip your ass if they caught you throwing your styrofoam cup out on his land! As stated above, they tend to be very protective of their hunting areas! No wasting meat is tolerated either!
@ Moe Katz:
It’s the nibbling away at rights writ small. The trouble is that these small nibbles eventually add up to a huge bite. It all is in the name of some nebulous ideal that is the culprit.
MacDuff wrote:
Yeah, but the tiresome predictability of this group always coming down on the reactionary side of everything got to me this morning.
Calo wrote:
Aww, if you’re going to get that picky, I’m going to point out the 55mph speed limit of 1974. So the FED CAN act in this sphere.
@ Carolina Girl:
my understanding is that several mfgrs are doing this, Olympic, LaRue are a couple that were mentioned in my local shooters forum.
@ Moe Katz:
You obviously do not read my posts. Have you not seen threads where I catch hell because I break with Conservative Orthodoxy?
read this thread and tell me if its reactionary. Look at the comments and tell me we are reactionary.
Look at the latest headline, I am going to catch hell for it because the groups I mentioned are viewed as Conservative heroes. You want to say that post is reactionary?
Moe Katz wrote:
Really you need to get out of the city and smell some fresh air.
Moe Katz wrote:
Runaway nanny state is exactly what we have in New York, California and Illinois. Burdensome taxes and regulations are driving people out of those states. Obama, Cuomo and Doomberg are nanny-statists and seek to control every aspect and every choice of every citizen’s personal life. A couple of years ago Obama famously congratulated the EPA saying that he was very proud that “the EPA now touches every citizen every day”. I don’t want to be touched by the EPA every day in every choice.
@ Rodan:
Rodan, I’m outta here. I’ll have a look at those links later and get back to you.
Hmm, Madison WI seems to be recycling a lot of styrofoam. Yeah, they’re an ultra-liberal bastion, but they’re employing a creative solution instead of an outright ban.
Maybe Bloomberg could call Madison’s mayor for some tips on leadership…..
Moe Katz wrote:
Yet you keep coming back.
MacDuff wrote:
Solutions to problems, now there’s a novel idea!
MacDuff wrote:
Bloomberg bribed his way into an additional mayoral term. He don’t need no stinkin’ leadership.
Moe Katz wrote:
It never stops with Bloomberg. He is on a constant jihad of nanny statism.
Carolina Girl wrote:
The Bank of America robbery in 1997.
Speranza wrote:
Moe’s gone now, but if that sentence doesn’t encapsulate the attitude that’s emboldening these people, I don’t know what does. I didn’t see it until your reply, above.
I so look forward to being able to sing,
Nanny nanny
Nanny Bloomberg
Hey hey
Goodbye!
@ MacDuff:
There’s something very c-h-i-l-l-i-n-g about the statement “any freedom that matters.”
Carolina Girl wrote:
Sounds like something Nancy Pelosi would say
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
Because some people here are worth talking to. You, I just find vexatious at best.
Carolina Girl wrote:
lobo91 wrote:
Or as Shrill put it “What difference does it make?”
Speranza wrote:
Okay, I see your point. In that context, the styrofoam thing was just another straw on the camel’s back. Sorry if I took you to task unfairly.
Inventor of STYROFOAM™ Named to National Inventors Hall of Fame
Carolina Girl wrote:
Not really. We give up some freedom to live in a civilized society -- we don’t live on little desert islands where we can do anything we please. Kids usually figure that out between ages 2 and 3. Farming and food production are pretty fundamental rights, you’d agree? But most municipalities won’t let you keep pigs and chickens in your back yard. If you want to do that, you need to live in the country. Do you feel enslaved because you can’t keep livestock at home?
MacDuff wrote:
Mac, freedom IS NOT absolute. We give up all sorts of freedoms in order to belong to an organized society. This idea of absolute freedom is ideological, and it’s not consistent with reality.
@ Moe Katz:
Since that’s been the case in most urban areas for many decades, it’s a pretty silly analogy.
What if your city council decides one day that dogs are now banned, because some people are alergic to them? Would you consider that a “reasonable” restriction?
And if not, why not? Unless you’re blind, you don’t “need” a dog, right?
http://www.wattsupwiththat.com
CO2 fraud, supported by commie Democrats who vote for the EPA to tell you when and how to take a shit.
Soon they would demand you eat shit but for conservatives who will never bide commie total rule shit like you would lay down for.
If not for conservatives you would be eating Russian Commie Shit already.
Liberals and Democrats get to do the silly shit they do only because we conservatives man the walls and give our lives in defence of the Constitution and Freedom.
Commie Liberal Democrats not so much.@ Moe Katz:
Moe Katz wrote:
Good. Bust several guts.
Iron Fist wrote:
Back in 1999 he was fairly reasonable; he did a lot of work in supporting the Serbs. But soon after, he went completely off the rails. Seems to me as though he’s mentally ill.
buzzsawmonkey wrote:
We get trolls on 1389 Blog too. CzechRebel enjoys messing with their heads.
Mike C. wrote:
Nobody should ever diss anybody on account of the color of his neck!
I love me some rednecks. Most of my friends are rednecks. Best people on the planet, bar none. I’ve often been called one myself, and consider it an honor.
I also love me some coffee. Elixir of life!
Moe Katz wrote:
Of course it’s not absolute, but neither is it arbitrarily withdrawn without a damned compelling reason.
This is a product that’s virtually innocuous and has been in use for more than a half a century, to suddenly ban it because of its lack of degradability is absurd. There are all sorts of non degradable materials in landfills including numerous types of plastics and glass, are they next? As I said above, Madison, WI recycles styrofoam, why can’t New York?
Bloomberg’s answer to every damned challenge that crosses his desk is “ban it”. Call me “reactionary” if you like, but authoritarianism in lieu of creativity in government is more than a little disturbing. And, by the way, you remark “Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?” begs the question who decides which freedom “matters” and which doesn’t?
It’s not about styrofoam, it’s about freedom that erodes just as does sand on a beach; a handful at a time.
lobo91 wrote:
You call MY example farfetched and come back with this? Dogs are considered family members in many households, and the consensus is they do more good than harm, so a dog ban would be very unpopular. But, in principle, could a municipal council ban dogs? Sure, though that would only last until the next election, when they got tossed out.
MacDuff wrote:
However, your libertarianism deprives people of a different kind of freedom—the freedom to act in concert by making laws that express shared sentiments. The more individualist you make your system, the less people can act together. So there’s a trade-off.
MacDuff wrote:
Okay, several people have seized on that. The answer is that freedoms ARE NOT all equally significant. Claiming that they are is just politically loaded rhetoric. The freedom to drive on either side of the road is one that we relinquish without complaint. The freedom to bitch about public policy is one that we defend jealously. All freedoms are not created equal.
Moe Katz wrote:
My libertarianism celebrates people “acting in concert that express shared sentiments”; that’s the essence of self government. Methinks your confusing libertarianism with anarchy. These erosions of liberty, however, aren’t coming from the people, quite the contrary and therein lies my problem.
Moe Katz wrote:
Again, who decides what’s significant and what’s the definition thereof? The answer to that question goes to the heart of the type of society we have. The local, state and federal legal code would likely fill a good sized room and is lot of it is comprised of “insignificant” laws and there are more being added daily. This is death by a thousand cuts and what you call insignificant is damned significant, collectively, and I believe individually as well.
MacDuff wrote:
You’re implying that gov’t is something alien and apart from the people, something evil that needs to be opposed. In a democracy, government IS the people, even if it expresses the public will imperfectly. In setting up the gov’t as the bad guy, you ARE engaging in a kind of anarchist thinking.
MacDuff wrote:
I guess I look at it differently. The big picture to me is that society is progressing, that the western world is generally evolving toward something better, more humane, and more moral. Sometimes sober minded people, conservatives, are needed to check this process, and to act as a brake when the changes proposed are ill considered and potentially harmful. But, overall, I believe in the progressive advancement of western civilization. Now this means we ARE going to have to put up with a little ‘re-education’ that we don’t like, a little moral hectoring by sanctimonious youth, a little brainwashing by those in positions of power. I’ll squawk about it when I don’t like it, with or without justification. But I do believe this is the tide of history, and we shouldn’t stand against it.
Moe Katz wrote:
I hardly think my views are even slightly anarchist. What happened to (your words) “The freedom to bitch about public policy is one that we defend jealously.” I’m just a believer that less is more when it comes to government or, as it is said “the government that governs least, governs best”. And these are not, by and large, exercises of public will. I doubt if there’s been a groundswell of indignation over styrofoam (what started the protracted discussion), it’s pretty unilateral.
A little government goes a long way, and we have a lot. Skepticism about government power isn’t paranoid or, God forbid, anarchist. It’s healthy as hell. To much trust in government isn’t.
@ MacDuff:
Okay. I just don’t feel my personal freedom is threatened when the state passes laws about what kind of takeout containers the fast food industry can use. You know, Canada and the US are both negotiating free trade agreements with the E-U; if you think we’re burdened with regulations NOW, just wait…. LOL!
@ Moe Katz:
The British are coming again, aren’t they?
Time for a tea party upthread with Dorian.
@ Moe Katz:
And, again, I really believe we are being dragged, kicking and screaming, into a better world. I know this makes me a heretic here, but that’s what I believe.
Calo wrote:
I didn’t even know they were breathing hard!
Moe Katz wrote:
Sorry, not only do I not buy a word of that rather bizarre paragraph, it’s disturbing as hell. Really it is. Good God man, for your sake I’ll hope it’s parody.
That said, It’s clear that we’ll never come to any agreement on this or much of any other subject save, perhaps, our mutual love of ice cream or our dislike of cancer. It’s a futile endeavor, it’s late, and I’m quite fatigued.
Thank you for a highly spirited, yet civil discussion. As a stroke survivor (please don’t feel compelled to offer a polite comment, life’s good) it’s excellent brain exercise in finding words and constructing sentences. Good therapy tonight, but do not send me a bill.
Thanks again and have a good evening. We’ll likely speak again.
@ MacDuff:
Goodnight Mac, likewise thanks for the cordial conversation. Be well.