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“Nanny” Bloomberg seeks to ban Styrofoam

by Speranza ( 207 Comments › )
Filed under Liberal Fascism, Progressives at February 15th, 2013 - 7:00 am

If you had to draw a picture of a Napoleonic dictator who knows what’s best for every one, that would be Michael Bloomberg

by Michael M. Grynbaum

It is the most humble of vessels for New York City foodstuffs, ubiquitous at Chinese takeout joints and halal street carts. In pre-Starbucks days, coffee came packaged in its puffy embrace.

But the plastic-foam container may soon be going the way of trans fats, 32-ounce Pepsis, and cigarettes in Central Park.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, whose regulatory lance has slain fatty foods, supersize sodas, and smoking in parks, is now targeting plastic foam, the much-derided polymer that environmentalists have long tried to restrict.

On Thursday, Mr. Bloomberg, in his 12th and final State of the City address, will propose a citywide ban on plastic-foam food packaging, including takeout boxes, cups and trays. Public schools would be instructed to remove plastic-foam trays from their cafeterias. Many restaurants and bodegas would be forced to restock.

In excerpts from his speech released on Wednesday, Mr. Bloomberg rails against plastic foam, even comparing it to lead paint. “We can live without it, we may live longer without it, and the doggie bag will survive just fine,” the mayor plans to say.

[.....]

To become law, the ban would require approval by the City Council. The Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn, suggested in an interview that she was open to a ban on plastic foam as part of a larger effort to increase recycling.

“It lives forever,” Ms. Quinn said. “It’s worse than cockroaches.”

The plastic foam used in food packaging is not actually Styrofoam, according to Dow Chemical, the company that makes Styrofoam. The company says its product is widely used as insulation, but not “in the manufacture of disposable foam products, such as cups, coolers, meat trays and packing peanuts.”

Officials at City Hall said a plastic-foam ban could save millions of dollars a year. Plastic foam, which is not biodegradable, can add up to $20 per ton in recycling costs when the city processes recyclable materials.  [.......]

New York led the nation in restricting smoking and sugary drinks, but the city is a relative latecomer to the antifoam trend: measures against the material are already in place in Los Angeles; Portland, Ore.; San Francisco and Seattle. Mr. Bloomberg has been only a sometime-ally of recycling advocates; early in his tenure, he called for the suspension of some recycling to save the city money.

Eric A. Goldstein, a senior attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council in New York, hailed the foam plan as “an important step forward,” saying it would bring environmental and quality-of-life benefits to the city.

Plastic foam, Mr. Goldstein said, “is so brittle.” He added: “It breaks into these tiny pieces, and it’s not easy to clean up. Getting rid of it means our parks, our streets, our waterways, will all be cleaner.”

The restaurant industry, which has complained about overregulation by City Hall, offered a more measured response on Wednesday.

“We have to consider what the costs will be for both government and the business owners who make the city run,” said Andrew Moesel, a spokesman for the New York State Restaurant Association. He noted that containers made of paper can often be more expensive than their foam counterparts.

Mr. Bloomberg is not the first mayor of New York City to propose a crackdown on foam. In 1987, Mayor Edward I. Koch joined a campaign to encourage fast-food restaurants to reduce their use of the product.  [.......]

Mr. Bloomberg’s proposal is one element of a larger environmental protection effort he plans to pursue during his final year in office. In his speech, he will also pledge to install 1,000 recycling containers on sidewalks, doubling the current number.

The percentage of waste that is recycled by the city has fallen during the Bloomberg administration, to 15 percent today, from 23 percent in 2001. Mr. Bloomberg, in his speech, will call for

the city to achieve a 30 percent recycling rate by 2017.

[......]

Read the rest -  To Go: Plastic-Foam Containers, if the Mayor Gets His Way

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207 Responses to ““Nanny” Bloomberg seeks to ban Styrofoam”
( jump to bottom )

  1. 1 | February 15, 2013 7:06 am

    So what will restaurants use to keep drinks cold & food hot? Or are we just SOL?


  2. 2 | February 15, 2013 7:13 am

    As I did last year, I’ll be doing ‘Bowl for Kid’s Sake’ for the Big Brothers. If you are able, I’d appreciate the support.

    Thanks!


  3. 3 | February 15, 2013 7:18 am

    @ mfhorn:

    Do you think Nanny Bloomberg is concerned with pedestrian concerns like that? He’s saving the Planet! He can’t be bothered by keeping hot food hot, or cold drinks cold. YOu fail to realize how much better than you he is… :roll:


  4. citizen_q
    4 | February 15, 2013 7:32 am

    I remember waaay back when the hippies pushed paper based packaging out in favour of Styrofoam, to save the planet.

    i wish they could make up their minds. /


  5. 5 | February 15, 2013 7:37 am

    @ citizen_q:

    Progressives want change for the sake of change. It doesn’t have to be better. In fact, if it is worse, that’s plenty good enough for Progressives. It just has to be different. What is done today isn’t good enough, ever, even if it is far superior to what would be replacing it. Progressivism is a disease of dogs….


  6. 6 | February 15, 2013 7:39 am

    “We have to consider what the costs will be for both government and the business owners who make the city run,” said Andrew Moesel, a spokesman for the New York State Restaurant Association. He noted that containers made of paper can often be more expensive than their foam counterparts.

    ^^^This^^^

    Back in the late 80′s when the hue and cry had succeeded in getting McDonalds and other fast food merchants to seek out paper products instead of the plastic foam containers, I had a teacher explain the facts of life to us. He said the amount of ENERGY to create a plastic foam container was far less then the energy to create the paper products that are now used. This was also the time of the great recycling ramp up and he said that there probably would be a time when the plastic foam containers would be recyclable. Food contaminated paper products? Not so much.

    So thank you very much enviro-wackos. Your crusade against “styrofoam” helped McDonalds devastate forests to wrap their food.


  7. 7 | February 15, 2013 7:44 am

    @ PaladinPhil:

    Yes, but they feel good about it. Results do not matter. It is how you feel about things that matters…


  8. 8 | February 15, 2013 7:52 am

    @ mfhorn:

    Sorry, wrong link on the Bowl for Kid’s Sake.


  9. Tanker
    9 | February 15, 2013 7:57 am

    It comes down to what type of world we want to live in. A feel good or logical/realistic world!

    When will the “safe the trees” campaign start up again. It’s for the children!

    Mr Spock where are you when we need logic!


  10. citizen_q
    10 | February 15, 2013 8:01 am

    O/T
    ‘Long-simmering’ tension at South High leads to ‘all-out brawl’

    [One student] said the fights were over pride. ‘I know it’s a pride thing between Muslims and black people,’ she said. ‘They want their pride back for something. I don’t know.’ She also said ‘boys were hitting girls’ and that some people were lying on the floor, with their hands over their heads, in surrender.… The fight, students say, was the result of long-simmering tensions between the 8 percent of students who are Somali Americans and the 20 percent who are African Americans.”

    African-American, Somali(african-african?), black, muslim, can’t keep me victim grievance groups straight on this one to apply lib logic to predetermine who the bad guys and good guys are.
    /


  11. 11 | February 15, 2013 8:03 am

    @ citizen_q:

    If I move to Africa, would I be an American African?


  12. eaglesoars
    12 | February 15, 2013 8:05 am

    IIRC shortly after she became Speaker, Nanny Pelosi banned styrofoam cups in all the cafeterias on the Hill. I’ve forgotten why, but it didn’t work out well and she had to drop it.


  13. 13 | February 15, 2013 8:11 am

    @ citizen_q:
    Apply Arnaud Amalrics approach to things?
    //////////
    (interestingly enough it is one of those quotes that was purported to have been said, and there are doubts that he actually said it)


  14. citizen_q
    14 | February 15, 2013 8:13 am

    @ eaglesoars:
    I don’t know what is more disturbing. pelosi or that she keeps being re-elected.


  15. 96cid
    15 | February 15, 2013 8:16 am

    The whole world seems upside down to me these days. I tried to have a conversation with an octogenarian lady yesterday about Obamacare and how insurance premiums have increased substantially since it passed. She told me the insurance companies have increased their premiums for no other reason than to make Obama look bad, and she thought Obamacare was a good thing. After a little conversation about other things I concluded this person was a low information voter and DEM = good, REP = bad. I lost a lot of respect for this person in a few minutes.


  16. eaglesoars
    16 | February 15, 2013 8:25 am

    96cid wrote:

    She told me the insurance companies have increased their premiums for no other reason than to make Obama look bad

    Let us know when she’s denied life-saving medical care by Obama’s death panels


  17. citizen_q
    17 | February 15, 2013 8:35 am

    eaglesoars wrote:

    96cid wrote:
    She told me the insurance companies have increased their premiums for no other reason than to make Obama look bad
    Let us know when she’s denied life-saving medical care by Obama’s death panels

    Trouble is, that when care rationing will happen patients and family will likely not be informed about possible treatments that won’t be allowed, only about palliative care options.


  18. eaglesoars
    18 | February 15, 2013 8:39 am

    citizen_q wrote:

    Trouble is, that when care rationing will happen patients and family will likely not be informed about possible treatments that won’t be allowed, only about palliative care options.

    That’s not the way it’s worked out in the UK. Why do you think people come here if they can afford it?


  19. 96cid
    19 | February 15, 2013 8:44 am

    eaglesoars wrote:

    96cid wrote:
    She told me the insurance companies have increased their premiums for no other reason than to make Obama look bad
    Let us know when she’s denied life-saving medical care by Obama’s death panels

    I won’t be having any more discussions other than about the weather or something trivial.


  20. Guggi
    20 | February 15, 2013 8:46 am

    The very brown roots of the German greenies


  21. citizen_q
    21 | February 15, 2013 8:54 am

    @ eaglesoars:
    I think there are low information and high information patients just as we talk about low information voters.

    If people are ideological enough to think obamacare will not result in depressing quality of care and outright rationing, I don’t think it’s a far leap that they might accept rationed choices if they are not informed about others. They are not doing their own research, or thinking.


  22. Speranza
    22 | February 15, 2013 8:55 am

    mfhorn wrote:

    So what will restaurants use to keep drinks cold & food hot? Or are we just SOL?

    I love those Styrofoam boxes that take out Chinese food comes in.


  23. Speranza
    23 | February 15, 2013 8:56 am

    96cid wrote:

    She told me the insurance companies have increased their premiums for no other reason than to make Obama look bad, and she thought Obamacare was a good thing.

    He never gets the blame -- ever.


  24. 24 | February 15, 2013 8:58 am

    @ Iron Fist:
    @ Speranza:

    One thing I despise Bloomberg for is the way he endorsed Obama. He admitted Romney would be better on the economy, but he was more concern about his daughter having a right to an abortion and Global Warming. He’s really an asshole.


  25. 25 | February 15, 2013 9:01 am

    Paulians like Jutin Raimondo are angry at Rand Paul.

    That explanation wasn’t good enough for Justin Raimondo, editorial director of Antiwar.com and a strong supporter of Ron Paul. “It’s time for libertarians to treat Rand Paul like the turncoat he is: boycott,” Raimondo tweeted. “No $$, no support, & start calling him Paul the Lesser

    .


  26. Guggi
    26 | February 15, 2013 9:06 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    He’s saving the Planet!

    Actually we are destroying the planet to save it. Look what they do to the rain forests in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea by planting monoclutures of oil palmes for the production of “biofuel”

    ….and Greenpeace and WWF is making big money of it.


  27. 27 | February 15, 2013 9:08 am

    @ Rodan:

    Justin Raimondo is a class-A dick. If he dislikes Rand Paul, that is another mark in Paul’s favor.


  28. Speranza
    28 | February 15, 2013 9:09 am

    Rodan wrote:

    One thing I despise Bloomberg for is the way he endorsed Obama. He admitted Romney would be better on the economy, but he was more concern about his daughter having a right to an abortion and Global Warming. He’s really an asshole.

    He seems like a bit of a kook anyway. Bloomberg (the business organization) treats its employees like shit I have been told by people who used to work there or are still there.


  29. Speranza
    30 | February 15, 2013 9:10 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Rodan:
    Justin Raimondo is a class-A dick. If he dislikes Rand Paul, that is another mark in Paul’s favor.

    Being as he is a militant homosexual he would take that term as compliment.


  30. Tanker
    31 | February 15, 2013 9:11 am

    Rodan wrote:

    Paulians like Jutin Raimondo are angry at Rand Paul.
    That explanation wasn’t good enough for Justin Raimondo, editorial director of Antiwar.com and a strong supporter of Ron Paul. “It’s time for libertarians to treat Rand Paul like the turncoat he is: boycott,” Raimondo tweeted. “No $$, no support, & start calling him Paul the Lesser
    .

    The only hope for Rand is to become disassociated with dear old dad. Not sure that really can be done though! There are even rumblings within KY about this issue.


  31. 32 | February 15, 2013 9:13 am

    A short video of the Russian meteor strike. Breathtaking!


  32. 33 | February 15, 2013 9:14 am

    So long as he stays in NYC, Bloomie can order his serfs to do anything he wants. Not my problem.


  33. 34 | February 15, 2013 9:14 am

    @ Guggi:

    Biofuels in th eUS are starving people in Africa. That is one of the nasty little secrets about ethanol that they don’t tell you. It is really unethical as hell to be burning our food as fuel. It is wasteful, and artificially inflates the price of food. Americans can afford to pay the higher prices. Even our poor are fat. But Africans can ill afford the increased price of food.


  34. 35 | February 15, 2013 9:14 am

    @ Tanker:

    Ron Paul’s fans are doing that and it helps Rand.


  35. 36 | February 15, 2013 9:15 am

    @ Speranza:

    Bloomberg is a Fascist.


  36. RIX
    37 | February 15, 2013 9:15 am

    Good morning. Gun violence in Chicago is almost over.
    Obama arrives today to address the issue.
    He will probably propose a green initiative which will no
    doubt make the gangs quit crime, get a job & buy a Prius.
    Problem solved.


  37. 38 | February 15, 2013 9:16 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Rodan:
    Justin Raimondo is a class-A dick. If he dislikes Rand Paul, that is another mark in Paul’s favor.

    I despise Raimondo. He thought Japan winning WWII would be a good thing. He’s a first class jerk.


  38. Speranza
    39 | February 15, 2013 9:16 am

    Rodan wrote:

    Paulians like Jutin Raimondo are angry at Rand Paul.
    That explanation wasn’t good enough for Justin Raimondo, editorial director of Antiwar.com and a strong supporter of Ron Paul. “It’s time for libertarians to treat Rand Paul like the turncoat he is: boycott,” Raimondo tweeted. “No $$, no support, & start calling him Paul the Lesser
    .

    Did you read the comments on that article? A bunch of Nazi, antisemites, paleocons, nativists, embittered mother*******.


  39. Speranza
    40 | February 15, 2013 9:21 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    Bloomberg is a Fascist.

    His mouth and face in general looks like a twisted prune.


  40. citizen_q
    41 | February 15, 2013 9:24 am

    @ MacDuff:
    neat, tnx!

    Reminds me of opening of War of the worlds.

    Plse pardon the typing. I am reduced to typing one handed for a bit. Had hand surgery yesterday.


  41. buzzsawmonkey
    42 | February 15, 2013 9:25 am

    Speranza wrote:

    His mouth and face in general looks like a twisted prune.

    It’s all the salt he eats. Despite his avid efforts to ban salt for other people, Bloomberg is famous for dumping so much salt on his food that he risks mouthburn.


  42. 43 | February 15, 2013 9:26 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Tanker:

    Ron Paul’s fans are doing that and it helps Rand.

    As a Kentuckian (and a rational thinker) I was very skeptical of Rand Paul because of his father, but he’s been a pleasant surprise, as I’ve noted before. The farther gets from Ron, the better.


  43. 44 | February 15, 2013 9:29 am

    @ Speranza:

    Nasty people.


  44. RIX
    45 | February 15, 2013 9:32 am

    The cowboy’s name was Jingo
    And he heard that there was trouble
    So in a blaze of glory
    He rode out of the west.
    Little Tin God, Don Henley

    Think that maybe Django was cribbed from this?


  45. 46 | February 15, 2013 9:32 am

    citizen_q wrote:

    Plse pardon the typing. I am reduced to typing one handed for a bit. Had hand surgery yesterday.

    Well then, I’ll pardon you for not applauding! :D I hope you’re feeling better soon.

    Yeah, it looks like FX. I’m reminded of thinking at the time that 9/11 looked like a movie…..the effect this has on our concept of reality is an intriguing subject, no?


  46. 47 | February 15, 2013 9:34 am

    @ MacDuff:

    He’s trying to take the Republican Party to a more individualistic based agenda.


  47. 48 | February 15, 2013 9:35 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Speranza:

    Bloomberg is a Fascist.

    “Short man syndrome” in spades (full disclosure, at 5’5″, I’m not short….I’m compact)


  48. RIX
    49 | February 15, 2013 9:38 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    A short video of the Russian meteor strike. Breathtaking!

    Climate change! A meteor has never struck Earth before.
    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.


  49. 50 | February 15, 2013 9:39 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ MacDuff:

    He’s trying to take the Republican Party to a more individualistic based agenda.

    The Republican Party is a natural home for true libertarians (not that wacky, dangerous snake oil that Ron Paul peddles). Buckley oft described himself as a libertarian.


  50. 51 | February 15, 2013 9:42 am

    RIX wrote:

    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.

    I’m gonna get my wife to dress like Betty Rubble- she was hot!


  51. buzzsawmonkey
    52 | February 15, 2013 9:44 am

    RIX wrote:

    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.

    I know an English major who has a Bronte-saurus.


  52. citizen_q
    53 | February 15, 2013 9:44 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    Well then, I’ll pardon you for not applauding! :D I hope you’re feeling better soon.

    i am reminded of the zen koan, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

    Perhaps I will achieve enlightenment? :-)

    MacDuff wrote:

    Yeah, it looks like FX. I’m reminded of thinking at the time that 9/11 looked like a movie…..the effect this has on our concept of reality is an intriguing subject, no?

    I have seen some very good altered video that looked real to my untrained eyes.

    In the footage of the meteorite, I was surprised at the number of dash-cams and videos from cars.


  53. RIX
    54 | February 15, 2013 9:45 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    RIX wrote:

    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.

    I’m gonna get my wife to dress like Betty Rubble- she was hot!

    Yeah, Betty is a smokin hot toon!


  54. 55 | February 15, 2013 9:46 am

    @ mfhorn:

    You’re SOL. Here in SF, styrofoam’s been banned for years. If you have to walk more than a city block with your hot food, you need to eat fast. Hell, your Big Mac will be cold by the time you get it back to your desk…..


  55. RIX
    56 | February 15, 2013 9:46 am

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    RIX wrote:

    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.

    I know an English major who has a Bronte-saurus.

    Literate animal.


  56. buzzsawmonkey
    57 | February 15, 2013 9:47 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    I’m gonna get my wife to dress like Betty Rubble- she was hot!

    Barney Rubble’s brother Steve ran Bedrock’s most famous nightspot, Studio 54 Million BC.


  57. Tanker
    58 | February 15, 2013 9:48 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    Rodan wrote:
    @ Tanker:
    Ron Paul’s fans are doing that and it helps Rand.

    As a Kentuckian (and a rational thinker) I was very skeptical of Rand Paul because of his father, but he’s been a pleasant surprise, as I’ve noted before. The farther gets from Ron, the better.

    As a Kentuckian (by retirement/marriage), I too was skeptical of Rand. Seemed and seems to be to good. As someone that doesn’t place my hopes on man to solve all/any problems, I will keep that skepticism of all politicians. Hope he continues on his current path, but won’t be disappointed if/when he fails to meet my expectations!


  58. citizen_q
    59 | February 15, 2013 9:48 am

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    RIX wrote:
    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.
    I know an English major who has a Bronte-saurus.

    Today I am phalange-saurus!

    /


  59. 60 | February 15, 2013 9:54 am

    @ Tanker:

    Yeah, “trust no one” is pretty good policy with anyone whose prime function is to be convincing.


  60. Speranza
    61 | February 15, 2013 9:57 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Tanker:
    Ron Paul’s fans are doing that and it helps Rand.

    Rand Paul has been a most pleasant surprise.


  61. RIX
    62 | February 15, 2013 9:58 am

    @ citizen_q:
    Gotbthe miseries, huh?


  62. buzzsawmonkey
    63 | February 15, 2013 10:00 am

    Speaking of dinosaurs, we seem to have a Tyranno-Sore-ass-Wrecks in the White House.


  63. RIX
    64 | February 15, 2013 10:02 am

    African-American, Somali(african-african?), black, muslim, can’t keep me victim grievance groups straight on this one to apply lib logic to predetermine who the bad guys and good guys are.
    /
    @ citizen_q:

    Traveling to the Minneapolis area the Somali immigrants seem
    snarky with bad attitude.


  64. 65 | February 15, 2013 10:03 am

    @ MacDuff:
    @ Speranza:

    Rand Paul is Barry Goldwaterite small (l) Libertarian. Not the Far Right Anarchist Jutin Raimondo type.


  65. 66 | February 15, 2013 10:04 am

    @ Tanker:

    Politicians are not saviors, they are humans. If people want a savior, then they need to go to Church.


  66. citizen_q
    67 | February 15, 2013 10:06 am

    @ RIX:
    Yes, for now.

    crapel-tunnel and A1 pulley release on 2 fingers yesterday.


  67. buzzsawmonkey
    68 | February 15, 2013 10:06 am

    RIX wrote:

    Traveling to the Minneapolis area the Somali immigrants seem
    snarky with bad attitude.

    Brought their pirate attitude with them, did they?


  68. Tanker
    69 | February 15, 2013 10:07 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Tanker:
    Politicians are not saviors, they are humans. If people want a savior, then they need to go to Church.

    Just make sure you leave all religious thought out of politics!


  69. 70 | February 15, 2013 10:07 am

    On the styrofoam issue, the stuff CAN be annoying; I just bought a new TV and a stand to put it on and the Styrofoam from the packing was incredible. The damned “peanuts” are especially maddening. I’m not totally unsympathetic to the dilemma the disposal of trash poses for cities nationwide and that dilemma for a city like New York is near unimaginable. I put whatever I can in the recycle bin and generally have more recyclables than trash because it just makes good sense. I put the styrofoam in giant bags but, as the trash and the recyclable go out on the same day, I have no clue what happened to the stuff.

    All that said, passing a damned law every time there’s a problem to be solved is lazy and authoritarian- that’s not what self-rule is about.


  70. buzzsawmonkey
    71 | February 15, 2013 10:09 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    I’m not totally unsympathetic to the dilemma the disposal of trash poses for cities nationwide and that dilemma for a city like New York is near unimaginable.

    It could be worse. It could be Dubai, with no sewer system and a convoy of tanker trucks to haul away the shit.


  71. RIX
    72 | February 15, 2013 10:09 am

    citizen_q wrote:

    @ RIX:
    Yes, for now.

    crapel-tunnel and A1 pulley release on 2 fingers yesterday.

    Hang in there.


  72. 73 | February 15, 2013 10:10 am

    @ Tanker:

    The Obama cult is a religious movement. They really see him as some deity.


  73. 74 | February 15, 2013 10:11 am

    @ MacDuff:

    I hate packing peanuts. Bring back excelsior! You can use it for kindling at a campfire!

    Of course, I like bubble wrap. Because therapy’s expensive, and bubble wrap is cheap.


  74. RIX
    75 | February 15, 2013 10:11 am

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    RIX wrote:

    Traveling to the Minneapolis area the Somali immigrants seem
    snarky with bad attitude.

    Brought their pirate attitude with them, did they?

    A lot of them are cabbies & hotel workers.
    I get the distinct impression that they are
    not very fond of us.
    Ellison is their Congresman.


  75. Tanker
    76 | February 15, 2013 10:12 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    On the styrofoam issue, the stuff CAN be annoying; I just bought a new TV and a stand to put it on and the Styrofoam from the packing was incredible. The damned “peanuts” are especially maddening. I’m not totally unsympathetic to the dilemma the disposal of trash poses for cities nationwide and that dilemma for a city like New York is near unimaginable. I put whatever I can in the recycle bin and generally have more recyclables than trash because it just makes good sense. I put the styrofoam in giant bags but, as the trash and the recyclable go out on the same day, I have no clue what happened to the stuff.
    All that said, passing a damned law every time there’s a problem to be solved is lazy and authoritarian- that’s not what self-rule is about.

    You can always burn it, just make sure you have approved smoke scrubbers on your burn barrel!


  76. 77 | February 15, 2013 10:12 am

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    And I’d be the one stuck downwind from the truck in my Mercedes from Abdul’s Rent a Wreck.


  77. 78 | February 15, 2013 10:13 am

    Just a heads up, we have a show Sunday.


  78. 79 | February 15, 2013 10:14 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    RIX wrote:

    I have to remember to feed my dinosaur today.

    I’m gonna get my wife to dress like Betty Rubble- she was hot!

    The cartoon character yes…but not the actress who played her…EEEEWWWWWW!


  79. 80 | February 15, 2013 10:16 am

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Importing pirates from the Horn of Africa. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?


  80. citizen_q
    81 | February 15, 2013 10:16 am

    RIX wrote:

    African-American, Somali(african-african?), black, muslim, can’t keep me victim grievance groups straight on this one to apply lib logic to predetermine who the bad guys and good guys are.
    /
    @ citizen_q:

    Traveling to the Minneapolis area the Somali immigrants seem
    snarky with bad attitude.

    They seem to be in news often enough expecting us to conform to them. Thinking problems with somali taxi drivers, meat packers…. for example

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/17/us-muslims-taxis-idUSN1633289220070417

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,421471,00.html


  81. citizen_q
    82 | February 15, 2013 10:17 am

    @ RIX:
    thanks! I will

    bbib


  82. 83 | February 15, 2013 10:17 am

    @ RIX:

    Non-citizens aren’t supposed to vote. I know that is kind of a quaint and silly notion in these times…


  83. lobo91
    84 | February 15, 2013 10:24 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ RIX:
    Non-citizens aren’t supposed to vote. I know that is kind of a quaint and silly notion in these times…

    They’re just “out of status” citizens…
    //


  84. RIX
    85 | February 15, 2013 10:24 am

    @ citizen_q:
    The Somalis make no attempt to assimilate. They want the host
    country to assimilate them, with very little if any reciprocity.


  85. RIX
    86 | February 15, 2013 10:26 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ RIX:

    Non-citizens aren’t supposed to vote. I know that is kind of a quaint and silly notion in these times…

    Hey, they’re just out of status Americans./


  86. Tanker
    87 | February 15, 2013 10:29 am

    RIX wrote:

    @ citizen_q:
    The Somalis make no attempt to assimilate. They want the host
    country to assimilate them, with very little if any reciprocity.

    And every time an accommodation is made for these savages, our assimilation to their live style becomes closer!


  87. Moe Katz
    88 | February 15, 2013 10:32 am

    I loathe take-out coffee in styrofoam cups, in fact I never bought coffee from Dunkin Donuts for that exact reason. I understand they’ve switched to cardboard now.

    Do you folks manage to find a reactionary position on every god damn issue that comes up in the media? It must be really tiring.


  88. 89 | February 15, 2013 10:33 am

    @ Tanker:

    It i sall part of Obama’s Fundamental transformation of the United States into a Third World country. We’re importing savages because our native savages (the ones who make the Chicago murder rate such an envy of the world) aren’t savage enough


  89. 90 | February 15, 2013 10:34 am

    @ RIX:

    You can thank the Islamic lobby for this. For all the talk of this Jewish lobby, the truth is any fair observation would conclude the Muzzies are the ones with influence in our government.


  90. lobo91
    91 | February 15, 2013 10:35 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Then you should be thrilled, since 8 million people are now forced to bow to your preferences.


  91. RIX
    92 | February 15, 2013 10:36 am

    And every time an accommodation is made for these savages, our assimilation to their live style becomes closer!
    @ Tanker:

    Islamic supremacy.


  92. Moe Katz
    93 | February 15, 2013 10:37 am

    @ lobo91:
    Do you lose your membership in the redneck club if you ever take a pro-environment position on any bloody thing at all?


  93. 94 | February 15, 2013 10:37 am

    @ Iron Fist:

    To be fair, this happened before Obama. There’s a book I read called the Arab Lobby that explains it all. I will never forgive Bush after 9/11, he had gave preferences in the Immigration Visa Lottery to Islamic countries.

    This is a huge bi-partisan problem. The infiltration of Islamic interests is very deep in our Federal government.


  94. RIX
    95 | February 15, 2013 10:38 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ RIX:

    You can thank the Islamic lobby for this. For all the talk of this Jewish lobby, the truth is any fair observation would conclude the Muzzies are the ones with influence in our government.

    They are aggressive & a grievance group.
    Because they are anti Western Liberals can’t resist them.


  95. Tanker
    96 | February 15, 2013 10:39 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    I loathe take-out coffee in styrofoam cups, in fact I never bought coffee from Dunkin Donuts for that exact reason. I understand they’ve switched to cardboard now.
    Do you folks manage to find a reactionary position on every god damn issue that comes up in the media? It must be really tiring.

    Dude, browsers have options. If unhappy here, I could give some ideas as to where you might feel more at home! Thou shouldn’t use some language in my opinion, but to each his own!


  96. 97 | February 15, 2013 10:39 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Why should the government ban the product? If there is a better product than Styrofoam, then market forces will replace Styrofoam. I can’t speak for others, but my beef with Bloomberg is his imposing of his views on others.


  97. lobo91
    98 | February 15, 2013 10:40 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Do you lose your membership in the redneck club if you ever take a pro-environment position on any bloody thing at all?

    How cute.

    FOAD, troll


  98. 99 | February 15, 2013 10:41 am

    @ Rodan:

    Fascism is great as long as it is done “for the environment”. You should have figured that out by now, you redneck!


  99. lobo91
    100 | February 15, 2013 10:42 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:

    Why should the government ban the product? If there is a better product than Styrofoam, then market forces will replace Styrofoam. I can’t speak for others, but my beef with Bloomberg is his imposing of his views on others.

    Obviously, anyone who believes in the free market is a “redneck.”


  100. 101 | February 15, 2013 10:43 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Rodan:
    Fascism is great as long as it is done “for the environment”. You should have figured that out by now, you redneck!

    Yes, I am a redneck because I do not believe in the government banning a product!

    Opposing Fascism makes me a Redneck!

    :lol:


  101. Moe Katz
    102 | February 15, 2013 10:43 am

    Tanker wrote:

    f unhappy here, I could give some ideas as to where you might feel more at home!

    Well, sometimes I get tired of watching my collection of All In the Family reruns and I go looking for Archie clones on the internet….


  102. 103 | February 15, 2013 10:43 am

    @ lobo91:

    Yes, we are all Red Necks now!

    :lol:


  103. 104 | February 15, 2013 10:43 am

    @ lobo91:

    Indeed. I’m sure his sanctimonious condescending ass would be happier elsewhere.


  104. lobo91
    105 | February 15, 2013 10:44 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Rodan:

    Fascism is great as long as it is done “for the environment”. You should have figured that out by now, you redneck!

    Or if it’s “for the children.”


  105. 106 | February 15, 2013 10:44 am

    Time to GAZE, folks.


  106. Moe Katz
    107 | February 15, 2013 10:45 am

    @ lobo91:
    If environmental protection was left entirely to the free market the continent would be uninhabitable. As CW likes to say, corporations are amoral. Some things require the government to set rules, and the environment is one of them.


  107. 108 | February 15, 2013 10:46 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Opposing the government banning a product makes a person reactionary? That is ludicrous and you should know better.


  108. Speranza
    109 | February 15, 2013 10:46 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Why should the government ban the product? If there is a better product than Styrofoam, then market forces will replace Styrofoam. I can’t speak for others, but my beef with Bloomberg is his imposing of his views on others.

    Mine too.


  109. lobo91
    110 | February 15, 2013 10:46 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    If environmental protection was left entirely to the free market the continent would be uninhabitable.

    And the really sad thing is, you actually believe that.


  110. Tanker
    111 | February 15, 2013 10:47 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    Do you lose your membership in the redneck club if you ever take a pro-environment position on any bloody thing at all?

    Continuing to be a first class peckerhead will never get that invite to join the club.


  111. 112 | February 15, 2013 10:48 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Really? Green products tend to do fairly well in the American market as long as there isn’t too much government interference. OTOH, you get too much government interference and you get Solyndra. There was never a product there to sell, but there was a lot of crony money for them to scam off the American taxpayer.


  112. Moe Katz
    113 | February 15, 2013 10:48 am

    lobo91 wrote:

    And the really sad thing is, you actually believe that.

    Of course. Corporate actors are governed only by shareholder value. Someone has to make the rules the game is played by.


  113. Speranza
    114 | February 15, 2013 10:48 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ lobo91:
    If environmental protection was left entirely to the free market the continent would be uninhabitable. As CW likes to say, corporations are amoral. Some things require the government to set rules, and the environment is one of them.

    I live in NYC. If Nanny Bloomberg had his way he would tell you when to get up in the morning, when to go to the bathroom, what to eat for lunch, etc. He wanted hospitals to hide milk so mothers would be forced to breast feed their new borns.


  114. lobo91
    115 | February 15, 2013 10:50 am

    @ Iron Fist:

    The newest generation of airliners were designed specifically with fuel efficiency in mind.

    Was it because the government made them do it?

    No. It was because the airlines who buy them wanted to spend less money on fuel.


  115. 116 | February 15, 2013 10:50 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    How do you know the Government’s intentions are for the environment, or just a protect to get more control?


  116. 117 | February 15, 2013 10:50 am

    @ Iron Fist:

    Prohibition never works!


  117. 118 | February 15, 2013 10:51 am

    @ Speranza:

    You are a reactionary redneck!


  118. Speranza
    119 | February 15, 2013 10:51 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    You are a reactionary redneck!

    I am neither a reactionary nor a redneck.


  119. 120 | February 15, 2013 10:53 am

    @ Speranza:

    I have been called many things, Reactionary Redneck is a new one.


  120. Tanker
    121 | February 15, 2013 10:54 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    You are a reactionary redneck!

    When did being a redneck become a bad thing around here. I’m hurt I tell you…just hurt!


  121. 122 | February 15, 2013 10:54 am

    “Rednecks” go hunting and fishing. And a group more seriously concerned with the environment you will never find. “Rednecks” buy hunting and fishing licenses that fund a vast percentage of the actual environmental preservation work done in this country.

    Moe, sometimes you can be a real idiot. The subject was not about whether styrofoam was good or bad, it was about autocratic rule.

    Maybe you should get some coffee before posting, ot at least stop drinking so early if you can’t handle it.


  122. Moe Katz
    123 | February 15, 2013 10:55 am

    Speranza wrote:

    He wanted hospitals to hide milk so mothers would be forced to breast feed their new borns.

    Now that sounds a bit manipulative. But a styrofoam ban? I can’t get bent out of shape about that.


  123. buzzsawmonkey
    124 | February 15, 2013 10:55 am

    “The Problem With the World Today, It’s Plain to See—is Coffee in a Cardboard Cup.”

    People have been bitching about takeout containers since forever.


  124. buzzsawmonkey
    125 | February 15, 2013 10:56 am

    Isn’t Red Neck that conservative enclave on Long Island?


  125. 126 | February 15, 2013 10:57 am

    @ Rodan:

    Of course, no one talks about the environmental tyranny. Ask the farmers of California’s San Joaquin, Central and Imperial valleys about their lack of water for crops due to the Sierra Club’s hysterical protection of tne non-indigenous snail darter. Or the couple that was overly fined by the EPA for destroying what was essentially a mud puddle in improving their land because the EPA deemed it “wet lands” and denied them due process.


  126. Moe Katz
    127 | February 15, 2013 10:58 am

    Rodan wrote:

    How do you know the Government’s intentions are for the environment, or just a protect to get more control?

    Rodan, with all due respect, that’s crazy paranoia.


  127. 128 | February 15, 2013 10:58 am

    @ Tanker:

    :lol:

    I never knew being opposed to government micromanagement makes somebody a redneck.


  128. 129 | February 15, 2013 11:00 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Paranoia? Does Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Mao’s China, Castro Cuba and Chavez’s Venezuela ring a bell? You do not know much about Bloomberg. He’s a Fascist and seeks to create a nanny state. I believe in Individualism which has led me to but heads with others on the Right.

    Its a slippery slope once government dictates what you can buy and eat.


  129. huckfunn
    130 | February 15, 2013 11:00 am

    We need some redneck music.


  130. 131 | February 15, 2013 11:00 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Yes, you are right, because Totalitarians who want to tell you how much salt you can eat and how much sweet soda you can drink would never go for an outright power grab… :roll:


  131. 132 | February 15, 2013 11:01 am

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Yes, next to Little Neck!

    :lol:


  132. buzzsawmonkey
    133 | February 15, 2013 11:01 am

    I find it amusing to see people waking up to “Moe Katz”‘s troll status.

    I have yet to find an exception to the rule that someone who adopts a stereotypically Jewish-sounding screen nic will display his/her trollish tendencies, usually sooner rather than later.


  133. 134 | February 15, 2013 11:02 am

    @ Iron Fist:

    I’m seriously LOVIN’ this:

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/02/15/gun-manufacturer-cancels-all-orders-from-ny-law-enforcement-over-new-anti-gun-law/#disqus_thread

    This is gonna hurt -- York is one of the best at adaption of weapons for law enforcement.


  134. Moe Katz
    135 | February 15, 2013 11:02 am

    @ Speranza:
    What set me off here is that a styrofoam ban is such an innocuous thing. Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?


  135. 136 | February 15, 2013 11:03 am

    @ huckfunn:

    We are all rednecks now!

    :lol:


  136. Moe Katz
    137 | February 15, 2013 11:04 am

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    You would know what I’m about if you weren’t so wrapped up in yourself. Not much of a buzzsaw when challenged, mostly monkey. A screaming, upset monkey that throws a lot of poo.


  137. 138 | February 15, 2013 11:04 am

    @ Iron Fist:

    prohibition works so well!
    ////


  138. buzzsawmonkey
    139 | February 15, 2013 11:05 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    You would know what I’m about

    Oh, I do. Believe me, I do; have done for a long time.


  139. 140 | February 15, 2013 11:06 am

    @ Carolina Girl:

    Really, what do police need with Weapons of War? Not bein entirely facetious there. Why should cops get full-auto weapons if civillians can’t? A cop can always call backup, a civillian often cannot.


  140. Tanker
    141 | February 15, 2013 11:07 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Tanker:

    I never knew being opposed to government micromanagement makes somebody a redneck.

    Becoming a redneck can be achieved. You is or you aint! We tend to like it that way! Nothing wrong with not being one though.

    Cowboy and Saturday night fever come to mind! Some are, some aren’t!


  141. 142 | February 15, 2013 11:07 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?

    Care to tell us which freedoms “don’t matter”? I seem to recall you’re pretty Fuddish on the 2nd Amendment, so why don’t you just trot out your list?


  142. buzzsawmonkey
    143 | February 15, 2013 11:07 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    Why should cops get full-auto weapons if civillians can’t?

    Because they don’t know how to drive standard shift…


  143. Moe Katz
    144 | February 15, 2013 11:08 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Paranoia? Does Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Mao’s China, Castro Cuba and Chavez’s Venezuela ring a bell? You do not know much about Bloomberg. He’s a Fascist and seeks to create a nanny state. I believe in Individualism which has led me to but heads with others on the Right.
    Its a slippery slope once government dictates what you can buy and eat.

    It’s always a slippery slope. It’s a slippery slope that you can’t decide each morning what side of the road to drive on, that is imposed on you by the evil, fascist state. For god’s sakes, societies have the right to make rules.


  144. Calo
    145 | February 15, 2013 11:08 am

    @ Moe Katz:
    Good Morning Moe.

    I was just fixin’ to rumble round my frig for lunch before i rode my horse off to work.
    And, I noticed my Chinese food is in plastic containers, not styrofoam. I’m just curious if that is an acceptable container or should I just shovel the Kung Pao chicken into my here saddle sack.

    And, what is your definition of a redneck, I’m curious.


  145. Guggi
    146 | February 15, 2013 11:08 am

    Organic food production and sales work fine without subsidies. Green energy not so much although they get subsidies since more than 25 years.


  146. buzzsawmonkey
    147 | February 15, 2013 11:09 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    Really, what do police need with Weapons of War?

    So that there can be more Chris Dorners, of course.

    Nobody but police should have weapons, because they’re trained to use them! But the LAPD is an eeeeevil fascist organization, which must be fought with lethal weapons! Or something.


  147. Tanker
    148 | February 15, 2013 11:09 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    You would know what I’m about if you weren’t so wrapped up in yourself. Not much of a buzzsaw when challenged, mostly monkey. A screaming, upset monkey that throws a lot of poo.

    Now you’ve done it…noone messes with the buzz when a redneck is around. FOAD time for you buddy!


  148. 149 | February 15, 2013 11:10 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    societies have the right to make rules.

    Its not society making the rules. It’s a Fascist jerk imposing his agenda on the market place.

    Was this out up to vote? Nope, so it was not society that is pushing this.


  149. 150 | February 15, 2013 11:10 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    In America, though, there are strict limits on the kind of rules that Society can make. It is part of being a Constitutional Republic. Where in the Constitution is Bloomberg given the authority to regulate styrofoam? Just because he says it is for the environment is not sufficient authority.


  150. Moe Katz
    151 | February 15, 2013 11:10 am

    Mike C. wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?
    Care to tell us which freedoms “don’t matter”? I seem to recall you’re pretty Fuddish on the 2nd Amendment, so why don’t you just trot out your list?

    I just don’t understand you people. It’s such a different mindset. The sacred right to buy takeout food in styrofoam containers. Give me styrofoam or give me death. It’s absurd to me.


  151. buzzsawmonkey
    152 | February 15, 2013 11:11 am

    @ Tanker:

    Really, Tanker, I appreciate it. But he’s not worth your time.


  152. 153 | February 15, 2013 11:11 am

    @ Tanker:

    Moe Katz has determined that anyone opposing a Styrofoam ban is a Redneck!

    :lol:


  153. Moe Katz
    154 | February 15, 2013 11:12 am

    Tanker wrote:

    Now you’ve done it…noone messes with the buzz when a redneck is around. FOAD time for you buddy!

    I’m not terribly impressed with him, but I doubt he needs your pathetic support.


  154. 155 | February 15, 2013 11:12 am

    I’m one o’ them college-edumacated, semi-urbane kinda rednecks. I’ll follow a classical CD with some bluegrass. I prefer a fine scotch, but I’ll gladly drink cheap beer, if that’s what you got. I don’t hunt, but I’ll gladly join in shooting up all your ammo.


  155. 156 | February 15, 2013 11:13 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    You don’t get the concept of limited government, do you? YOu think that because you want the government to do something, that is all the authority it needs to do it. Mussolini felt the same way.


  156. 157 | February 15, 2013 11:13 am

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    I seem to remember a 44-minute shootout in downtown L.A. not too long ago where the police were so outgunned by the perps that they needed to go to a local gun dealer and commandeer weapons so that their firepower would be equal to that which they were facing.

    Oh, and the guns the perps had? Illegal in California. And yet they had them. My, my, my…..


  157. Moe Katz
    158 | February 15, 2013 11:14 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    Where in the Constitution is Bloomberg given the authority to regulate styrofoam?

    Where in the Constitution is government given the right to set highway speed limits?


  158. Calo
    159 | February 15, 2013 11:16 am

    @ Moe Katz:
    The Feds don’t set speed limits, Moe.


  159. Moe Katz
    160 | February 15, 2013 11:17 am

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Moe Katz:
    You don’t get the concept of limited government, do you? YOu think that because you want the government to do something, that is all the authority it needs to do it. Mussolini felt the same way.

    I think it’s great for conservatives to act as a brake against a runaway nanny state, but I don’t get hysterical about the right to create unnecessary landfill.


  160. 161 | February 15, 2013 11:17 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    If one wants to see where something like this proposed “styrofoam ban” eventually leads, just look at California. Like I said above, I can understand the frustration with the crap, but just because something’s a pain in the ass doesn’t mean we have to legislate the damned thing out of existence. Maybe a creative solution would be preferable and more palatable to all concerned than flexing authoritative muscle, but Bloomberg doesn’t seem to have a creative bone in his body.

    As for the reactionary redneck shit, that’s pretty uncalled-for. The point of the conversation wasn’t styrofoam per se, but rather another example of Bloomberg’s heavy handed and sanctimonious approach to everything.


  161. Calo
    162 | February 15, 2013 11:18 am

    @ Calo:
    Really, outta the door now.

    Me and Besty, my horse, will be back later.


  162. buzzsawmonkey
    163 | February 15, 2013 11:19 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    unnecessary landfill

    Landfill is landfill. Where do you, or anyone else, get off declaring what is or is not “necessary” for the entire society, or even a portion of it?


  163. Tanker
    164 | February 15, 2013 11:19 am

    Rodan wrote:

    @ Tanker:
    Moe Katz has determined that anyone opposing a Styrofoam ban is a Redneck!

    I suspect if he really actually meet a true redneck, he’d shit his pants. For the record most rednecks would whip your ass if they caught you throwing your styrofoam cup out on his land! As stated above, they tend to be very protective of their hunting areas! No wasting meat is tolerated either!


  164. 165 | February 15, 2013 11:19 am

    @ Moe Katz:
    It’s the nibbling away at rights writ small. The trouble is that these small nibbles eventually add up to a huge bite. It all is in the name of some nebulous ideal that is the culprit.


  165. Moe Katz
    166 | February 15, 2013 11:21 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    As for the reactionary redneck shit, that’s pretty uncalled-for.

    Yeah, but the tiresome predictability of this group always coming down on the reactionary side of everything got to me this morning.


  166. Moe Katz
    167 | February 15, 2013 11:23 am

    Calo wrote:

    The Feds don’t set speed limits, Moe.

    Aww, if you’re going to get that picky, I’m going to point out the 55mph speed limit of 1974. So the FED CAN act in this sphere.


  167. citizen_q
    168 | February 15, 2013 11:26 am

    @ Carolina Girl:
    my understanding is that several mfgrs are doing this, Olympic, LaRue are a couple that were mentioned in my local shooters forum.


  168. 169 | February 15, 2013 11:26 am

    @ Moe Katz:

    You obviously do not read my posts. Have you not seen threads where I catch hell because I break with Conservative Orthodoxy?

    read this thread and tell me if its reactionary. Look at the comments and tell me we are reactionary.

    Look at the latest headline, I am going to catch hell for it because the groups I mentioned are viewed as Conservative heroes. You want to say that post is reactionary?


  169. Tanker
    170 | February 15, 2013 11:27 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Tanker wrote:
    Now you’ve done it…noone messes with the buzz when a redneck is around. FOAD time for you buddy!
    I’m not terribly impressed with him, but I doubt he needs your pathetic support.

    Really you need to get out of the city and smell some fresh air.


  170. huckfunn
    171 | February 15, 2013 11:29 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    I think it’s great for conservatives to act as a brake against a runaway nanny state

    Runaway nanny state is exactly what we have in New York, California and Illinois. Burdensome taxes and regulations are driving people out of those states. Obama, Cuomo and Doomberg are nanny-statists and seek to control every aspect and every choice of every citizen’s personal life. A couple of years ago Obama famously congratulated the EPA saying that he was very proud that “the EPA now touches every citizen every day”. I don’t want to be touched by the EPA every day in every choice.


  171. Moe Katz
    172 | February 15, 2013 11:30 am

    @ Rodan:
    Rodan, I’m outta here. I’ll have a look at those links later and get back to you.


  172. 173 | February 15, 2013 11:34 am

    Hmm, Madison WI seems to be recycling a lot of styrofoam. Yeah, they’re an ultra-liberal bastion, but they’re employing a creative solution instead of an outright ban.

    Maybe Bloomberg could call Madison’s mayor for some tips on leadership…..


  173. buzzsawmonkey
    174 | February 15, 2013 11:38 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    the tiresome predictability of this group

    Yet you keep coming back.


  174. Tanker
    175 | February 15, 2013 11:39 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    Hmm, Madison WI seems to be recycling a lot of styrofoam. Yeah, they’re an ultra-liberal bastion, but they’re employing a creative solution instead of an outright ban.
    Maybe Bloomberg could call Madison’s mayor for some tips on leadership…..

    Solutions to problems, now there’s a novel idea!


  175. buzzsawmonkey
    176 | February 15, 2013 11:41 am

    MacDuff wrote:

    Maybe Bloomberg could call Madison’s mayor for some tips on leadership…..

    Bloomberg bribed his way into an additional mayoral term. He don’t need no stinkin’ leadership.


  176. Speranza
    177 | February 15, 2013 12:04 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    @ Speranza:
    What set me off here is that a styrofoam ban is such an innocuous thing. Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?

    It never stops with Bloomberg. He is on a constant jihad of nanny statism.


  177. Speranza
    178 | February 15, 2013 12:09 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    I seem to remember a 44-minute shootout in downtown L.A. not too long ago where the police were so outgunned by the perps that they needed to go to a local gun dealer and commandeer weapons so that their firepower would be equal to that which they were facing.
    Oh, and the guns the perps had? Illegal in California. And yet they had them. My, my, my…..

    The Bank of America robbery in 1997.


  178. 179 | February 15, 2013 12:11 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?

    Moe’s gone now, but if that sentence doesn’t encapsulate the attitude that’s emboldening these people, I don’t know what does. I didn’t see it until your reply, above.


  179. buzzsawmonkey
    180 | February 15, 2013 12:28 pm

    I so look forward to being able to sing,

    Nanny nanny
    Nanny Bloomberg
    Hey hey
    Goodbye!


  180. 181 | February 15, 2013 12:29 pm

    @ MacDuff:

    There’s something very c-h-i-l-l-i-n-g about the statement “any freedom that matters.”


  181. lobo91
    182 | February 15, 2013 12:35 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    @ MacDuff:

    There’s something very c-h-i-l-l-i-n-g about the statement “any freedom that matters.”

    Sounds like something Nancy Pelosi would say


  182. Moe Katz
    183 | February 15, 2013 1:08 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Yet you keep coming back.

    Because some people here are worth talking to. You, I just find vexatious at best.


  183. huckfunn
    184 | February 15, 2013 1:12 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    @ MacDuff:

    There’s something very c-h-i-l-l-i-n-g about the statement “any freedom that matters.”

    lobo91 wrote:

    Sounds like something Nancy Pelosi would say

    Or as Shrill put it “What difference does it make?”


  184. Moe Katz
    185 | February 15, 2013 1:13 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    It never stops with Bloomberg. He is on a constant jihad of nanny statism.

    Okay, I see your point. In that context, the styrofoam thing was just another straw on the camel’s back. Sorry if I took you to task unfairly.


  185. waldensianspirit
  186. Moe Katz
    187 | February 15, 2013 1:22 pm

    Carolina Girl wrote:

    There’s something very c-h-i-l-l-i-n-g about the statement “any freedom that matters.”

    Not really. We give up some freedom to live in a civilized society -- we don’t live on little desert islands where we can do anything we please. Kids usually figure that out between ages 2 and 3. Farming and food production are pretty fundamental rights, you’d agree? But most municipalities won’t let you keep pigs and chickens in your back yard. If you want to do that, you need to live in the country. Do you feel enslaved because you can’t keep livestock at home?


  187. Moe Katz
    188 | February 15, 2013 1:34 pm

    MacDuff wrote:

    Moe’s gone now, but if that sentence doesn’t encapsulate the attitude that’s emboldening these people, I don’t know what does. I didn’t see it until your reply, above.

    Mac, freedom IS NOT absolute. We give up all sorts of freedoms in order to belong to an organized society. This idea of absolute freedom is ideological, and it’s not consistent with reality.


  188. lobo91
    189 | February 15, 2013 2:12 pm

    @ Moe Katz:

    Do you feel enslaved because you can’t keep livestock at home?

    Since that’s been the case in most urban areas for many decades, it’s a pretty silly analogy.

    What if your city council decides one day that dogs are now banned, because some people are alergic to them? Would you consider that a “reasonable” restriction?

    And if not, why not? Unless you’re blind, you don’t “need” a dog, right?


  189. taxfreekiller
    190 | February 15, 2013 2:33 pm

    http://www.wattsupwiththat.com

    CO2 fraud, supported by commie Democrats who vote for the EPA to tell you when and how to take a shit.

    Soon they would demand you eat shit but for conservatives who will never bide commie total rule shit like you would lay down for.

    If not for conservatives you would be eating Russian Commie Shit already.

    Liberals and Democrats get to do the silly shit they do only because we conservatives man the walls and give our lives in defence of the Constitution and Freedom.

    Commie Liberal Democrats not so much.@ Moe Katz:


  190. buzzsawmonkey
    191 | February 15, 2013 2:43 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    You, I just find vexatious at best.

    Good. Bust several guts.


  191. 192 | February 15, 2013 3:44 pm

    Iron Fist wrote:

    @ Rodan:
    Justin Raimondo is a class-A dick. If he dislikes Rand Paul, that is another mark in Paul’s favor.

    Back in 1999 he was fairly reasonable; he did a lot of work in supporting the Serbs. But soon after, he went completely off the rails. Seems to me as though he’s mentally ill.

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    the tiresome predictability of this group
    Yet you keep coming back.

    We get trolls on 1389 Blog too. CzechRebel enjoys messing with their heads.

    Mike C. wrote:

    “Rednecks” go hunting and fishing. And a group more seriously concerned with the environment you will never find. “Rednecks” buy hunting and fishing licenses that fund a vast percentage of the actual environmental preservation work done in this country.
    Moe, sometimes you can be a real idiot. The subject was not about whether styrofoam was good or bad, it was about autocratic rule.
    Maybe you should get some coffee before posting, ot at least stop drinking so early if you can’t handle it.

    Nobody should ever diss anybody on account of the color of his neck!

    I love me some rednecks. Most of my friends are rednecks. Best people on the planet, bar none. I’ve often been called one myself, and consider it an honor.

    I also love me some coffee. Elixir of life!


  192. 193 | February 15, 2013 4:19 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Mac, freedom IS NOT absolute. We give up all sorts of freedoms in order to belong to an organized society. This idea of absolute freedom is ideological, and it’s not consistent with reality.

    Of course it’s not absolute, but neither is it arbitrarily withdrawn without a damned compelling reason.

    This is a product that’s virtually innocuous and has been in use for more than a half a century, to suddenly ban it because of its lack of degradability is absurd. There are all sorts of non degradable materials in landfills including numerous types of plastics and glass, are they next? As I said above, Madison, WI recycles styrofoam, why can’t New York?

    Bloomberg’s answer to every damned challenge that crosses his desk is “ban it”. Call me “reactionary” if you like, but authoritarianism in lieu of creativity in government is more than a little disturbing. And, by the way, you remark “Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?” begs the question who decides which freedom “matters” and which doesn’t?

    It’s not about styrofoam, it’s about freedom that erodes just as does sand on a beach; a handful at a time.


  193. Moe Katz
    194 | February 15, 2013 7:43 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    What if your city council decides one day that dogs are now banned, because some people are alergic to them? Would you consider that a “reasonable” restriction?

    You call MY example farfetched and come back with this? Dogs are considered family members in many households, and the consensus is they do more good than harm, so a dog ban would be very unpopular. But, in principle, could a municipal council ban dogs? Sure, though that would only last until the next election, when they got tossed out.


  194. Moe Katz
    195 | February 15, 2013 7:47 pm

    MacDuff wrote:

    It’s not about styrofoam, it’s about freedom that erodes just as does sand on a beach; a handful at a time.

    However, your libertarianism deprives people of a different kind of freedom—the freedom to act in concert by making laws that express shared sentiments. The more individualist you make your system, the less people can act together. So there’s a trade-off.


  195. Moe Katz
    196 | February 15, 2013 7:52 pm

    MacDuff wrote:

    And, by the way, you remark “Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?” begs the question who decides which freedom “matters” and which doesn’t?

    Okay, several people have seized on that. The answer is that freedoms ARE NOT all equally significant. Claiming that they are is just politically loaded rhetoric. The freedom to drive on either side of the road is one that we relinquish without complaint. The freedom to bitch about public policy is one that we defend jealously. All freedoms are not created equal.


  196. 197 | February 15, 2013 10:42 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    MacDuff wrote:

    It’s not about styrofoam, it’s about freedom that erodes just as does sand on a beach; a handful at a time.

    However, your libertarianism deprives people of a different kind of freedom—the freedom to act in concert by making laws that express shared sentiments. The more individualist you make your system, the less people can act together. So there’s a trade-off.

    My libertarianism celebrates people “acting in concert that express shared sentiments”; that’s the essence of self government. Methinks your confusing libertarianism with anarchy. These erosions of liberty, however, aren’t coming from the people, quite the contrary and therein lies my problem.


  197. 198 | February 15, 2013 11:14 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    MacDuff wrote:

    And, by the way, you remark “Is this really an encroachment on any freedom that matters?” begs the question who decides which freedom “matters” and which doesn’t?

    Okay, several people have seized on that. The answer is that freedoms ARE NOT all equally significant. Claiming that they are is just politically loaded rhetoric. The freedom to drive on either side of the road is one that we relinquish without complaint. The freedom to bitch about public policy is one that we defend jealously. All freedoms are not created equal.

    Again, who decides what’s significant and what’s the definition thereof? The answer to that question goes to the heart of the type of society we have. The local, state and federal legal code would likely fill a good sized room and is lot of it is comprised of “insignificant” laws and there are more being added daily. This is death by a thousand cuts and what you call insignificant is damned significant, collectively, and I believe individually as well.


  198. Moe Katz
    199 | February 15, 2013 11:26 pm

    MacDuff wrote:

    My libertarianism celebrates people “acting in concert that express shared sentiments”; that’s the essence of self government. Methinks your confusing libertarianism with anarchy. These erosions of liberty, however, aren’t coming from the people, quite the contrary and therein lies my problem.

    You’re implying that gov’t is something alien and apart from the people, something evil that needs to be opposed. In a democracy, government IS the people, even if it expresses the public will imperfectly. In setting up the gov’t as the bad guy, you ARE engaging in a kind of anarchist thinking.


  199. Moe Katz
    200 | February 15, 2013 11:40 pm

    MacDuff wrote:

    Again, who decides what’s significant and what’s the definition thereof? The answer to that question goes to the heart of the type of society we have. The local, state and federal legal code would likely fill a good sized room and is lot of it is comprised of “insignificant” laws and there are more being added daily. This is death by a thousand cuts and what you call insignificant is damned significant, collectively, and I believe individually as well.

    I guess I look at it differently. The big picture to me is that society is progressing, that the western world is generally evolving toward something better, more humane, and more moral. Sometimes sober minded people, conservatives, are needed to check this process, and to act as a brake when the changes proposed are ill considered and potentially harmful. But, overall, I believe in the progressive advancement of western civilization. Now this means we ARE going to have to put up with a little ‘re-education’ that we don’t like, a little moral hectoring by sanctimonious youth, a little brainwashing by those in positions of power. I’ll squawk about it when I don’t like it, with or without justification. But I do believe this is the tide of history, and we shouldn’t stand against it.


  200. 201 | February 15, 2013 11:54 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    You’re implying that gov’t is something alien and apart from the people, something evil that needs to be opposed. In a democracy, government IS the people, even if it expresses the public will imperfectly. In setting up the gov’t as the bad guy, you ARE engaging in a kind of anarchist thinking.

    I hardly think my views are even slightly anarchist. What happened to (your words) “The freedom to bitch about public policy is one that we defend jealously.” I’m just a believer that less is more when it comes to government or, as it is said “the government that governs least, governs best”. And these are not, by and large, exercises of public will. I doubt if there’s been a groundswell of indignation over styrofoam (what started the protracted discussion), it’s pretty unilateral.

    A little government goes a long way, and we have a lot. Skepticism about government power isn’t paranoid or, God forbid, anarchist. It’s healthy as hell. To much trust in government isn’t.


  201. Moe Katz
    202 | February 15, 2013 11:59 pm

    @ MacDuff:
    Okay. I just don’t feel my personal freedom is threatened when the state passes laws about what kind of takeout containers the fast food industry can use. You know, Canada and the US are both negotiating free trade agreements with the E-U; if you think we’re burdened with regulations NOW, just wait…. LOL!


  202. Calo
    203 | February 16, 2013 12:14 am

    @ Moe Katz:
    The British are coming again, aren’t they?

    Time for a tea party upthread with Dorian.


  203. Moe Katz
    204 | February 16, 2013 12:15 am

    @ Moe Katz:
    And, again, I really believe we are being dragged, kicking and screaming, into a better world. I know this makes me a heretic here, but that’s what I believe.


  204. Moe Katz
    205 | February 16, 2013 12:17 am

    Calo wrote:

    The British are coming again, aren’t they?

    I didn’t even know they were breathing hard!


  205. 206 | February 16, 2013 12:21 am

    Moe Katz wrote:

    MacDuff wrote:

    Again, who decides what’s significant and what’s the definition thereof? The answer to that question goes to the heart of the type of society we have. The local, state and federal legal code would likely fill a good sized room and is lot of it is comprised of “insignificant” laws and there are more being added daily. This is death by a thousand cuts and what you call insignificant is damned significant, collectively, and I believe individually as well.

    I guess I look at it differently. The big picture to me is that society is progressing, that the western world is generally evolving toward something better, more humane, and more moral. Sometimes sober minded people, conservatives, are needed to check this process, and to act as a brake when the changes proposed are ill considered and potentially harmful. But, overall, I believe in the progressive advancement of western civilization. Now this means we ARE going to have to put up with a little ‘re-education’ that we don’t like, a little moral hectoring by sanctimonious youth, a little brainwashing by those in positions of power. I’ll squawk about it when I don’t like it, with or without justification. But I do believe this is the tide of history, and we shouldn’t stand against it.

    Sorry, not only do I not buy a word of that rather bizarre paragraph, it’s disturbing as hell. Really it is. Good God man, for your sake I’ll hope it’s parody.

    That said, It’s clear that we’ll never come to any agreement on this or much of any other subject save, perhaps, our mutual love of ice cream or our dislike of cancer. It’s a futile endeavor, it’s late, and I’m quite fatigued.

    Thank you for a highly spirited, yet civil discussion. As a stroke survivor (please don’t feel compelled to offer a polite comment, life’s good) it’s excellent brain exercise in finding words and constructing sentences. Good therapy tonight, but do not send me a bill. ;)

    Thanks again and have a good evening. We’ll likely speak again.


  206. Moe Katz
    207 | February 16, 2013 12:22 am

    @ MacDuff:
    Goodnight Mac, likewise thanks for the cordial conversation. Be well.


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