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Forty years ago this month – What were Arafat’s rewards for ordering the deaths of American diplomats in Khartoum?

by Speranza ( 128 Comments › )
Filed under Cold War, Fatah, History, Middle East, Sudan and South Sudan, United Nations at March 4th, 2013 - 4:00 pm

As the author states – what Arafat received  for being directly responsible for the March 1973 murder of American diplomats in Khartoum was  “Only fame, fortune, dozens of trips to the White House, and a Nobel Peace Prize.” Henry Kissinger was an amoral man and the U.S.  State Department far from being an adjunct of the Israeli Foreign Ministry is a subsidiary of the House of Saud. Interesting that charge George Curtis  Moore of the American Embassy in Khartoum who was murdered by the Palestnians, was an anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian careerist! The similarities between Khartoum in March 1973 and Benghazi in October 2012 are striking.

by Andrew Wilson

History is sometimes made in the unmaking — with some of the critical facts in an appalling event being hurriedly and knowingly swept under a rug like so many pieces of broken glass. This weekend marks the 40th anniversary of such an event in the making and masking of history.

In the early evening of March 1, 1973 (like today, a Friday), eight gunmen from the Black September Organization — the same terrorist group which had created havoc six months earlier at the 1972 Munich Olympics — stormed the Saudi Arabian embassy in Khartoum where a going-away party was being held for George Curtis Moore, second-ranking officer at the U.S. embassy in the Sudan.

Following an initial burst of gunfire, they took five hostages — a Belgian, a Saudi, a Jordanian, and two Americans — Moore and Cleo Allen Noel, Jr., the newly appointed American ambassador to the Sudan.

Twenty-six hours of intense negotiations followed between the gunmen and Sudanese authorities. The gunmen sent out a long list of provocative demands, which included the freeing from Jordanian captivity of Abu Daoud, a leader of the Black September Organization (BSO); the freeing of Sirhan Sirhan, Robert Kennedy’s killer, from a California prison; the freeing of members of the terrorist Baader-Meinhof gang held in Germany; and the freeing of “Palestinian women in prison in Israel.”

[......]

Later that day, after nightfall, the terrorists executed the three westerners — Noel, Moore, and Guy Eid, chargé d’affaires at the Belgian embassy. They were lined up against a wall in the basement of the embassy and gunned down in a hail of automatic weapons fire. Reportedly, the gunmen shot first for sport — aiming at their feet and legs — before aiming to kill.

Ironically, far from condemning the PLO, Moore held strongly pro-Arab, anti-Israeli views — believing that “the Arabs had legitimate grievances and were, in general, more wronged by Israel than wrong-doing against it.” Arab terrorists have often targeted the most pro-Arab Americans — as witness the recent slaying of Ambassador Christopher Stevens in Benghazi, Libya.

Like the slayings of Stevens and three other Americans on the night of September 11/12, 2012, the assassination of Moore and Ambassador Noel was front-page news in the United States for a week or more.

What was missing then (as in the more recent catastrophe) was an honest account from the U.S. government of what happened.

It was not until the release of the summary portion of a long-classified U.S. State Department document in May 2006 that the real truth emerged. Written soon after the event, this document — entitled “The Seizure of the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum” — reached the unambiguous conclusion:

The Khartoum operation was planned and carried out with the full knowledge and personal approval of Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), and head of Fatah. Fatah representatives based in Khartoum participated in the attack, using a Fatah vehicle to transport the terrorists to the Saudi Arabian Embassy.

Initially, the main objective of the attack appeared to be to secure the release of Fatah / BSO leader Mohammed Awadh (Abu Daoud) from Jordanian captivity. Information acquired subsequently reveals that the Fatah/BSO leaders did not expect Awadh (Daoud) to be freed, and indicates that one of the primary goals of the operation was to strike at the United States because of its efforts to achieve a Middle East peace settlement which many Arabs believe would be inimical to Palestinian interests.

 … The terrorists extended their deadlines three times, but when they became convinced that their demands would not be met and after they reportedly had received orders from Fatah headquarters in Beirut, they killed the two United States officials and the Belgian chargé. Thirty-four hours later, upon receipt of orders from Yasser Arafat in Beirut to surrender, the terrorists released their other hostages unharmed and surrendered to Sudanese authorities.

The Khartoum operation again demonstrated the ability of the BSO to strike where least expected. The open participation of Fatah representatives in Khartoum in the attack provides further evidence of the Fatah / BSO relationship. The emergence of the United States as a primary Fedayeen target indicates a serious threat of further incidents similar to that of Khartoum.

Despite the certain knowledge of his guilt displayed in the long-hidden U.S. State Department document, Arafat went from strength to strength following the murders that he had ordered in Khartoum — and he did so with the tacit support of President Richard Nixon and his National Security Adviser (and soon-to-be Secretary of State) Henry Kissinger. That set the pattern for three decades to come, or until Arafat’s death on Nov. 11, 2004:

With little dissent, the PLO leader was lionized by most of the world media as an Arab “Moses” struggling to lead his people to the promised land. He became a welcome guest in presidential palaces and residences around the world — most especially including the White House. Time magazine called Arafat the Clinton administration’s “Most Frequent Visitor — President Clinton has held more tete-a-tetes with the Palestinian leader than any other world leader during his eight years in office.” Arafat also became a near-billionaire (according to his former finance minister, more than $900 million of western aid money had gone missing) — cited by Forbes magazine as one of the world’s wealthiest leaders.

Neither Nixon (then up to his neck in alligators as a result of the Watergate scandal) nor the ever ambitious and opportunistic Kissinger ever came close to denouncing Arafat for his role in ordering the execution of U.S. diplomats.  [........]

Later on in 1973, as Kissinger became secretary of state as well as national security adviser, he was obviously keen to keep open all channels of communication with the Arab world, including relations with Arafat — both because of the Yom Kipper War and, tied to that, the OPEC oil embargo, which soon caused gas prices in the U.S. to skyrocket and the U.S. to tumble into what was then the worst recession in post-World War II history. As the world’s biggest oil exporter, Saudi Arabia was one of Arafat’s strongest supporters.

Arafat made his first visit to the United States (an event that could not have happened without State Department approval) in November of 1974, and he made the most of it — in terms of thumbing his nose at the U.S.

Wearing a sidearm (or at least an empty holster; stories vary) and accompanied by several of the participants in the Khartoum operation, Arafat made his famous debut at the United Nations in New York on November 13 — using the occasion to denounce Zionism as racism.

[.........]

In May 1974, Palestinian terrorists entered Israel from Lebanon and took over a high school in the town of Maalot, six miles south of border — killing 22 children (mostly 15-year-old girls) with grenades and automatic weapons and injuring many more. Another similar attack a month earlier killed 18 people in the town of Kiryat Shmona.

THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE person who was intimately involved in tracking the events in Khartoum who was outraged by the decades-long cover-up that followed. His name is James J. Welsh and he contacted me after reading a recent article of mine in TAS entitled “Obama Fiddled … While Benghazi burned … and a U.S. election approached.”

[......]  Welsh still seethes with indignation over what happened inside the Nixon administration over that lost weekend of 40 years ago.

In achieving a top security clearance as a result of his knowledge of Arabic and his skill as a communications technician, Welsh served in the U.S. Navy as a foreign language specialist assigned to the National Security Agency (NSA) to intercept and analyze foreign radio transmissions in the Middle East.

From 1969 to 1972 he worked at an intercept site just outside of Nicosia, Cyprus, and from then until 1974 he worked at NSA headquarters at Fort Meade near Washington, D.C. — supporting his old colleagues back in Cyprus and elsewhere in the Middle East.

In a series of interviews lasting over eight hours, Welsh told me this story of what happened between Thursday, Feb. 28 — the day before the takeover of the Saudi Embassy — and Monday, March 4, when different agencies in the U.S. government were just beginning to take stock of Saturday night’s disaster in Khartoum.

This is the first part of his story:

Late in the morning on Thursday, the teletype machine at his office at NSA headquarters clattered with the receipt of a printed message from an old colleague at the listening post in Cyprus.

“This is Mike,” the message said.

“What’s up?” Welsh tapped back in reply.

“I’ve got an intercept of Arafat in Beirut talking to Abu Jihad (a top Black September operative) in Khartoum, and it looks big,” Mike answered, saying that he was able to recognize Arafat’s voice.

As their typed conversation continued, Welsh learned that eight members of BSO — the same number of terrorists who had been dispatched in 1972 to go to Munich — had assembled in Khartoum and were awaiting Arafat’s instructions on when to strike at the target (still unknown to the NSA).

When he had gathered all he could from ‘Mike,’ Welsh tore the paper from the machine and took it to his supervisor. The information was passed immediately through the chain of command at NSA. Before the end of the working day, Welsh and others at the agency sent out a Flash (top priority) message to the U.S. Embassy Khartoum via the State Department, as required by inter-agency protocol, warning the embassy of the imminent danger of an assault from Black September.

Knowing he had the next day off, Welsh went to bed that night feeling that intercepted communication might have come just in time to avert a disaster.

[........] Welsh received an urgent call the next morning telling him to “turn on the television set” — and then get back to the office asap. The television news was all about the capture of the U.S. diplomats in Khartoum by same terrorist organization that had captured and eventually killed 11 members of the Israeli team at the summer Olympics in Munich.

Inexplicably, it turned out that a watch officer at the State Department had downgraded the NSA message to the embassy in Khartoum from the highest urgency to a routine cable. [.......]

On Monday morning, Welsh said, “the buzz at the NSA” was that the agency’s director (Gen. Samuel C. Phillips) had headed over to the State Department “steaming mad” about the department’s failure to do its job in sounding the alarm in a timely fashion.

But upon the general’s return, Welsh and others in the agency were shocked to hear their director had come back from the State Department in a morose and chastened state. Said Welsh: “The word came down that whatever happened to squelch the warning, that issue was over: We’re not going to talk about it anymore.”

When Welsh suggested to a supervisor that it would be worth taking the issue to Congress, he was told that if he (as a naval enlisted man) dared to suggest any such thing again, he would be put out to sea on “a fleet oiler.” Translation: He would lose his top secret clearance and be sent back to the navy doing the most menial of tasks, such as throwing fuel lines from one ship to another.

[........] He thought to himself: “Am I supposed to believe that everything I heard the day before the attack was a total fantasy — and, coincidentally, it all just turned out to be true?” To this day, the tape has never surfaced.

Returning to civilian life a year later, he stayed silent for 27 years. But in seeing Arafat reach something of an apotheosis during Clinton’s administration, he found he no longer hold his tongue.

In interviews with sympathetic segments of the news media (such as the Israeli newspaper Haaretz) and in letters to Congress, Welsh denounced the failure on the part of successive U.S. administrations to acknowledge the truth about Arafat. He told one reporter: [.........]

Today he notes two overriding similarities between the tragic events in Benghazi and Khartoum.

One is the simple fact of a State Department and White House cover-up driven by political considerations and the desire to hide mistakes.

And, in his words, the second is “the whole continuing idea that the Palestinians and Arabs have to be given a pass on everything they do — no matter how bad it is — just because they are such poor victims.”

Read the rest – What did Arafat get for killing U.S. diplomats?

 

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128 Responses to “Forty years ago this month – What were Arafat’s rewards for ordering the deaths of American diplomats in Khartoum?”
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  1. 1 | March 4, 2013 4:46 pm

    It is interesting to watch how things shake out.

    The State Department represents the American political class’s consensus, and is very much aligned with the European political class as well as with the Saudis. The Muslim Brotherhood are uneasily aligned with the Saudis, and al-Qaeda with the Bro’s.

    Against them, are aligned Iran and their provincial government in Syria. Russia. Fascist parties in southern Europe.

    Seems to me that the main choices available for most people in the world are liberal fascism and … the purer stuff. Add to this that liberal fascism is quickly proving to be an economic failure and, well, it’s too early to start drinking.


  2. Speranza
    2 | March 4, 2013 5:06 pm

    @ Zimriel
    Chuck Hagel thinks that the State Department is an adjunct of the Israeli Foreign Ministry.


  3. eaglesoars
    3 | March 4, 2013 5:15 pm

    Inexplicably, it turned out that a watch officer at the State Department had downgraded the NSA message to the embassy in Khartoum from the highest urgency to a routine cable

    inexplicably my ass.

    And Benghazi was about a movie that no one ever saw.


  4. lobo91
    4 | March 4, 2013 5:19 pm

    @ eaglesoars:

    And the Muslim Brotherhood cares about “human rights”…


  5. yenta-fada
    5 | March 4, 2013 5:20 pm

    To paraphrase Ayn Rand; “You can evade reality all you want. What you cannot do is evade the consequences of evading reality.”


  6. Fritz Katz
    6 | March 4, 2013 5:28 pm

    Why have comments been turned off in the headline thread?: “Porky Pig aka Jeb Bush not ruling out running in 2016″ — I have a few choice words I’d like to say about that.


  7. Speranza
    7 | March 4, 2013 5:31 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Inexplicably, it turned out that a watch officer at the State Department had downgraded the NSA message to the embassy in Khartoum from the highest urgency to a routine cable

    inexplicably my ass.
    And Benghazi was about a movie that no one ever saw.

    I hate Henry Kissinger.


  8. Speranza
    8 | March 4, 2013 5:31 pm

    Fritz Katz wrote:

    Why have comments been turned off in the headline thread?: “Porky Pig aka Jeb Bush not ruling out running in 2016″ — I have a few choice words I’d like to say about that.

    I noticed that. I think it was by accident. I will see what I can do about it.


  9. yenta-fada
    9 | March 4, 2013 5:33 pm

    Part of an old post by Hugh Fitzgerald at Jihad Watch. Excellent summary.

    And then came the oil wealth, discovered by Westerners, produced by Westerners, and paid for by Westerners, which since 1973 alone has given the Arab and Muslim states of OPEC ten trillion dollars. They have wasted much of it, in yachts and private 747s and every imaginable vice, and have failed to create — how can they, given inshallah-fatalism? — modern economies, but have managed to build palaces and fantasy-lands (including that grotesque hyper-Las-Vegas known as Dubai, where both Iranian and Arab money compete). And of course they have become by far the biggest arms-buyers on the planet, spending hundreds of billions over the past three decades, and then doing one other little thing: spreading Islam, pushing Islam, paying for mosques, madrasas, campaigns of Da’wa, and armies of Western hirelings: diplomats, journalists, former intelligence agents, lawyers to bring suits or defend Muslim clients, academics to make sure that in colleges and universities the Muslim view of Islam is the only view allowed, throttling all attempts to discuss the texts and tenets and attitudes of Islam soberly, without fear or sentimentality. These are all devoted to protecting and promoting Islam or the image of Saudi Arabia and other countries doing Allah’s work. Saudi Arabia alone has been estimated to have spent $100 billion on these efforts. Then add in the Emirates, Kuwait, Libya, Iran, and Qatar — the home of Al-Jazeera, spreading its anti-American, anti-Infidel venom, as well as to an American base that is there only because Qatar, like Kuwait, wants American protection from local bullies such as Iran, a revived Iraq, and even Saudi Arabia itself.

    Islamic terrorism and other forms of “radical behavior” come from Islam itself. They come from the texts and the tenets and the attitudes. They come from the rage against Infidels, who are responsible for everything bad in the world, and above all, everything that is not right with Muslims anywhere. Are the leaders of Egypt and Saudi Arabia corrupt? Yes. Blame the Infidels, who “support them.” Are the Muslims in Western lands not being allowed, quite at the pace they would wish, to have their every demand for Islam-friendly sites, for prayer rooms in schools and footbaths in public places, for changes in the way people are allowed to dress, for an end to mixed-sex public pools or special Muslim-women-only and Muslim-men-only days, for this and for that, and for that and for this? Then they will demand them all the more insistently, in order that the Infidels will by degrees give in, thinking this or that accommodation is of no great significance — when it is the accommodation itself to Muslim demands that is the achievement. That accommodation is what is changing the face of Infidel nation-states, and weakening the resolve of their peoples to remain what they are and not to yield. It is all thought out, not spontaneous.

    It has all been planned, all been premeditated. Even these demands that seem so innocuous, such as that Congressional resolution to “commend” Muslims for Ramadan. “Well,” Congressmen thought to themselves, “why not? What’s the harm in that? Why shouldn’t Muslims be ‘commended’ for Ramadan?” But why should they? Is any group “commended” for such an observance? This was a deliberate attempt to inveigle Congressmen into a vote that then, minds being what they are, Congressmen would find themselves, if challenged on it, becoming defensive. They would begin to find reasons to convince themselves why the resolution was a good thing, why they were not wrong to vote for it. And so they have then moved just a bit, just a bit toward the Muslim point of view, even if they didn’t give a damn about, and paid no never mind to, that Resolution when it first came up, but merely cast that automatic, timid, and not-quite-innocuous “Yes.”

    The Jihad — that “radical behavior” — is back because it can be. Those OPEC trillions, those millions of Muslims allowed to settle deep within Infidel lands, behind what Muslims themselves are taught to regard as enemy lines, those Western technologies that have made possible, as never before, the spread, to both Muslim and non-Muslim populations, of propaganda on behalf of Islam and the Jihad — those are the three elements that explain why “radical attitudes,” as they are demurely called, are back. Though if the West had been paying attention not merely to Israel, but also to Muslim behavior toward non-Muslims in every land dominated by Muslims, they would have realized, long before now, long before 9/11/2001, that Islamic attitudes never were modified, and the limited improvements in the treatment of non-Muslims that obtained under European rule were often reversed, s-l-o-w-l-y or rapidly — it hardly matters which. It was happening.


  10. Speranza
    10 | March 4, 2013 5:35 pm

    Fritz Katz wrote:

    Why have comments been turned off in the headline thread?: “Porky Pig aka Jeb Bush not ruling out running in 2016″ — I have a few choice words I’d like to say about that.

    I fixed it. Comments are enabled.


  11. citizen_q
    11 | March 4, 2013 5:36 pm

    ugh, was at the doctor’s office this afternoon and assaulted by CNN in the waiting room. Apparently Valerie Plame is hawking a book as an ex-CIA operative, coincidentally if involved in some organization from what I could gather is about making the world safe for the Norks, Irainians and others to develop and use nuclear weapons.

    She did not quite put that way. She is working towards zero nuclear weapons. The organization is working the komrade zero to reduce and eliminate our nuclear stockpiles. They are talking with the Russians she says. Also, since she is not naive she realizes the Norks won’t listen to them.

    Following that there was a commercial from some qatar taqiyaa agency showing women in hajibs apparently working as professionals. All smiles and pleasant. Nothing to fear here! No men working with the women either. Perhaps they did not have time to breast-feed them per fatwa? They even had a hajibed female dwarf, how progressive!

    I felt a I needed a shower before my procedure.


  12. yenta-fada
    12 | March 4, 2013 5:36 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    eaglesoars wrote:
    Inexplicably, it turned out that a watch officer at the State Department had downgraded the NSA message to the embassy in Khartoum from the highest urgency to a routine cable
    inexplicably my ass.
    And Benghazi was about a movie that no one ever saw.
    I hate Henry Kissinger.

    It is amazing how much damage can be done by a single person.


  13. Speranza
    13 | March 4, 2013 5:37 pm

    Ironically, far from condemning the PLO, Moore held strongly pro-Arab, anti-Israeli views — believing that “the Arabs had legitimate grievances and were, in general, more wronged by Israel than wrong-doing against it.” Arab terrorists have often targeted the most pro-Arab Americans — as witness the recent slaying of Ambassador Christopher Stevens in Benghazi, Libya.

    That would be funny if it had not ended in tragedy.


  14. eaglesoars
    14 | March 4, 2013 5:37 pm

    I know this thread is about the perfidy in the State Dept with Arafat as a player in the drama. A lot of rumors have circulated about him. One person who knows the truth and told it is Ion Pacepa in Red Horizons.

    Red Horizons: The True Story of Nicolae and Elena Ceausescus’ Crimes, Lifestyle, and Corruption [Paperback]

    Pacepa is the highest level official to have defected from the Soviet Union. He was Ceausescus’ head of intelligence.

    Every fucking thing in Romania was wired. EVERYTHING. Arafat couldn’t fart when he went to visit without it being recorded. Pacepa just dumps all over him. He watched/listened to hours and hours of tapes. It would be difficult to find a more corrupt-to-the-bone human being.

    Read the book.


  15. Speranza
    15 | March 4, 2013 5:38 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Speranza wrote:
    eaglesoars wrote:
    Inexplicably, it turned out that a watch officer at the State Department had downgraded the NSA message to the embassy in Khartoum from the highest urgency to a routine cable
    inexplicably my ass.
    And Benghazi was about a movie that no one ever saw.

    I hate Henry Kissinger.
    It is amazing how much damage can be done by a single person.

    Kissinger was an amoral egotist and his boss Richard Nixon was a paranoid who self destructed.


  16. brookly red
    16 | March 4, 2013 5:39 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    It is amazing how much damage can be done by a single person.

    /just wait…


  17. Speranza
    17 | March 4, 2013 5:39 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    I know this thread is about the perfidy in the State Dept with Arafat as a player in the drama. A lot of rumors have circulated about him. One person who knows the truth and told it is Ion Pacepa in Red Horizons.
    Red Horizons: The True Story of Nicolae and Elena Ceausescus’ Crimes, Lifestyle, and Corruption [Paperback]
    Pacepa is the highest level official to have defected from the Soviet Union. He was Ceausescus’ head of intelligence.
    Every fucking thing in Romania was wired. EVERYTHING. Arafat couldn’t fart when he went to visit without it being recorded. Pacepa just dumps all over him. He watched/listened to hours and hours of tapes. It would be difficult to find a more corrupt-to-the-bone human being.
    Read the book.

    He wrote about Arafat’s homosexual acts with his body guards.
    Israel should have killed Arafat in the 1960′s. I am sure they had plenty of opportunities.


  18. eaglesoars
    18 | March 4, 2013 5:42 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Israel should have killed Arafat in the 1960′s. I am sure they had plenty of opportunities.

    Hell EVERYBODY should have killed him. Lord knows he had enough enemies even among his own.

    Whatever came of his exhumation?


  19. Speranza
    19 | March 4, 2013 5:48 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Speranza wrote:
    Israel should have killed Arafat in the 1960′s. I am sure they had plenty of opportunities.

    Hell EVERYBODY should have killed him. Lord knows he had enough enemies even among his own.
    Whatever came of his exhumation?

    I think they have kept his AIDS quiet. Killing Arafat would have been a righteous thing to do.


  20. eaglesoars
    21 | March 4, 2013 5:51 pm

    @ brookly red:

    Ah, thanks.


  21. yenta-fada
    22 | March 4, 2013 5:53 pm

    @ eaglesoars:

    From a book review on “Red Horizons”:

    “I just called the microphone monitoring center to ask about the ‘Fedayee,’” Arafat’s code name, explained Munteaunu. “After the meeting with the Comrade, he went directly to the guest house and had dinner. At this very moment, the ‘Fedayee’ is in his bedroom making love to his bodyguard. The one I knew was his latest lover. He’s playing tiger again. The officer monitoring his microphones connected me live with the bedroom, and the squawling almost broke my eardrums. Arafat was roaring like a tiger, and his lover yelping like a hyena.”

    Munteaunu continued: “I’ve never before seen so much cleverness, blood and filth all together in one man.” Munteaunu, wrote Pacepa, spent months pulling together secret reports from Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian intelligence agencies as well as Romanian files.

    “I used to think I knew just about everything there was to know about Rahman al-Qudwa,” Arafat’s real name, “about the construction engineer who made a fortune in Kuwait, about the passionate collector of racing cars, about Abu Amman,” Arafat’s nom de guerre, “and about my friend Yasser, with all his hysterics,” explained Munteaunu, handing Pacepa his final report on the PLO leader. “But I’ve got to admit that I didn’t really know anything about him.”

    Pacepa wrote: “The report was indeed an incredible account of fanaticism, of devotion to his cause, of tangled oriental political maneuvers, of lies, of embezzled PLO funds deposited in Swiss banks, and of homosexual relationships, beginning with his teacher when he was a teen-ager and ending with his current bodyguards. After reading the report, I felt a compulsion to take a shower whenever I had been kissed by Arafat, or even just shaken his hand.”


  22. eaglesoars
    23 | March 4, 2013 6:00 pm

    @ yenta-fada:

    Pacepa is a gold mine. I’m waiting for his next book “Deception” and I think it’s late -- should have been out by now.


  23. eaglesoars
    24 | March 4, 2013 6:01 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Rahman al-Qudwa,” Arafat’s real name

    Not sure about that. There’s a ‘Husseini” in there somewhere.


  24. brookly red
    25 | March 4, 2013 6:03 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Rahman al-Qudwa,” Arafat’s real name

    Not sure about that. There’s a ‘Husseini” in there somewhere.

    funny how that works…


  25. eaglesoars
    26 | March 4, 2013 6:05 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    funny how that works…

    yeah, ain’t it tho?

    I hope it turns out his cow of a wife poisoned him for the money. Imagine being married to THAT?


  26. heysoos
    27 | March 4, 2013 6:06 pm

    Arafat was race car enthusiast…big whoop
    1 pt


  27. brookly red
    28 | March 4, 2013 6:08 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    Arafat was race car enthusiast…big whoop
    1 pt

    really? so was Idi Amin


  28. brookly red
    29 | March 4, 2013 6:09 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    brookly red wrote:

    funny how that works…

    yeah, ain’t it tho?

    I hope it turns out his cow of a wife poisoned him for the money. Imagine being married to THAT?

    well really she was just a beard, so it’s not as bad as it sounds…


  29. Speranza
    30 | March 4, 2013 6:10 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    yenta-fada wrote:
    Rahman al-Qudwa,” Arafat’s real name

    Not sure about that. There’s a ‘Husseini” in there somewhere.

    He was an Egyptian.


  30. eaglesoars
    31 | March 4, 2013 6:10 pm

    Back to the article Speranza posted:

    This is the first part of his story:

    I hope in any subsequent parts the man questions the whole ‘clerical error’ spin on this.

    We are infested.


  31. heysoos
    32 | March 4, 2013 6:11 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    Arafat was race car enthusiast…big whoop
    1 pt

    really? so was Idi Amin

    so was John DeLorean…
    international coke dealer, but he did invent the muscle car, for which I am forever grateful


  32. eaglesoars
    33 | March 4, 2013 6:12 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    He was an Egyptian.

    I thought he was from Tunis? And, if memory serves (THERE’S a crap shoot!) -- his mother was a cousin of the WW II Mufti of Jerusalem.


  33. eaglesoars
    34 | March 4, 2013 6:14 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    but he did invent the muscle car, for which I am forever grateful

    NO!! Sit down.

    When I want a car thread I’ll pick a fight with dorian about ‘vettes.

    :lol:


  34. Bumr50
    35 | March 4, 2013 6:15 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    international coke dealer

    Pfft.

    A really, REALLY bad one.


  35. heysoos
    36 | March 4, 2013 6:16 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    but he did invent the muscle car, for which I am forever grateful
    NO!! Sit down.
    When I want a car thread I’ll pick a fight with dorian about ‘vettes.

    my point is , that if you only know someone in the public domain, you actually do not know them at all…you knew that


  36. Speranza
    37 | March 4, 2013 6:17 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Speranza wrote:
    He was an Egyptian.

    I thought he was from Tunis? And, if memory serves (THERE’S a crap shoot!) — his mother was a cousin of the WW II Mufti of Jerusalem.

    Arafat was most likely born in Cairo, he had nothing to do with Tunisia outside of being in exile there until Israel foolishly brought him back to the scene. His Arabic was always of an Egyptian dialect. Yes he was a member of the al-Husseini clan.


  37. heysoos
    38 | March 4, 2013 6:18 pm

    Bumr50 wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    international coke dealer
    Pfft.
    A really, REALLY bad one.

    well, there is that…he didn’t deliver coke like he delivered Firebirds


  38. Speranza
    39 | March 4, 2013 6:19 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Back to the article Speranza posted:
    This is the first part of his story:
    I hope in any subsequent parts the man questions the whole ‘clerical error’ spin on this.
    We are infested.

    I just keep finding these interesting articles. I am going to demand a raise from the admins here.


  39. yenta-fada
    40 | March 4, 2013 6:19 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Speranza wrote:
    He was an Egyptian.
    I thought he was from Tunis? And, if memory serves (THERE’S a crap shoot!) — his mother was a cousin of the WW II Mufti of Jerusalem.

    Tunisia took him in when he was out of favor.


  40. eaglesoars
    41 | March 4, 2013 6:19 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    that if you only know someone in the public domain, you actually do not know them at all…

    And if you actually do get to know them in real life, you usually regret it.

    Yeah, I do know.


  41. yenta-fada
    42 | March 4, 2013 6:19 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    eaglesoars wrote:
    Back to the article Speranza posted:
    This is the first part of his story:
    I hope in any subsequent parts the man questions the whole ‘clerical error’ spin on this.
    We are infested.
    I just keep finding these interesting articles. I am going to demand a raise from the admins here.

    Keep multiplying by zero…..


  42. brookly red
    43 | March 4, 2013 6:22 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Arafat was most likely born in Cairo

    what? they can’t find his birth certificate either?


  43. eaglesoars
    44 | March 4, 2013 6:22 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Arafat was most likely born in Cairo, he had nothing to do with Tunisia outside of being in exile there

    Ah. So where were/are his familial roots? In Egypt?

    I am going to demand a raise from the admins here.

    Hey, we can do email if you want………… :wink:


  44. heysoos
    45 | March 4, 2013 6:23 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    that if you only know someone in the public domain, you actually do not know them at all…
    And if you actually do get to know them in real life, you usually regret it.
    Yeah, I do know.

    I had a guitar hero for a couple of decades…as time went by I met him, and got to know him fairly well, directly and thru his band mated…in the end this guy was a monumental asshole, very difficult to get along and travel with…when I realized this, everything the guy said was contaminated and I lost interest in him and was very diappointed


  45. eaglesoars
    46 | March 4, 2013 6:30 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    when I realized this, everything the guy said was contaminated and I lost interest in him and was very diappointed

    heroes rarely are.

    Come to think of it, I can’t think of one. Not one. And that includes Dad who came damn close for many years.


  46. buzzsawmonkey
    47 | March 4, 2013 6:31 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    Arafat was most likely born in Cairo, he had nothing to do with Tunisia outside of being in exile there until Israel foolishly brought him back to the scene. His Arabic was always of an Egyptian dialect. Yes he was a member of the al-Husseini clan.

    His uncle was Hitler’s pal the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The one who recruited Muslims for the Waffen SS and encouraged Hitler to embark on the Final Solution.

    Never forget that the Israelis are, in effect, still fighting the last battles of WWII against not only the Nazis’ ideological heirs but, in some cases, real Nazis; a lot of fugitives from the Third Reich ended up settling in Egypt, Syria and Iraq, several of them rising to prominent government positions.


  47. eaglesoars
    48 | March 4, 2013 6:33 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Come to think of it, I can’t think of one.

    Yes I can.

    Edith Stein


  48. eaglesoars
    49 | March 4, 2013 6:36 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Never forget that the Israelis are, in effect, still fighting the last battles of WWII

    Oh, I think it goes back further than that.

    A lot further.


  49. heysoos
    50 | March 4, 2013 6:37 pm

    @ eaglesoars:
    almost everybody I’ve ever met in the music industry is very humble, wonders at the fact they even have a job, and are very receptive to folks outside the business, except the players…they can be arrogant and self centered..the people that take the stage and drive the thing foreward are often real assholes…the ‘roots’ people are different


  50. brookly red
    51 | March 4, 2013 6:42 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Never forget that the Israelis are, in effect, still fighting the last battles of WWII

    Oh, I think it goes back further than that.

    A lot further.

    funny that… right now Egypt is infested with locust :)


  51. buzzsawmonkey
    52 | March 4, 2013 6:42 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Oh, I think it goes back further than that.

    A lot further.

    The Arabs have been killing Jews in the Land of Israel certainly since the beginning of the modern Zionist movement in the 1880s. It goes back further than that, of course, too—but my point is that there has been a strong Nazi influence in the Arab world since before Israel was established, and that this Nazi influence (real, genuine, original, aged-in-the-vat Nazism, not any tepid neo-Nazi imitations) is still very much alive.

    Quite frankly, all of our putative leaders here in the US who are cozying up to the Arab jihadis are allying themselves with these vestigial remnants of the same people we defeated in WWII.


  52. eaglesoars
    53 | March 4, 2013 6:44 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    except the players…they can be arrogant and self centered..the people that take the stage and drive the thing foreward are often real assholes…

    Did you catch the post a few months ago of mine where I told how Jimmy Page actually talked to me and played the song I asked for? (Whole Lotta Love)

    Never got over it.

    As far as I’m concerned he can do no wrong.

    EVER.

    And he’s been an asshole his entire life.

    Talk to Olivia Harrison, Geo. Harrison’s wife. I would have shot the bastard.


  53. eaglesoars
    54 | March 4, 2013 6:47 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Quite frankly, all of our putative leaders here in the US who are cozying up to the Arab jihadis are allying themselves with these vestigial remnants of the same people we defeated in WWII.

    Oh yeah. Want me to get paranoid about why Pam Geller wasn’t invited to CPAC?

    No?

    Too bad.

    Grover Norquist.

    Now THERE is a bad actor.


  54. Speranza
    55 | March 4, 2013 6:48 pm

    @ eaglesoars:
    I like Jimmy Page and his buddy Jeff Beck.


  55. buzzsawmonkey
    56 | March 4, 2013 6:49 pm

    Any time some smarmy politician says to a Jewish audience, “Never Again,” that audience should rise up and and, at a minimum, boo the speaker into submission if that speaker has suggested at any time, in any way, that Israel should make accommodation with the spiritual heirs of the philosophy which sought within living memory to wipe them from the face of the earth.


  56. Speranza
    57 | March 4, 2013 6:49 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:
    Quite frankly, all of our putative leaders here in the US who are cozying up to the Arab jihadis are allying themselves with these vestigial remnants of the same people we defeated in WWII.

    Oh yeah. Want me to get paranoid about why Pam Geller wasn’t invited to CPAC?
    No?
    Too bad.
    Grover Norquist.
    Now THERE is a bad actor.

    I agree with you regarding Grover Norquist. CPAC not allowing GOPROUD to attend is another reason why we are headed for minority party status.


  57. eaglesoars
    58 | March 4, 2013 6:53 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    CPAC not allowing GOPROUD to attend is another reason why we are headed for minority party status.

    I’ve been meaning to check into that. If Log Cabin Republicans are attending, it may be about a cat fight, and not about gays per se.

    But I haven’t had time…….


  58. eaglesoars
    59 | March 4, 2013 6:54 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Any time some smarmy politician says to a Jewish audience, “Never Again,” that audience should rise up and and, at a minimum, boo the speaker into submission if that speaker has suggested at any time, in any way, that Israel should make accommodation with the spiritual heirs of the philosophy which sought within living memory to wipe them from the face of the earth.

    Godwin’s law, I’m afraid. Invoke ‘nazi’ and lose the argument.

    Doesn’t matter if it’s true.


  59. buzzsawmonkey
    60 | March 4, 2013 6:56 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    CPAC not allowing GOPROUD to attend is another reason why we are headed for minority party status.

    Not allowing a group or person to attend is stupid the worst high-schoolish way possible.

    I, personally, would want to meet with GOPROUD people: as a former supporter of same-sex marriage who is now utterly opposed to it, I would want to discuss and hammer out the issue so that some sort of modus vivendi could be reached, even if it were only to eventually agree to disagree on that one issue.


  60. heysoos
    61 | March 4, 2013 6:57 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    except the players…they can be arrogant and self centered..the people that take the stage and drive the thing foreward are often real assholes…
    Did you catch the post a few months ago of mine where I told how Jimmy Page actually talked to me and played the song I asked for? (Whole Lotta Love)
    Never got over it.
    As far as I’m concerned he can do no wrong.
    EVER.
    And he’s been an asshole his entire life.
    Talk to Olivia Harrison, Geo. Harrison’s wife. I would have shot the bastard.

    assholes are different for different people…I can understand being blown off on a hectic tour, but some stars look out for their fans and are happy to mingle with them


  61. buzzsawmonkey
    62 | March 4, 2013 7:00 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Godwin’s law, I’m afraid. Invoke ‘nazi’ and lose the argument.

    Doesn’t matter if it’s true.

    I’m not talking about any particular “argument”; Jews themselves should be aware—too many are not—of the Nazi connections of the “Palestinian” movement, and as such treat with appropriate contempt any politician who slithers before them to advocate accommodation with the spiritual heirs of Nazism.


  62. heysoos
    63 | March 4, 2013 7:02 pm

    Jeff Beck is about as ordinary as a man can be…yes, he’s filthy rich, but I grew up with filthy rich people…Beck is a international star, a living legend, but he loves his hot rods as much as any fan adulation…I really think I could set down with Jeff Beck and have a good convo


  63. waldensianspirit
    64 | March 4, 2013 7:02 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    Might as well invite the Congressional Black Caucus


  64. eaglesoars
    65 | March 4, 2013 7:04 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    but some stars look out for their fans and are happy to mingle with them

    Well, I certainly didn’t ‘mingle’ w/Page. I just popped up like a cork in front of the stage after crawling on the floor to get there.

    He found me amusing and called me ‘sweetheart’

    “What do you want sweetheart?”

    I’ll take it to my grave.

    Have lose ends from today’s work to tie up. Gotta go.


  65. waldensianspirit
    66 | March 4, 2013 7:05 pm

    First Lady’s Advice: Kids in Unsafe Neighborhoods Should Exercise Indoors

    Mooch finds her inner Biden


  66. heysoos
    67 | March 4, 2013 7:08 pm

    @ eaglesoars:
    @ eaglesoars:
    had I ever had the opportunity to meet Jimmy Page, I’m positive I would not pull it off properly…Levon Helm sat down and talked with me and I about had a heart attack…I’m pretty good with fame but Levon knocked me out, meeting Page would give me a stroke


  67. eaglesoars
    68 | March 4, 2013 7:08 pm

    Oh I forgot… Speranza, thanks for the thread. Good one.


  68. Speranza
    69 | March 4, 2013 7:13 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Oh I forgot… Speranza, thanks for the thread. Good one.

    Cool. I have an even better one scheduled for Thursday night.


  69. lobo91
    70 | March 4, 2013 7:13 pm

    waldensianspirit wrote:

    First Lady’s Advice: Kids in Unsafe Neighborhoods Should Exercise Indoors
    Mooch finds her inner Biden

    What’s her position on shotguns?


  70. Speranza
    71 | March 4, 2013 7:14 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    Jeff Beck is about as ordinary as a man can be…yes, he’s filthy rich, but I grew up with filthy rich people…Beck is a international star, a living legend, but he loves his hot rods as much as any fan adulation…I really think I could set down with Jeff Beck and have a good convo

    I have seen him in concert three times. A good guy with a nice sense of humor.


  71. Moe Katz
    72 | March 4, 2013 7:21 pm

    Meh, if Israel can now be friends with Germany, they can find some sort of modus vivendi, however cold, with the Palestine arabs.


  72. Bumr50
    73 | March 4, 2013 7:23 pm

    @ Speranza:

    There are people now slamming Dr. Ben Carson for saying that they should at least be able to attend.

    The Washington Post’s Jennifer Rubin writes this morning: “The Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) is taking a lot of guff, rightly so, I think, from conservatives over excluding New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) and groups like GOProud from its gathering. When the newest conservative hero, Dr. Ben Carson, tells you you’ve screwed up, maybe it is time to rethink the strategy of systematically shrinking the tent.”
    And there you have it in a nutshell: Rubin, The Washington Post’s establishment conservative commentator, the National Review, which she cites as collateral reinforcement, and Carson.
    What happened is that the delightful Dr. Carson said recently that Christie and GOProud should be invited to CPAC 2013. Overnight, it brought him to new status as poster boy for the conservative establishment — bad news for Bush and Christie. Carson is sure to get the nod now, pitched as the anti-Obama and the new voice of establishment Republicans in 2016.
    But does Carson’s dog hunt? Does he shoot grizzly bears and cook them and eat them like Sarah Palin? Carson is a genuine individual, and it is unfortunate for him that he has been commandeered by the old school and the nostalgicos, just as new directions are arising. When I wrote about him here a few weeks ago (“Ben Carson: A star is born,”), after he first appeared in public, he drew six viewer comments. And my essay on Ted Cruz, when he first appeared in Washington (“Ted Cruz: The Sarah Palin phenomenon,”), drew 126 comments.

    via The Hill

    I can’t believe that I agree with Rubin.

    It’s a self-inflicted wound when they pull crap like this.

    It’s bad enough dealing with all of the lies and slander, why create a situation where all that you are doing is reinforcing the Left’s meme that the Right is “intolerant.”

    We can argue all day about what that means and how it’s been perverted, but the fact remains that it’s a concept that exists in the minds of millions of Americans.

    Not allowing ANYONE (within reason) to attend a conference makes the group that you purportedly represent look as though they’re not even interested in hearing what people have to say.


  73. buzzsawmonkey
    74 | March 4, 2013 7:26 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Meh, if Israel can now be friends with Germany, they can find some sort of modus vivendi, however cold, with the Palestine arabs.

    Congratulations on winning the Stupidest Comment of the Day Award.


  74. Moe Katz
    75 | March 4, 2013 7:28 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    That’s an insult, not a rational argument. You can do better.


  75. heysoos
    76 | March 4, 2013 7:28 pm

    Speranza wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    Jeff Beck is about as ordinary as a man can be…yes, he’s filthy rich, but I grew up with filthy rich people…Beck is a international star, a living legend, but he loves his hot rods as much as any fan adulation…I really think I could set down with Jeff Beck and have a good convo

    I have seen him in concert three times. A good guy with a nice sense of humor.

    a Beck show is a real treat…he may be the best electric guitar player that ever lived


  76. Moe Katz
    77 | March 4, 2013 7:28 pm

    bbl


  77. buzzsawmonkey
    78 | March 4, 2013 7:29 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    That’s an insult, not a rational argument. You can do better.

    You want a better insult? OK—you’re a brain-dead jackass with absolutely no analytical ability or historical knowledge.


  78. Moe Katz
    79 | March 4, 2013 7:30 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    That’s an insult, not a rational argument. You can do better.
    You want a better insult? OK—you’re a brain-dead jackass with absolutely no analytical ability or historical knowledge.

    Right. See you later.


  79. Moe Katz
    80 | March 4, 2013 7:47 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:
    And Rodney Dangerfield is rolling over in his grave.


  80. heysoos
    81 | March 4, 2013 7:55 pm

    some people call ahead for Chinese, others dial up a pizza…I order weed and it’s delivered, within minutes or at most a couple hours…some things still work


  81. yenta-fada
    82 | March 4, 2013 8:06 pm

    @ Moe Katz:

    Conflating the Germans in defeat and radical Islam in ascendance is simply incorrect. There are so many differences, I can only make a start.
    For one thing, the so-called “civilized” world has appeased Islamists since Arafat appeared at the UN in guerilla warfare uniform.

    The International Press along with the United Nations have made the Palestinians appear like victims of Israeli oppression. The Israelis never kicked out the Arabs, but Jews were expelled from all Muslim lands in 1948.

    The “useful idiots” of every stripe have made common cause with Islamists against “Zionists”. Zionism is just a code word for Jews.

    The Palestinians (Jordanians and Egyptians) never existed as “a people” until propaganda made them so.

    No Arab nation allowed these Palestinians to integrate into their nations. They kept them from citizenship and never got called on it by the International Community. Instead, everyone blamed the Jooooos.

    I could go on and on. This blog has, since the swamp, discussed every issue related to the false claims of the right of return from generations of “refugees”.
    Stop insulting Buzzsawmonkey because you have not done your homework.


  82. yenta-fada
    83 | March 4, 2013 8:12 pm

    @ yenta-fada:

    Better said by Nekama’s Hammer:

    1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koranimals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity -- making the desert bloom -- while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

    2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

    3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

    4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

    5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

    6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

    7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

    8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

    9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

    10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

    11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?


  83. eaglesoars
    84 | March 4, 2013 8:17 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Meh, if Israel can now be friends with Germany, they can find some sort of modus vivendi, however cold, with the Palestine arabs.

    One difference.

    The Germans were defeated. And they knew it. They still know it.

    Once the Palestinians are defeated………

    In other news, fuck off.

    back to work………..


  84. yenta-fada
    85 | March 4, 2013 8:20 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    Meh, if Israel can now be friends with Germany, they can find some sort of modus vivendi, however cold, with the Palestine arabs.
    One difference.
    The Germans were defeated. And they knew it. They still know it.
    Once the Palestinians are defeated………
    In other news, fuck off.
    back to work………..

    How come you always say things better than I do?


  85. Moe Katz
    86 | March 4, 2013 8:27 pm

    @ yenta-fada:
    Yenta, you memorized “Myths and Facts?” You’re so impressive on macroeconomics, I don’t know why you can’t approach the Middle East with similar intelligence and grasp of complexity.


  86. Moe Katz
    87 | March 4, 2013 8:28 pm

    eaglesoars wrote:

    In other news, fuck off.

    I so love the genteel Republican ladies of Blogmocracy!


  87. buzzsawmonkey
    88 | March 4, 2013 8:28 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Yenta, you memorized “Myths and Facts?” You’re so impressive on macroeconomics, I don’t know why you can’t approach the Middle East with similar intelligence and grasp of complexity.

    Oh, you can do better than…no, you can’t.


  88. yenta-fada
    89 | March 4, 2013 8:34 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Exactly.


  89. 90 | March 4, 2013 8:39 pm

    The nations around Syria Palaestina have had a problem with the locals since before Israel even showed up. Seriously, read Manetho. Or the Pharaonic literature about the “Retenu”. I like the passages which describe the Canaanites as crocodiles best.

    Israel can’t appease its neighbours, because it’s in the way. Syria can’t take over Egypt and Egypt can’t take over Syria. Simple as that. If there weren’t any Jews there they’d just pick on the Palestinians… oh wait, they already do.

    Israel’s best bet is to become so powerful, and stay so powerful, that everybody leaves it alone.


  90. Moe Katz
    91 | March 4, 2013 8:43 pm

    Zimriel wrote:

    Israel can’t appease its neighbours, because it’s in the way. Syria can’t take over Egypt and Egypt can’t take over Syria. Simple as that. If there weren’t any Jews there they’d just pick on the Palestinians… oh wait, they already do.

    There are a range of options in between capitulation and total intransigence, and therein lies the challenge. Too much black-and-white thinking limits one’s choices.

    Off to the gym!


  91. Moe Katz
    92 | March 4, 2013 8:44 pm

    And to all, I suggest reading, if you haven’t already, Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s “The Iron Wall.” I think Jabo was right.


  92. yenta-fada
    93 | March 4, 2013 8:48 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    And to all, I suggest reading, if you haven’t already, Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s “The Iron Wall.” I think Jabo was right.

    All hail the superior intellect of Moe Katz. /


  93. Moe Katz
    94 | March 4, 2013 8:48 pm

    And what I’m hearing here is not what Jabo was all about. He foresaw an accommodation, but from a position of strength.


  94. Moe Katz
    95 | March 4, 2013 8:48 pm

    yenta-fada wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    And to all, I suggest reading, if you haven’t already, Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s “The Iron Wall.” I think Jabo was right.
    All hail the superior intellect of Moe Katz. /

    Read Jabotinsky and shaddup.


  95. lobo91
    96 | March 4, 2013 8:48 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    Now you see how we feel having to put up with people like Pelosi and the Kennedys in our club…


  96. buzzsawmonkey
    97 | March 4, 2013 8:51 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Read Jabotinsky and shaddup.

    Explain why you think what Jabotinsky wrote in 1923 is relevant today, or shut up.


  97. CynicalConservative
    98 | March 4, 2013 8:54 pm

    Fights in the morning, fights at night. Fuck it (sorry CW), I’m buying gold.

    /galt


  98. buzzsawmonkey
    99 | March 4, 2013 8:54 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Now you see how we feel having to put up with people like Pelosi and the Kennedys in our club…

    I am by no means convinced that “Moe Katz” is a Jew, if that is what you mean. It is my experience that people who use stereotypical Jewish proper names as screen nics tend to be trolls attempting to pass themselves off as Jews in order to argue meretricious points of view without being called out as antisemites. There are exceptions, of course—but I have not seen anything yet to convince me that “Moe Katz” such an exception.


  99. lobo91
    100 | March 4, 2013 8:55 pm

    CynicalConservative wrote:

    Fights in the morning, fights at night. Fuck it (sorry CW), I’m buying gold.
    /galt

    What are you going to do with gold, hit people with it?

    Buy ammunition. And food.


  100. CynicalConservative
    101 | March 4, 2013 8:57 pm

    @ lobo91:
    Doing that too.

    /galt


  101. lobo91
    102 | March 4, 2013 8:57 pm

    @ buzzsawmonkey:

    I am by no means convinced that “Moe Katz” is a Jew, if that is what you mean.

    It was a joke, yes.

    As to his identity, I’ll leave that to you. Far from my area of expertise. To the extent that I have one.


  102. brookly red
    103 | March 4, 2013 8:57 pm

    hmmmm http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/04/biden-aipac-speech-iran-threat
    Barack Obama’s threats to use military force to prevent Iran securing a nuclear weapon are more than idle bluffs, vice-president Joe Biden told the biggest pro-Israeli lobbying group Aipac on Monday.

    Biden said that while the US preferred a diplomatic solution to the standoff with Iran, a military option remained on the table.

    “The president of the United States cannot, and does not, bluff. President Barack Obama is not bluffing,” Biden told the audience in Washington.

    why am I doubtful…


  103. yenta-fada
    104 | March 4, 2013 9:03 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    Read Jabotinsky and shaddup.
    Explain why you think what Jabotinsky wrote in 1923 is relevant today, or shut up.

    Moe is a hit and run kind of guy. Doesn’t engage in real debate. He is also an unoriginal kind of name-caller.


  104. Moe Katz
    105 | March 4, 2013 9:03 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    I am by no means convinced that “Moe Katz” is a Jew, if that is what you mean.

    That’s really pathetic. If I don’t agree with you, I’m a goy. Some buzz saw.


  105. lobo91
    106 | March 4, 2013 9:04 pm

    @ brookly red:

    why am I doubtful…

    I can think of a number of reasons, starting with “consider the source.”

    Biden has a history of saying whatever pops into his head at the moment.

    And I can’t think of a single time that Obama has ever publicly said that we would attack Iran. Every time he’s been pressed on it, he says some crap like “all options remain on the table.”


  106. buzzsawmonkey
    107 | March 4, 2013 9:06 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    That’s really pathetic. If I don’t agree with you, I’m a goy. Some buzz saw.

    Non-denial denial, I see, coupled with some childish neener-neener. And still no substance.

    Meanwhile, how’s the gym working out for you, blogging on the treadmill? You were going there about fifteen/twenty minutes ago—so you said.


  107. yenta-fada
    108 | March 4, 2013 9:08 pm

    Maybe this is an old joke>

    A young guy from North Dakota moves to Florida and goes to a big “everything under one roof” department store looking for a job.
    The Manager says, “Do you have any sales experience?” The kid says “Yeah. I was a vacuum salesman back in North Dakota.”
    Well, the boss was unsure, but he liked the kid and figured he’d give him a shot, so he gave him the job.”You start tomorrow. I’ll come down after we close and see how you did.”

    His first day on the job was rough, but he got through it. After the store was locked up, the boss came down to the sales floor.
    “How many customers bought something from you today?” The kid frowns and looks at the floor and mutters, “One”. The boss says “Just one?!!? Our sales people average sales to 20 to 30 customers a day.
    That will have to change, and soon, if you’d like to continue your employment here. We have very strict standards for our sales force here in Florida. One sale a day might have been acceptable in North Dakota, but you’re not on the farm anymore, son.”

    The kid took his beating, but continued to look at his shoes, so the boss felt kinda bad for chewing him out on his first day. He asked (semi-sarcastically), “So, how much was your one sale for?” The kid looks up at his boss and says “$101,237.65″. The boss, astonished, says $101,237.65?!? What the heck did you sell?”

    The kid says, “Well, first, I sold him some new fish hooks. Then I sold him a new fishing rod to go with his new hooks. Then I asked him where he was going fishing and he said down the coast, so I told him he was going to need a boat, so we went down to the boat department and I sold him a twin engine Chris Craft. Then he said he didn’t think his Honda Civic would pull it, so I took him down to the automotive department and sold him that 4x4 Expedition.”

    The boss said “A guy came in here to buy a fish hook and you sold him a boat and a TRUCK!?” The kid said “No, the guy came in here to buy tampons for his wife, and I said, ‘Dude, your weekend’s shot, you should go fishing..


  108. Moe Katz
    109 | March 4, 2013 9:08 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    Read Jabotinsky and shaddup.
    Explain why you think what Jabotinsky wrote in 1923 is relevant today, or shut up.

    No, you explain what you think has changed so much about the Arab mind and culture since 1923 as to make Jabotinsky irrelevant.


  109. brookly red
    110 | March 4, 2013 9:09 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    @ brookly red:

    why am I doubtful…

    I can think of a number of reasons, starting with “consider the source.”

    Biden has a history of saying whatever pops into his head at the moment.

    And I can’t think of a single time that Obama has ever publicly said that we would attack Iran. Every time he’s been pressed on it, he says some crap like “all options remain on the table.”

    but yet there have been some “unfortunate accidents” in Iran and O has shown a blood lust when it can be done remotely… it might be.


  110. Moe Katz
    111 | March 4, 2013 9:10 pm

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:

    Moe Katz wrote:
    That’s really pathetic. If I don’t agree with you, I’m a goy. Some buzz saw.
    Non-denial denial, I see, coupled with some childish neener-neener. And still no substance.
    Meanwhile, how’s the gym working out for you, blogging on the treadmill? You were going there about fifteen/twenty minutes ago—so you said.

    Thanks for the encouragement, Buzz. I”m outta here!


  111. Speranza
    112 | March 4, 2013 9:12 pm

    heysoos wrote:

    Speranza wrote:
    heysoos wrote:
    Jeff Beck is about as ordinary as a man can be…yes, he’s filthy rich, but I grew up with filthy rich people…Beck is a international star, a living legend, but he loves his hot rods as much as any fan adulation…I really think I could set down with Jeff Beck and have a good convo
    I have seen him in concert three times. A good guy with a nice sense of humor.

    a Beck show is a real treat…he may be the best electric guitar player that ever lived

    I am doing one of his concerts for an Overnight Open Thread.


  112. buzzsawmonkey
    113 | March 4, 2013 9:13 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    No, you explain what you think has changed so much about the Arab mind and culture since 1923 as to make Jabotinsky irrelevant.

    It appears Baby doesn’t understand the way reasoned discourse works. If you cite to something, it is up to you to explain why you believe it is relevant, and then defend that relevancy should it be challenged.


  113. yenta-fada
    114 | March 4, 2013 9:13 pm

    CynicalConservative wrote:

    Fights in the morning, fights at night. Fuck it (sorry CW), I’m buying gold.
    /galt

    We’re not fighting. We are ‘conversating’.


  114. buzzsawmonkey
    115 | March 4, 2013 9:14 pm

    Moe Katz wrote:

    Thanks for the encouragement, Buzz. I”m outta here!

    If only. And that’s Mr. Buzz to you.


  115. brookly red
    118 | March 4, 2013 9:36 pm

    lobo91 wrote:

    Man Tries To Rob Bank With Toy Gun… Promptly Shot In The Face With A Real Gun…

    oops

    we protect our money with guns, but not our children… strange country.


  116. darkwords
    119 | March 4, 2013 9:45 pm

    @ 84 eaglesoars: lol my dad once had a long one hour talk with me. About half way through he called me a “dumbass”. That is all I remember about the argument and his point. It moved the level of discourse down quite a bit.


  117. Speranza
    120 | March 4, 2013 9:59 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    bad shit… http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/04/egyptian-christians-allege-torture-at-hands-libyan-islamists/?test=latestnews

    Why am I not surprised that Islamists love to torture people?


  118. Speranza
    121 | March 4, 2013 10:00 pm

    darkwords wrote:

    @ 84 eaglesoars: lol my dad once had a long one hour talk with me. About half way through he called me a “dumbass”. That is all I remember about the argument and his point. It moved the level of discourse down quite a bit.

    That sounds like a typical discussion between a liberal professor and any conservative leaning student.


  119. Da_Beerfreak
    122 | March 4, 2013 11:46 pm

    brookly red wrote:

    lobo91 wrote:

    Man Tries To Rob Bank With Toy Gun… Promptly Shot In The Face With A Real Gun…

    oops

    we protect our money with guns, but not our children… strange country.

    That is because money is much more important then children; just ask Planed Parenthood if you don’t believe me… :evil:


  120. 123 | March 5, 2013 1:05 am

    @ Da_Beerfreak:
    Toy guns are for robbing toys.


  121. 124 | March 5, 2013 1:08 am

    Then there’s this.
    http://www.tamponcrafts.com/gun.html


  122. Calo
    125 | March 5, 2013 1:26 am

    @ Bunk X:
    Heh, spud guns gone wild with inappropriate building tubes.


  123. 126 | March 5, 2013 3:00 am

    /tampon/
    /tampoff/


  124. 127 | March 5, 2013 9:52 am

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    when I realized this, everything the guy said was contaminated and I lost interest in him and was very diappointed
    heroes rarely are.
    Come to think of it, I can’t think of one. Not one. And that includes Dad who came damn close for many years.

    That’s why our church doesn’t have celebrities or heroes, only saints, and that happens only after the person has passed on some time ago.

    eaglesoars wrote:

    buzzsawmonkey wrote:
    Quite frankly, all of our putative leaders here in the US who are cozying up to the Arab jihadis are allying themselves with these vestigial remnants of the same people we defeated in WWII.
    Oh yeah. Want me to get paranoid about why Pam Geller wasn’t invited to CPAC?
    No?
    Too bad.
    Grover Norquist.
    Now THERE is a bad actor.

    That he is.

    But then, I didn’t see him on the speaker’s roster this year either (though admittedly it wasn’t final at that time).


  125. Speranza
    128 | March 5, 2013 11:52 am

    eaglesoars wrote:

    heysoos wrote:
    when I realized this, everything the guy said was contaminated and I lost interest in him and was very diappointed

    heroes rarely are.
    Come to think of it, I can’t think of one. Not one. And that includes Dad who came damn close for many years.

    Admire the talent, not the person.


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